posted Sep-28-2005 03:30 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by topdown:
Wierd observation from week 3

So as stated before I am doing runs of
maff-15
maff-10
maff-5
maff
long run i vary

Well my maff = 135

Last week, and now this week when keeping my HR below 120 and 125 the fastest I can manage is a 6:00m/k
As soon as I go above 125 either 130 or 135 I can easily run a 5:30m/k. There is no slow graduation to this. I averaged 127 today @ 5:30 and 122 yesterday at 6:00. Conditions were very similar. Noticed the same thing last week. It almost seems like I should just do
Maff-10
Maff-10
Maff
Maff

long run is Maff-10 to Maff, varying.

Hmmm... interesting

David.

---

I'll let LEITNER chime in on this one.

However, physical conditions, temp., humidity, medicine ....almost anything can effect one's HR.

IP: Logged

posted Sep-28-2005 09:08 PM               

Or I could just be blowing smoke

IP: Logged

posted Sep-30-2005 06:20 PM               

Just got back from out of town, and getting ready to fly again.
topdown - I admit I can't fully tell what you are describing -
I'd hesitate to surmising anything without knowing the temp,
dewpoint, resting heart rate, and specifics of the course (mostly
in terms of hills). Additionally what paces and heart rates were
in the first few miles (before being warmed up) and later. However,
on the one hand, minor fluctuations are likely on a daily or even
weekly basis (although, if there were a drop-down over a week, I
would suspect that there was a subtle reason why), but on the
other hand, if you just keep it all under MAF, any way you slice it
and any zones below where you run are consistent with the method,
so finding the zones that work for you is best. It is conceivable that
there may be a lower threshold pace below which you may actual require
more effort because of how it breaks down your stride or something.
Watch your progress over a 3 week period (try to record temps and
dewpoints - sometimes a change in dewpoint of 5 degrees is not
really apparent but will have a significant effect on the pace) and
see how things go.

------------------
MyRunningLog

MyStuff

IP: Logged

posted Oct-02-2005 02:52 PM               

7:32/154, 8:12/160, 8:03/160, 8:04/160, 8:10/159,
7:52/154, 8:38/144, 8:28/163, 8:39/160, 8:18/165,
8:04/170, 8:15/166, 7:43/168, 8:50/177, 7:31/187,
6:54/191, 1:16/196

Average pace was 8:03 and avg HR was 165 (about MAF
+ 20) and I felt like it wouldn't have
been much of an issue to run it 10 minutes or more
faster, if I were to have at least a week or so to rest
afterwards.

I hooked up with a friend of mine at around mile 3 or
so, and I felt that running with him would help keep me
under control and prevent me from trying to run this as
a competitive race. It did just that. However, with
about 2.5 miles to go, just starting up the last big
hill, I decided to kick it up a notch in intensity. What was
amazing was how easy heart rates of 175 or so felt late
in the race and how I was still able to keep up conversation.
The last mile I ran in 6:40 (which you can't gather from the
splits above), but I did yet another test of my
"short distance/long distance" max heart rate phenomenon.
Recall that in my track tests, my professional VO2Max test,
and in virtually every 5k race I have run, I have seen max
heart rates between 189-190, very consistently, at the absolute
limit of my body's ability to move. With a couple of miles to
go, I brought my heart rate up to 190, kept the pace at that
for about 1/2 mile or so, as it didn't feel very stressful, then
increased to 195 for about a mile, then brought it into the
low 200s for the last 1/2 mile or so of the race (letting it dip
up and down with the hills). Even in the low 200s, it really
didn't feel that bad to sustain it for a while. I never maxed
it out today, but in previous races greater than 10 miles, I've
hit 210, still with some gas in the tank. I feel fine now, as
I hopefully will for the next several days. Easy running
until Thursday, focused mainly on getting acclimated to
the altitude. We'll see how my "triple-20s" have prepared me
to do 3 straight marathons on Thursday, Friday, and Saturday.
Other than my last 3 or 4 miles today, I plan to use about the
same level of effort in the triple that I did today, but the pace
will likely be slower due to altitude effects.

------------------
MyRunningLog

MyStuff

[This message has been edited by leitnerj (edited Oct-02-2005).]

IP: Logged

posted Oct-02-2005 02:58 PM               

IP: Logged

posted Oct-02-2005 09:19 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by leitnerj:
Funny, my last post didn't bump this up. Here's another try ...

---

Here we go! I wish I was there cheering you on in Tahoe!

Hopefully, you'll have a wonderful, successful, and painless run during your TRIPLE!

I'll be thinking of you, Leitner!

IP: Logged

posted Oct-02-2005 11:41 PM            

IP: Logged

posted Oct-03-2005 11:40 AM            

IP: Logged

posted Oct-03-2005 11:46 AM               

------------------
MyRunningLog

MyStuff

IP: Logged

posted Oct-03-2005 12:53 PM               

------------------
MyRunningLog

MyStuff

IP: Logged

posted Oct-04-2005 11:50 AM               

This is my first post.

I have been reading this forum with great interest...I have been training using the Maffetone approach now for almost 2 years with some success. Running is easier, training is more enjoyable and I am injury free!

My background is that I am a former sub 2:50 marathoner/ sub 34-10K runner/ sub 17-5K er (back in the 80's) who has become an ultrarunner. I regularly run and enjoy running 100 mile trail runs in the Rocky Mountains at altitude. Some I have done is Wasatch in Utah and Hardrock in Colorado (I live in NH). So you can see that I have changed gears in my running life.

Now that I am finished with my year's racing, I am now returning to complete low HR training and it is difficult yet again to run this slow, although I am much faster at the HR than I was a couple of years ago. My reasons for starting was what I thought was a hamstring injury that actually turned out to be a herniated disc from a fall pinching the sciatic nerve. The Maff running allowed it to heal (with the help of a Chiropractor) and allowed me to train while it healed.

My question is has anyone here read or discovered "Slow Burn" by Stu Mittleman? I have been reading this book with a lot of interest because Stu is an ultrarunner and was the American record holder in the 100 mile and up distances. He switched over with Phil Maffetone's guidance to a low HR program and improved even more, sometimes winning international races.

Anyway, sorry for taking this a bit off topic, but thought this may interest all of you also.

Thanks...

IP: Logged

posted Oct-04-2005 01:25 PM            

i'm 38 years old, 205 lbs male running a relatively low but consistent mileage (10 mpw) for the last 2.5 years. I read about HRM training a few months back and decided to try it.

i've been running mostly under maff (142) for the last 12 weeks. it has been agonizingly slow, about 2 hours just to cover 10k but so far i have been enjoying my runs.

i know i'm embarassingly slow (most probably because of my weight) but i've always been trying to find a way to improve eversince. hopefully, i'm on the right track with HR training.

now i'm about to enter my first 10k fun race and i'm really worried with my time above.

since i never ran this distance above maff before, i honestly don't know how hard I can push it above maff to finish within the time limit of 1:30 (before they haul me off the road) and without burning out.

any idea what HR i should target and maintain to finish the 10k decently, given my current limitations.

any advise is welcome.

many thanks,

aris

IP: Logged

posted Oct-04-2005 04:33 PM               

We're routing for you!!!!!!!!

Joanne

------------------
Joanne

my profile

my log

IP: Logged

posted Oct-04-2005 07:06 PM            

IP: Logged

posted Oct-04-2005 11:52 PM               

I really enjoyed Mittleman's book as my interests lie primarily in ultras. Maffetone has some good credentials with Stu, Mark Allen, and Mike Pigg being the names I know he had coached.

Back in the 80's I was a triathlete and sometimes cyclist with my fastest paces around 6:30ish. I never liked short races and rarely feel warmed-up for at least an hour with 2 hours still feeling short. However, I fell often to the overtraining gremlins and was injured a bit and then just burned out. I tried several times over the past 10 years plus to get started again with an ankle injury from soccer finally taking me out.

Low HR training and, likewise, the help of a great chiropractor, I have had minimal no issues with my ankle for the past 8 mos. I have had 4 runs now over 3 hours with my longest at 03:31:00 and felt completely fine afterwards. This past Sunday I managed 03:14:00 taking in no calories (used GU and Clifshots on the other long ones) and finished with plenty of energy. No special preparation other than not sleeping much being a little dehydrated when I started. I do run with a hand-held water bottle in a location where it can be refilled every few miles.

I run extremely slow and am getting impatient with my speed. I just lowered my HR target by 5 bpm as I had not made progress over the past 10 weeks. We'll see how that goes. My internal voices have been arguing back and forth as to do this or add some form of speed work. Biologically and systemically the low HR training makes sense and I'm just going on faith a bit.

Regarding ultras - what HR range do you maintain during races? My thought was that it had to be extremely low to be able to sustain your energy level. I'm aiming to get down to 9 or 10 minute miles at < 137 bpm before my first trail marathon or 50k. What HR range do you maintain during your races?

IP: Logged

posted Oct-05-2005 12:08 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by ultrasteve:
Hi all...

This is my first post.

I have been reading this forum with great interest...I have been training using the Maffetone approach now for almost 2 years with some success. Running is easier, training is more enjoyable and I am injury free!

My background is that I am a former sub 2:50 marathoner/ sub 34-10K runner/ sub 17-5K er (back in the 80's) who has become an ultrarunner. I regularly run and enjoy running 100 mile trail runs in the Rocky Mountains at altitude. Some I have done is Wasatch in Utah and Hardrock in Colorado (I live in NH). So you can see that I have changed gears in my running life.

Now that I am finished with my year's racing, I am now returning to complete low HR training and it is difficult yet again to run this slow, although I am much faster at the HR than I was a couple of years ago. My reasons for starting was what I thought was a hamstring injury that actually turned out to be a herniated disc from a fall pinching the sciatic nerve. The Maff running allowed it to heal (with the help of a Chiropractor) and allowed me to train while it healed.

My question is has anyone here read or discovered "Slow Burn" by Stu Mittleman? I have been reading this book with a lot of interest because Stu is an ultrarunner and was the American record holder in the 100 mile and up distances. He switched over with Phil Maffetone's guidance to a low HR program and improved even more, sometimes winning international races.

Anyway, sorry for taking this a bit off topic, but thought this may interest all of you also.

Thanks...

---

Hi Steve-I've never heard of "Slow Burn", but you ran Hardrock? I'm impressed. I must keep going with the maffetone stuff. If it's good enough for someone who ran Hardrock, it's good enough for me! Thanks for posting.

IP: Logged

posted Oct-05-2005 06:37 AM            

that's exactly what i'm going to do - probably hit a pace a tad higher than maff then play it by feel... never mind if i finish way behind time.

however, i'm still secretly hoping my strict maff training for the last 12 weeks is gonna gonna pay off and allow me to finish this 10k with some pride

anyway, i'm just curious as to what I should do next after this 10k. Should I continue to train exclusively under maff or start to incorporate more higher HR runs? My immediate goal is to run every 10k run that pops up locally and hopefully continue to improve my dismal time. Long term goal is to run a half.

thanks so much.

aris

IP: Logged

posted Oct-05-2005 07:22 AM               

I don't wear my monitor during my races....it's just another thing I have to think about/deal with, so I don't. Over the past couple of years I have learned to feel the proper pace in order to be able to finish. One thing that has helped me is using Maffetone's thoughts on starting by walking to get into fat burning immedietly. I tried this method first at the Bighorn 100 in Wyoming last summer by walking, then walking and jogging the first 4 miles. I moved up from almost last to finishing in 13th place. I felt great all day (and night and next day). I'll bet my HR was pretty low, probabaly close to or below Maf.

I did wear my monitor as an experiment in last fall's Mountain Masochist 50 miler in Va. The experiment was a success/failure at the same time. I ran my worst time, 1.5 hours slower than my best, but ran negative splits and finished really strong...so for racing you have to have the confidence that training "in the zone" will get you to the finish line in one piece, but that the monitor just doesn't "allow" me to race. I'm sure when I ran my best there (before I was a HR monitor user in training), my HR was probabaly screaming. I remember really hurting in the last 10 miles and needing to eat several gels to keep going, but I did run better!

I am 53 year's old, so I now don't race like that. I much prefer the more relaxed method of easing into the race and moving up through the field, which low HR training has taught me. I also prefer the 100 milers, which give you more time to do that...

In my sig below is a link to my photo album and pictures of most of the races I've been to. My wife also runs all of the same ultras I run. :-)

------------------
Steve
http://community.webshots.com/user/ultrastevep

IP: Logged

posted Oct-05-2005 07:45 AM               

Slow Burn is a great book...I highly recommend it. Stu gets into the why's of the Maffetone program. It is a much better written book than Maffetone's. One fine example of his writing is his experience during a 6 day race in France. He has just taken on Maffetone as his coach and his orders were to begin by walking and split his running and walking up during the days and nights. When Stu began the race by walking he could hear boos and "Yankee go home", as he fell into last place....but by day 3 something happened. He started gaining on the field and began to pass those who had started faster. By the 5th day he was in 2nd place, chasing the leader, whom he never caught, but that's ok because he was the world record holder, who Stu had a lot of respect for. Stu ended up running a new American record, finishing 2nd place in an international race, thanks to his teaming up with Phil Maffetone.

I have been to Hardrock every year since 2000, except for one year it was cancelled due to forest fires (2002). Hardrock is very doable...you just have to jog and hike for two days, keep up your calories and cope with the altitude. You spend most of your time up over 12,000', which is what does most of us in there. I have been pulled due to medical conditions three times....once for a mild case of HAPE and the other two times for electrolyte issues. I had to get 2 bags of IV solution last year...not fun.

Anyway, I just wanted to thank all of you for this discussion. It's great reading of all of your successes using the Maff. As one coach told me when I began the program, "You have to have faith that it will work, so stick with it!"

I just ran my last 100 of the year three weeks ago (Wasatch Front), so I am now struggling, getting back into the Maff, walking the hills and jogging so slow the ants are passing me ;-) It will pay off come next Spring. When I started the program I was running 12 mpm on a treadmill, now 2 year's later i regularly run my hour luchtime runs around 8-9 mpm at the same HR as those 12 mpm's. I am hoping that within time (probabaly years), I will get back to my old training pace of 7 mpm!

One more thing...has anyone ever heard of Ed Whitlock? He is a 74 year old Canadian who regularly breaks 3 hours in the marathon. His training is 3 hours a day (about 20 miles) around a cemetary at a 9mpm pace. He is doing Maff and not even knowing it....if it works for him, it'll work for everyone!

------------------
Steve

http://community.webshots.com/user/ultrastevep

IP: Logged

posted Oct-05-2005 08:02 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Run Page Run:
Hey Aris, I'm practically a newbie here-have only been running for four months, 44yr. old male and i run 4.5-5.5 miles every other night and 6- 7 on the weekend. I to slowed down and have been trying to do the maff method and MAN THEY AIN'T GOING TO HAVE TO PICK U UP AND CART YOU TO THE FINISH LINE....YOU CAN DO IT!!!!!! I myself at that race would warm up real good and start my first mile off at a faster pace than my previous maff pace and when i hit mile one if i felt good and warm i would pick the pace up some more......now when i encountered hills i would slow down some and try not to get too labored breathing or high a heart rate in your case since your using the hr monitor. With me and my pacing it's not like if i pace myself too fast that i'm going to colapse......I figure out i'm going to fast and may not make it and i can slow down at any time and be ok and i imagine your the same way since you have been running this long. For instance last weekend i ran seven miles on dirt roads with good hills and every mile i would check my heart rate by my pulse and a stop watch....My maff is 121 and it was close to that for five miles then was 132 after some hills and my times were arouond 11.5 -12 mins a mile well at mile six dark was closing and i felt real good so i sped up and did the last mile at 9.5. If this old fart can do it so can you.....I will have me a hr monitor soon and i plan to continue this maff for a long time but i will deviate from it some and i can tell( i have been trying to do Maff training for about 10wks), that it has helped my endurance a lot....i very rarely try to run fast now but when i do i can run faster longer and never start breathing hard even after running five miles...it's awesome....anyway Good luck in the race and I think your a lot better runner than you are projetcing here..... Page

---

Hello!

Why is your MAFF 121?? Did you lower it for some reason.

When I do your MAFF figures, I get 134. Are you staying that much below for some reason?

Boston

IP: Logged

posted Oct-05-2005 03:41 PM            

Edited to say that I just ordered "Slow Burn" Thanks

[This message has been edited by StealthRunner (edited Oct-05-2005).]

IP: Logged

posted Oct-06-2005 08:02 AM               

Hi Stealthrunner...

I run by time...I pretty much always have in my 30 years of running. I feel if you are running a certain distance, you will tend to try to compare times and sonetimes "race" your workouts, which is not a good thing to do but every now and then. I like to think that if I go out for a run, it is easier to say I am going for 1,2 or 3 hours rather than 6 or 20 miles. That way I can just run anywhere and turn around at the halfway of which time I want to run...I can go as I please, staying relaxed.
During your long runs, be sure to add walking breaks. To prepare for my longer 100 mile races, I will regularly go out for 6-12 hours on a weekend day. Now certainly to run that much would probabaly cause injury, but what I'll do is go up to the White Mountains, hike up to the top in my zone (which sometimes means going slower than I feel like I want to), then jog the flats and downhills, walking all the hills.
One fo my favorite training runs that my wife and I like to do is what we call the Pemi Loop. It is a 33 mile run/hike up in the Whites that has lots and lots of climb. This takes us on average 10 hours to do...and we feel great when we finish because we've been burning fat all day. There are times during these workouts, when I will have a low point (probabaly from working too hard up a climb) and will eat something, but mostly I can do this whole thing just drinking a special energy drink I use.

You certainly CAN do that marathon in March. You have all winter to prepare...just go out as much as your body will allow and however much time you have. You can go out and start by walking briskly for 10 minutes, jog in your zone for 30 minutes and then walk for 10, repeat this over and over and you will finish feeling great without a lot of damage done to your legs and feet.

Ultras, I think, are actually easier than marathons, especially trail ultras. I wish I had discovered ultras earlier in my running days...and in Ca you have some fo the best and most beautiful! (Check out the Avalon 50) ;-)

One thing I like about Stu Mittleman's book is that he goes deeper into the Maffetone formula, stating that it is only a number to get you started with...to keep the running easy to help you repair and rebuild your aerobic engine. He goes into how you should feel in each of his three zones, rather than following numbers. It's good to start with the basic numbers, but then in time you will want to adjust your pace to suit how you feel on a day to day basis. Stu is a world class runner and he will tell you that a lot fo his training is at or below 10 mpm, but there will be other days when he will feel good and will train at a much faster pace, in what he calls the MEP zone, or most efficient zone.
So the pace you are running just might be too slow for you!

I will run slow and easy now until January 1st to rebuild and repair, then I start to step up my training in prep for Hardrock (which is 6 months later). I have a certain max HR test I use to find my MaxHR, then set my zones and run in those. The reason I do that is I think we are all different...we all have a different max and resting HR, so therefore our zones are different. My aerobic zone (based on my max and resting) is about 10 bpm higher than my Mittleman MEP (which is 5 beats higher than Maffetone). You need to build the aerobic engine over the course of 3-6 months and then adjust your pace to boost your aerobic engine to another level. Then you race all Summer, then return to the lower zone again to repair the body.

I am not a coach and not even a great athlete, but I have been at this game since the mid 70's and have learned a lot. Even back in the 70's and 80's when I was running my marathons under 2:50, I was training this way. This is before anyone had heard of Maffetone. I used to train following a book called "The Van Aaken method" by Ernst Van Aaken. In that book he said to train slowly every day, between 130-150 bpm, whether you are a recreational runner or elite athlete. The difference between now and then is I was in my late 20's then and I ran slowly for 100 miles a week on average. I also ran a short race every weekend for my speedwork. But all those years, I was building a base that would help me do what I'm doing today. Someday you will run a trail 100 in the mountains and feel like you are in heaven. When I am in the middle fo a 100, cruising along, burning fat and feeling strong, I am where I like to be...

Sorry for the long post, I write like I run ;-)

------------------
Steve

http://community.webshots.com/user/ultrastevep

IP: Logged

posted Oct-06-2005 08:17 AM               

My usual schedule is M-F one hour at lunchtime, Sat-at least one, possibly 2 hours and Sunday as much as I feel like. This time fo year could be 2-3 hours and 6 months from now it'll be 6-12 hours.

Van Aaken's motto and quote I like to use from time to time is "Run slowly, run daily, drink like a fish and don't eat like a pig" Sounds a lot like Maffetone, doesn't it?

------------------
Steve

http://community.webshots.com/user/ultrastevep

IP: Logged

posted Oct-06-2005 08:50 AM               

I do some...meaning that I do about 30-50 pushups and situps and some light work on a Total Gym 2-3 times a week...more in the off season than during the race season. During the Summer I just try to maintain my core strength, which I think helps me from getting tired late in a 100.

I think with Maffetone you have to read between the lines and do what you think is good for you. His main message is "We all train too fast too much, so run easily most of the time".
I don't buy his idea of wearing cheap Wal-Mart shoes, or no stretching or weight lifting. I like to stretch "after" I run, I like to do light, high reps, strength work to maintain good core strength and I like shoes that last and are comfortable. I generally wear the Asics 2000 series for my road running and Montrails for the trails.

Look at Stu Mittleman's body...this guy lifts weights!

------------------
Steve

http://community.webshots.com/user/ultrastevep

IP: Logged

posted Oct-06-2005 10:45 AM            

IP: Logged