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Is receiving water from someone who is not entered in a race, cheating?

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Author	Topic: Is receiving water from someone who is not entered in a race, cheating?
bcc594 Cool Runner	posted Dec-04-2007 03:32 PM No, hiring someone who runs the whole distance with you and sets your pace is fine. The key is that the person doing the pacing has to also run the whole thing from start to finish. You see elites all the time set out with their 'rabbits', who then either finish well back, or drop out, or would have set their own world record if the other guy hadn't been two or three seconds faster. The key, again, is that the person who was hired has done all the work as well. If you wanted to 'hire' someone to run along beside you the whole way, carry 4 litres of water on his back, and give you pep-talks, then knock-yourself out. That would be totally fine! IP: Logged
PacerChris Cool Runner	posted Dec-04-2007 04:38 PM quote: Originally posted by Runaround: You don't think having world class marathoners pacing him, feeding him and encouraging him was worth 30 seconds? I do. I would define that as a big difference when trying to break the three-hour barrier. I would say 30 seconds is a minimal difference...just because those 30 seconds happened to get him under 3 hours doesn't make it more or less significant to me, especially when you take into consideration the other headaches he had to deal with (trust me - as a pacer it's not easy to have a bunch of people chatting you up and running next to you and jostling you around). My buddy ran in the pack next to Lance for half the race and he said it was awesome because of the crowds cheering for Lance, but a lot of guys were darting in front of Lance, talking to him, etc. Joan Benoit Samuelson apparently was throwing some elbows late to clear a path for Lance as guys would jump in front of him to have their finisher photo include Lance, so THAT is probably where he got the biggest assist. The only "issue" I had with Lance's run last year was the tag teaming of pacers. If they had started and finished with him as registered runners no big deal, but to have people jumping in and out of the race to pace and support I think makes it a slightly bigger deal. I've paced groups and individuals in races but always as a registered runner - I wasn't taking any aid from the course that I shouldn't have since I was in the race. It's a stretch to say this, but imagine in a race designed to support 200 people if half of them had pacers helping their friends out and taking water on the course, or crowding the course... IP: Logged
Runaround Cool Runner	posted Dec-04-2007 05:05 PM I must say that I feel that you've contradicted yourself and I disagree with you on the three hour barrier, but to each their own. IP: Logged
Twocat Cool Runner	posted Dec-04-2007 09:35 PM JasonsDrivingForce if you cross the finish line in under a 3:10:59 chip time the BAA says you qualify which means you qualify. Neither the BAA nor your local RD cares if your family and friends hand you stuff at random places during they race. That is all that matters. The BAA and your RD are the "official" arbitrators regarding what mid-pack runners can and cannot do. What a bunch of people on a forum think is irrelevant. Most people enjoy having their family and friends out there for support. The family and friends like having the opportunity to help out. This is a potential win-win for you and your gang. Have a good time at the race and good luck with the BQ. IP: Logged
JasonsDrivingForce Cool Runner	posted Dec-04-2007 10:43 PM Yea I have decided to get the water bottles complete with my Hammer Gels(They only have Gu on the course which I can not stomach) at two separate spots on the course. I will have the person give them to me away from water stations so that they do not interfere with anyone else. I really do not see a problem with this now. I took water from several people during the race last year. Now that was to survive the 4 hour ordeal. This year should be a much faster time but I still won't be in the running for any prizes. Well except for the BQ! Thanks for the well wishes. ------------------ My Profile IP: Logged
PacerChris Cool Runner	posted Dec-05-2007 10:20 AM quote: Originally posted by Runaround: I must say that I feel that you've contradicted yourself and I disagree with you on the three hour barrier, but to each their own. I can see that it sounds like I contradicted myself because I can see both sides of the argument. I think it's OK he had people running with him, handing him water, giving him tips, etc - any benefit he got from that I think was outweighed by the other hassles he had to deal with that other runners did not. A 30 second benefit in a marathon to me is insignificant and since you can't tell how much he benefitted from having pacers, it's a moot point anyway. In general though, I don't agree with the idea of pacers who jump in the race midway through for someone running a competitive time (define that as you wish - certainly not someone who may win the race or win an age group award). I've been on pace teams where we have someone jump in midway through and the pacer may hand off to the fresh person and let them take over, but that's different because we're servicing a number of people, not just one or two. Plus we're doing it for a couple of reasons: 1) Make sure we have someone that can lead the group to the right time if the conditions are tough, and 2) For the health & protection of the pacer (fall is a busy time of year and we may pace 2-3 weekends in a row - not healthy!) IP: Logged
RunForFun Cool Runner	posted Dec-05-2007 10:44 AM JasonsDrivingForce Have a great race - Please post an let us know how it went Have the patience to run the race you planned out, if BQ is your primary goal - Do not get gready when you feel good the 1st 5-10 miles and run too fast - Greedy people usually blow up. Ask PacerChris - How many times does someone early on leave the pace group - Feeling good and then you pass them later on - they are road kill. On to Boston! IP: Logged
JasonsDrivingForce Cool Runner	posted Dec-05-2007 12:40 PM quote: Originally posted by RunForFun: JasonsDrivingForce Have a great race - Please post an let us know how it went Have the patience to run the race you planned out, if BQ is your primary goal - Do not get gready when you feel good the 1st 5-10 miles and run too fast - Greedy people usually blow up. Ask PacerChris - How many times does someone early on leave the pace group - Feeling good and then you pass them later on - they are road kill. On to Boston! The problem is that there is not a 3:10 pace group. There is a 3:15 pace group but that won�t help me much now would it? I guess the only thing that would help me right now is to be about 4 years older. So would it be cheating if I just listed myself as 35 instead of 31? Just kidding, I thought this heated debate needed to be lightened up a bit. Thanks for the encouragement! Man that 3:10 time is no joke. I have done a couple of practice runs at marathon pace and it is not easy to maintain that. Now my runs are really hilly but the Charlotte Marathon is pretty hilly as well. ------------------ My Profile IP: Logged
JasonsDrivingForce Cool Runner	posted Dec-05-2007 01:58 PM I just got word from the race that they do not have a problem with any runners receiving water from spectators. ------------------ My Profile IP: Logged
RunForFun Cool Runner	posted Dec-05-2007 06:19 PM I didn't mean there was a 3:10 pace group - Just to not get greedy - do not bank time - at least more than a couple of seconds per mile. I just used Chris as an example - Because I am sure he has seen many Greedy 3:10 hopefuls blow up. Good luck - IP: Logged
PacerChris Cool Runner	posted Dec-05-2007 10:30 PM I've seen my share, yes! It takes a lot of confidence and patience to hold back early and KNOW you can close hard and get your time. IP: Logged
JasonsDrivingForce Cool Runner	posted Dec-08-2007 10:28 PM Here is my race report from the Charlotte Thunder Road Marathon. I didn't BQ but I did get 8 water bottles from my wife and father along the course. It was never a problem that I was accepting the water. 3:20:40 for a 38 minute PR. http://www.coolrunning.com/forums/Forum8/HTML/010874.shtml ------------------ My Profile IP: Logged
Jim Sullivan Cool Runner	posted Dec-10-2007 09:02 AM Great job, JDF. By the way, just as a follow-up, it's been a week since I emailed the BAA, and they haven't gotten back to me. This would seem to leave two possibilities; either they don't like me, or maybe they just don't care about this issue. IP: Logged
PacerChris Cool Runner	posted Dec-10-2007 11:57 AM Jim - why do those two options have to be mutually exclusive? Perhaps they don't like you NOR do they care about this. IP: Logged
Jim Sullivan Cool Runner	posted Dec-10-2007 12:00 PM quote: Originally posted by PacerChris: Jim - why do those two options have to be mutually exclusive? Perhaps they don't like you NOR do they care about this. I had a feeling I might not have thought this one all the way through. IP: Logged
JasonsDrivingForce Cool Runner	posted Dec-10-2007 12:43 PM quote: Originally posted by PacerChris: Jim - why do those two options have to be mutually exclusive? Perhaps they don't like you NOR do they care about this. Jim, thanks for checking on that for me. No one cared about the water since I wasn't in the running for any awards. PacerChris, I really could have used you out there. I know I would have at least broken 3:15 if the pacer had been reasonable. Check out his split times below. That is going out too fast right? What would you have shot for if you were pacing for 3:15? What about 3:10? Maxwell Anthony 10K \| Half \| Half Pace \| 16.2m \| 20m \| Chip \| Gun 44:10 1:33:33 7:09 1:56:35 2:25:36 3:14:47 3:14:53 Over all pace 7:27 ------------------ My Profile [This message has been edited by JasonsDrivingForce (edited Dec-10-2007).] IP: Logged
Lovrunnin Cool Runner	posted Dec-10-2007 02:57 PM In regards to doubtful time of first female runner, last year at Kiawah Island marathon (run same weekend as Thunderroad), I finished in 3:19: 35 and won my age group (50-54). I was feeling pretty good until I noticed that a 60-year-old woman finished a minute behind me. Wow, I started to e-mail Runners World and Track and Field Federation cause I thought this must be some kind of record. First I googled the woman and the only thing that came up was the results from Kiawah with her finish. Then I checked the results from Boston for 2006 and the winner of the 60-64 age group, female, had run a 3:47 or about 30 minutes slower. Looking pretty suspicious, so I e-mailed the Kiawah RD and got a response that the women had been disqualified and had not received an award. Later, I figured out that she had probably intended to run the marathon and wore a marathon chip but decided to quit after a half (Kiawah is a two-loop course). She crossed the finish line and I guess she didn't bother to tell anyone until after the results were tallied. IP: Logged
JasonsDrivingForce Cool Runner	posted Dec-10-2007 03:57 PM quote: Originally posted by Lovrunnin: In regards to doubtful time of first female runner, last year at Kiawah Island marathon (run same weekend as Thunderroad), Well, I was totally wrong in this case. The first woman overall did indeed run the whole race and she is one fantastic runner. My apologies to her and I wish her all the best. Apparently, she qualified for the Olympics with that run! Simply Unbelievable, but true. ------------------ My Profile IP: Logged
PacerChris Cool Runner	posted Dec-10-2007 07:33 PM Not knowing anything about the course or the pacer's strategy, I can't say for sure if 7:09 pace for the first half is ridiculous or not when 7:27 is 3:15 pace...but it sure does sound pretty aggressive. When I pace 3:10, my goal is to have no miles faster than 7:00 (ideally 7:05, but an odd downhill or a fast mile here or there happens)...but certainly I don't string more than a mile or two together at that fast a clip or you risk shredding the whole group. The other issue is not just the people you're pacing but people who just want to keep an eye on you to gauge their progress...if someone sees the 3:15 guy go throuh half in 1:33, he or she might be tempted to pick up the pace if their goal is 3:10. Again - I don't want to blast the pacer because I know nothing about the curse, but it seems a little fast to me. IP: Logged
JasonsDrivingForce Cool Runner	posted Dec-11-2007 06:34 AM quote: Again - I don't want to blast the pacer because I know nothing about the curse, but it seems a little fast to me.[/B] Fair enough. I never caught the pacer during the entire race and I had several miles deep in the 6's, and a whole string of miles under 7:10. There were several other people who said the 3:00 pacer ran them into the ground also. How hard is being a pacer? When you pace 3:10 are you totally in control the whole race? The 3:15 guy seemed to indicate at the start that without his gels he wasn't even going to finish. I didn't get the idea that he was totally in control during the race. ------------------ My Profile IP: Logged
PacerChris Cool Runner	posted Dec-11-2007 08:55 AM For me, 3:10 is a comfortable pace but it does get hard later in the race to make it look easy if the conditions are bad (a la Twin Cities this year!) If the person is concerned about finishing, they shouldn't be pacing that time. The one time I really blew it and missed my time was when I was asked to pace the 3 hour group at San Francisco - a challenging course. At the time my PR was only 2:53 but I knew I was in better shape than that. We had a back up plan that didn't work because the pacer behind me needed some help from the guy who was checking on us so I was on my own. I was on pace through about 23.5, running with no one left in my group and I cramped up because I'd missed so many water stations (long story). BUT - I didn't miss my time because I went out on a suicidal pace, I just had a rough day and couldn't quite close it. I would say a good pace time is 20-30 minutes slower than your PR, but more important is how steady can you hold a pace, and how diligent are you about checking your pace at each mile marker. It's not easy because sometimes you get into your normal rhythm which might be 30 seconds faster per mile so you have to 1) Know the pace and what it feels like, and 2) Check yourself at each mile marker to know what that last mile was and how you're doing on overall time. IP: Logged
sue Moderator of Mainstream Racing	posted Dec-11-2007 10:40 AM quote: Originally posted by JasonsDrivingForce: I just got word from the race that they do not have a problem with any runners receiving water from spectators. maybe not. However, what if a guy that ran near you in that race, filed a complaint? I'd say the RD may have a problem if the race is under USATF rules. Just sayin' it could happen. I've had 2 instances, where another runner said something to me. The first time, it was a rinky-dink half that I won a close race and 2nd place woman scolded me for taking a gu from DH. I was so inexperienced, I didn't even know and told her. She said "now, you know". The second time, I accepted a water bottle from someone that I ran my long runs with, he had a few cases and was passing them out, I thought he was a volunteer. But a woman running on my heels told me to "throw it down". I've seen runners have friends ride their bikes next to them and races have no problems, but I've also had a friend of my husband happen to see me running and rode next to me for a few seconds and a race official yelled to him "get off the course or she's DQ'd". Yet at the very same race a few years later, the race had a lady ride next to me on a bike from about 6 miles on that was doing the same thing basically, saying "you look good, keep going". I'd have been upset had I been DQd for either infraction, but the thing is: I could have if the person complained. IP: Logged
laker Cool Runner	posted Dec-11-2007 05:13 PM JDF, This is a bit off topic, but why did you drink so much? It was pretty cool for most of the race, so dehydration shouldn't have been an issue. I drank probably only the equivalent of 2-3 full cups of water in the whole race and alot of that was to wash down the 2 gels I ate. I would think all that water would slow you down. IP: Logged
TommyL Cool Runner	posted Dec-11-2007 05:14 PM Didn't Beardsley and Salazar share a water bottle? IP: Logged
mbfleth Cool Runner	posted Dec-11-2007 05:23 PM It may be nice if your friend could have a couple of drinks for the people running near you. I have no problem with your plan, but it could be really cool to share with others. After all you are all in it together. IP: Logged

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