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Topic: Is receiving water from someone who is not entered in a race, cheating? |
jpgarland
Cool Runner |
 posted Dec-02-2007 02:53 PM
   
Lioness, the rule is designed to avoid one runner having an unfair advantage over another against whom she's competing. Now, I'm not a 3:19 marathoner, but although I don't have a problem with someone who doesn't have a problem with getting such assistance, I do have a problem with someone who believes that someone who believes that the rules of competition should be followed in a competition needs a "reality check."
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spkoest
Cool Runner |
posted Dec-02-2007 03:08 PM
I just ran the Memphis marathon this weekend and they had a card table at each water station where you could have someone place drinks on for a runner to grab but you could not hand it to the runner. First time I ever saw this.
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aurang
Cool Runner |
posted Dec-02-2007 03:42 PM
quote:
Originally posted by jpgarland:
Lioness, the rule is designed to avoid one runner having an unfair advantage over another against whom she's competing. Now, I'm not a 3:19 marathoner, but although I don't have a problem with someone who doesn't have a problem with getting such assistance, I do have a problem with someone who believes that someone who believes that the rules of competition should be followed in a competition needs a "reality check."
Yeah, no kidding.What about a fellow 3:19 marathoner cutting the course? A 4:19 marathoner? As long as you don't win, anything's allowed, right?
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Jim Sullivan
Cool Runner |
posted Dec-03-2007 09:14 AM
quote:
Originally posted by jpgarland:
...Jim Sullivan, if one of your guys beat me narrowly after getting his special drink at 30K, I would complain to the RD...
That would be one option. The other is to stop whining and train harder.
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laker
Cool Runner |
posted Dec-03-2007 10:48 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Jim Sullivan:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by jpgarland:
[b]...Jim Sullivan, if one of your guys beat me narrowly after getting his special drink at 30K, I would complain to the RD...
That would be one option. The other is to stop whining and train harder.[/B][/QUOTE] I'll go with Joe on this one, rules should be followed. Definitely a misdemeanor though.
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mahanska00
Cool Runner |
posted Dec-03-2007 04:21 PM
quote:
Originally posted by aurang:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by jpgarland:
[b]Lioness, the rule is designed to avoid one runner having an unfair advantage over another against whom she's competing. Now, I'm not a 3:19 marathoner, but although I don't have a problem with someone who doesn't have a problem with getting such assistance, I do have a problem with someone who believes that someone who believes that the rules of competition should be followed in a competition needs a "reality check."
Yeah, no kidding.What about a fellow 3:19 marathoner cutting the course? A 4:19 marathoner? As long as you don't win, anything's allowed, right?[/B][/QUOTE] The reality check is thinking that you are competing against anyone else but yourself, unless you are actually a top runner in either your age group or overall. The only one you are competing against is yourself (for 99% of the runners). Comparing taking an orange slice from a spectator to taking a shortcut on the course is ridiculous. Also, if I have protein in my sports drink that's in my fuel belt, do I have an advantage over the poor soul who just is using Gatorade from his/her own fuel belt. Where do we draw the line? Lance Armstrong said he took 14 gels in his first NYC marathon. Should he be disqualified? He also had pacers. Just worry about yourself, please
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bhearn
Cool Runner |
posted Dec-03-2007 06:04 PM
Well here's a slightly different question for you all, back to the issue of pacing. (I didn't see the earlier thread on that.)I won a marathon a few weeks ago, by about 10 seconds over the next runner, and I was paced over the last couple of miles by someone not in the race. Should that disqualify me? Well... several things. First, this was a very small (~30 people), informal race. There certainly were no official rules barring pacers, or anything else, for that matter. No prize money, no medal. Second, I didn't ask for this guy's help. He just showed up next to me around mile 24 and asked if I wanted him to pace me in. (I think he was one of the relayers that had already finished.) I told him thanks, but I was fine with my Garmin and chasing the woman ahead of me. But he ran alongside me anyway. Then he offered to break the wind for me, and I was firm about that not being fair, so he didn't. Maybe if I'd been thinking clearly I would have told him to please not pace me, because that might not be fair either, but my mind was on running down the leader. And who is thinking clearly at mile 24, anyway??? Also I guess I didn't want to be rude to someone trying to help. The whole flavor of this race was very fun, social, and informal. Still, I was *very* close to giving up the chase; I had to run close to my 5K pace in the last mile to win. Was I helped psychologically by the pacer? I don't know. It bugs me a bit. For the woman I passed, it would have been her first overall win, though she's been 1F several times. (She was 2F at Seattle last week!) More gory details here (towards the bottom). Oh and like most of you here, I had never given any serious thought to these issues, being a lowly 3:10ish guy. Bob
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aurang
Cool Runner |
posted Dec-03-2007 09:15 PM
quote:
Originally posted by mahanska00:
The reality check is thinking that you are competing against anyone else but yourself, unless you are actually a top runner in either your age group or overall. The only one you are competing against is yourself (for 99% of the runners).
No, you're competing against the entire field. If you're just competing against yourself, you wouldn't show up.
quote:
Just worry about yourself, please
If that's true, why does it matter if someone else cuts the course?
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mahanska00
Cool Runner |
posted Dec-03-2007 09:51 PM
quote:
Originally posted by aurang:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by mahanska00:
[b] The reality check is thinking that you are competing against anyone else but yourself, unless you are actually a top runner in either your age group or overall. The only one you are competing against is yourself (for 99% of the runners).
No, you're competing against the entire field. If you're just competing against yourself, you wouldn't show up.
quote:
Just worry about yourself, please
If that's true, why does it matter if someone else cuts the course?[/B][/QUOTE] Because, as I said before, getting an extra drink is NOT cheating to me, but cutting the course is cheating. Getting a drink on the course is NOT a misdomeaner. Do you really think that the person next to you getting a drink is the reason that s/he beats you? Take two drinks at the water station and suck it up.
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aurang
Cool Runner |
posted Dec-03-2007 10:08 PM
quote:
Originally posted by mahanska00:
Because, as I said before, getting an extra drink is NOT cheating to me, but cutting the course is cheating.
Cutting the course might not be cheating to the guy who does it. What's the big deal, anyway? We're all just competing against ourselves anyway.
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RunForFun
Cool Runner |
posted Dec-03-2007 10:11 PM
Reality - getting aide not provided by the race is against the rules.But to compare getting a water bottle from someone to cutting the course ... BTW - wearing headphone is also against the rules - even if a marathon says they will not enforce it - it is still against the rules - must be the same as cutting the course ...
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jpgarland
Cool Runner |
posted Dec-03-2007 10:15 PM
quote:
Originally posted by jpgarland:
...Jim Sullivan, if one of your guys beat me narrowly after getting his special drink at 30K, I would complain to the RD...
quote:
Jim Sullivan's response:That would be one option. The other is to stop whining and train harder.
While I chiefly am competing with myself, I am also competing with those around me. Perhaps I'm too sensitive because I do, in fact, have an age-group award in the NY Marathon, for which I trained pretty hard. But it's insulting to think that someone who's not in the top 1% is entitled to anything less than I am. I'm surprised that a club would be so lackadaisical about the rules. Mine wouldn't be. The original poster asked whether it was cheating. It is. He can choose to cheat or not. And I am sympathetic to Bob Hearn. And that Armstrong had pacers is a black mark on the NYRR. [This message has been edited by jpgarland (edited Dec-03-2007).]
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Twocat
Cool Runner |
posted Dec-03-2007 10:44 PM
I want to second mahanska00 posts. If you are competing for a prize (AG or overall) then I can fully understand why you want everybody to follow all of the official rules. I would too. (See jpg's point that he wins AG awards putting him in that group.) But as mahanska00 pointed out that applies to a tiny fraction of runners. For the rest of the pack the goal is just to have some fun running a few miles. So long as you do not interfere with anybody else then I would say do what you like. Have people pace you, hug you, hand you water or a teddy bear if you like.
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spkoest
Cool Runner |
posted Dec-04-2007 05:27 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Twocat:
I want to second mahanska00 posts. If you are competing for a prize (AG or overall) then I can fully understand why you want everybody to follow all of the official rules. I would too. (See jpg's point that he wins AG awards putting him in that group.) But as mahanska00 pointed out that applies to a tiny fraction of runners. For the rest of the pack the goal is just to have some fun running a few miles. So long as you do not interfere with anybody else then I would say do what you like. Have people pace you, hug you, hand you water or
Disqualify you. Really does the runner that is entering the race with the attitude of only having fun really care if the RD says he/she is DQd? Probably not or they shouldnt.
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bcc594
Cool Runner |
posted Dec-04-2007 06:29 AM
quote:
Originally posted by spkoest:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Twocat:
[b]I want to second mahanska00 posts. If you are competing for a prize (AG or overall) then I can fully understand why you want everybody to follow all of the official rules. I would too. (See jpg's point that he wins AG awards putting him in that group.) But as mahanska00 pointed out that applies to a tiny fraction of runners. For the rest of the pack the goal is just to have some fun running a few miles. So long as you do not interfere with anybody else then I would say do what you like. Have people pace you, hug you, hand you water or
Disqualify you. Really does the runner that is entering the race with the attitude of only having fun really care if the RD says he/she is DQd? Probably not or they shouldnt.[/B][/QUOTE] Then why enter the race? If you don't care whether you're DQed or not, and you don't care whether you'll follow the rules or not, then why not just map out a 26.2 mile course from your house and run that? You can set up your own aid stations, and listen to whatever music you want - it's your own private race. (Because, after all, you're really only racing yourself!) This drives me batty! Yes, you're racing against yourself, that's the beauty of running. But, you're also racing everyone there, under the SAME conditions. That's the whole point. Maybe soon we can set up several different races, all at the same time. 1) The "Old-School-Elitist-I-Only-Train-With-Water-Jerks" Race
2) The "Rules-Aren't-For-Me-I'm-In-This-For-Myself-Self-Esteem" Race. That way, everyone could go home happy. Of course, the second race would just be a big group run through town - but that's for another day.
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hopper3011
Cool Runner |
posted Dec-04-2007 06:48 AM
quote:
Originally posted by lioness1:
I've heard of this rule, and I'm curious whether its rationale is that the extra refreshments in themselves are the concern or the possibility that these refreshments could have some banned substance in them?I admit to having accepted beer at an unofficial beer stop at the Philly Marathon. But I don't know that beer could be classified as performance enhancing. 
I think it is more to do with the level playing field, don't forget that not very long ago taking any liquids or food was considered outside assistance, and marathons didn't have waterstops - official or otherwise.
This question was phrased interestingly, since technically receiving assistance from another runner (someone who IS entered in the race) should, technically, count as outside assistance as well, but you will often see teams handing water bottles around, and also bottles get passed between runners even if they aren't team members. I've never seen or heard of any disqualifications for that?
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JasonsDrivingForce
Cool Runner |
posted Dec-04-2007 08:54 AM
Remember that I am trying to BQ for this marathon. I am not going to take any age group awards home but I am trying to “Officially” qualify for the Boston Marathon. I wouldn’t want to BQ if I had broken the rules.That being said there is nothing that explicitly forbids the outside aid in the Charlotte Marathon rules that I could find. Is every marathon under USATF rules? I think in the end I will have someone ask the water stops if they mind if he puts a water bottle on the water table right before I get there. He won’t be interfering with anyone because the field really spreads out by then at that pace. If they allow the elites to do it in the Boston Marathon and it is not explicitly forbid in that marathon’s rules then I really don’t see anything wrong with it.
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hopper3011
Cool Runner |
posted Dec-04-2007 09:38 AM
quote:
Originally posted by JasonsDrivingForce:
Remember that I am trying to BQ for this marathon. I am not going to take any age group awards home but I am trying to “Officially” qualify for the Boston Marathon. I wouldn’t want to BQ if I had broken the rules.That being said there is nothing that explicitly forbids the outside aid in the Charlotte Marathon rules that I could find. Is every marathon under USATF rules? I think in the end I will have someone ask the water stops if they mind if he puts a water bottle on the water table right before I get there. He won’t be interfering with anyone because the field really spreads out by then at that pace. If they allow the elites to do it in the Boston Marathon and it is not explicitly forbid in that marathon’s rules then I really don’t see anything wrong with it.
Just a practical point, and setting aside any questions of cheating or not cheating, if I were the RD I think I would prefer you kept the "outside assistance" away from the official aid tables simply for traffic flow reasons. Aid tables get congested, having your helper give you the bottle(s) away from the tables is far less likely to cause an accident. Impeding another runner would be a worse "sin" in my book than taking outside aid.
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Jim Sullivan
Cool Runner |
posted Dec-04-2007 09:40 AM
quote:
Originally posted by JasonsDrivingForce:
...If they allow the elites to do it in the Boston Marathon and it is not explicitly forbid in that marathon’s rules then I really don’t see anything wrong with it.
I emailed the BAA for a clarification. They haven't gotten back to me, as this may not be one of their highest priorities.
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DAVIDR262
Cool Runner |
posted Dec-04-2007 10:00 AM
quote:
Originally posted by hopper3011:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by JasonsDrivingForce:
[b]That being said there is nothing that explicitly forbids the outside aid in the Charlotte Marathon rules that I could find. Is every marathon under USATF rules?
I may be wrong, but I believe any Marathon that can be used for Boston must be unde USATF rules.
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Lovrunnin
Cool Runner |
posted Dec-04-2007 10:13 AM
In a marathon I ran last year, I was running the same pace as a friend of mine. He had someone on a bike handing him a water/gatoraid bottle every two miles. Sure enough, he would pull ahead of me by a few seconds at every water stop while a slowed down to slurp my beverage and moved on. Eventually he beat me by about a minute. I accused him (good naturedly) of having an advantage with the hand offs, but I still think it was true. I don't think it was cheating per se as he wasn't competing for money or even an age group award. But it definitely gave him an advantage.
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Runaround
Cool Runner |
posted Dec-04-2007 11:40 AM
Do you think it was fair that Lance had so much help in his first NYC marathon? He just barely finished under 3 with a lot of help from elite runners who were not entered in the race, at least I couldn't find their numbers. I know this may be a poor example with him being a celebrity and running for his charity but I don't think he would have broken three that year without all the outside influence/help (water, GU, pacing). In my eyes, that was a HUGE advantage and the fact that he broke three hours that day didn't carry as much weight in my eyes given such help. Being in the spotlight like he was that day almost condones the behavior for some people; I can understand that even though I don't agree with it.
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PacerChris
Cool Runner |
posted Dec-04-2007 01:30 PM
I don't think Lance's LIttle Helpers were THAT big a factor last year. Just my opinion, but he also had to deal with a lot of stuff that the average runners did not (a camera on him the entire way, a bunch of people wanting to run right next to him, etc.) I'm not saying having someone hand him water didn't help, but I don't think it made that big a difference.To compare getting water or an orange slice with cutting the course is ridiculous.
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Runaround
Cool Runner |
posted Dec-04-2007 01:42 PM
quote:
Originally posted by PacerChris:
[B]I don't think Lance's LIttle Helpers were THAT big a factor last year. Just my opinion, but he also had to deal with a lot of stuff that the average runners did not (a camera on him the entire way, a bunch of people wanting to run right next to him, etc.) I'm not saying having someone hand him water didn't help, but I don't think it made that big a difference.
B]
You don't think having world class marathoners pacing him, feeding him and encouraging him was worth 30 seconds? I do. I would define that as a big difference when trying to break the three-hour barrier.
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JasonsDrivingForce
Cool Runner |
posted Dec-04-2007 01:45 PM
PacerChris,I don’t suppose you would like to run the Charlotte marathon this weekend would you? We sure could use a good 3:10 pace guy! Also would “hiring” a registered runner to pace you be considered cheating? If Lance’s pacers had been registered runners who started at the starting line would anyone still have a problem with that?
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