posted Oct-01-2007 08:26 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by zoomharp:
A HUGE thanks to runinlaw for starting and maintaining this great thread. It has been inspiring and educational for me to read everyone's training logs. Runinlaw's comments of encouragement have helped a lot too. I wish everyone the best, especially Runinlaw -- I'll report again after my Portland trip. Cheers -zh

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Thanks zoomharp! This thread is very valuable to me too - lots learned each season. I hope your head cold goes away and I wish you the best in portland!!

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posted Oct-01-2007 08:42 AM            

mrinertia--that course is really tough. I did the 2nd 10k leg of the relay and that was tough. I think you did really well for your first marathon. Maybe for the next one pick an easier course and you'll be amazed at what a difference it can make to not have gigantic hills from mile 15-20! I ran with a friend for the last 2.5 or so and even that was brutal. A big long down hill and then one last fairly steep uphill before they finally have mercy on you and you cruise down to the finish. Nice job!!!!!

Speaking of the relay--it was so much fun!! Right before my partner came into the shoot I met rootsrunner . We chatted for a bit and then I was up and took off. He accompanied for the first mile or two as I flew through the University of Akron campus. I was the only woman at that point of the race so I got some pretty loud cheers. I felt like a superstar. It was so much fun. The one downside to that was that I went out in sub-6 pace and went careening down a huge downhill onto a wooded towpath where there was suddenly no one around. At this point it was just me, my watch, and some lactic acid Oopsy. Let's just say I didn't maintain that sub-6:00 pace for the whole 10k! I ran a REALLY stupid race, but man was it fun!! Thanks for the support, roots!!!

Otherwise, I had a pretty good week. My mileage remains relatively high and it's going even higher this week. Just a 2 week taper for me this cycle.

Mo: Easy 5.5

Tu: AM 5.25 easy; PM 13.75 including 5 mile w/u 6 x 1 (6:48, 6:46, 6:44, 6:43, 6:40, 6:40--a little slow but it was 90 degrees and humid), 2+ mi c/d including 6 x 100 strides.

We: 10 easy (8:29) in the pouring rain.

Tu: 10 easy (8:31)

Fr: 5.5 easy with no watch

Sa: AM 3 mi w/u including 4 strides. 10k race (Akron marathon relay leg) in 39:05, 5+ mile c/d including 2.5 miles ~7:00 pacing a friend to the finish. PM: 4 very easy miles.

Total: 78.25

Good weeks everyone!!

Duh! I almost forgot! Good luck to all out Oct. 7th Marathoners !!!

Duh Part 2: Congrats joplus on a big 5k pr!!!!

[This message has been edited by thereshegoes (edited Oct-01-2007).]

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posted Oct-01-2007 08:44 AM               

I begin the final week of my taper now, and I am feeling pretty good. I tweaked my groin a little over the weekend hauling a 100+ pound fire pit into the backyard for a little campout with the kids, but I think it is minor. I am hoping that this is my breakthrough performance in Chicago, and things are looking good in that regard. I really want to BQ (3:20), and I have seen my 5K PR drop from 19:25 to 17:37 just a couple of weeks ago. I am following Pfitz's 55 and under taper plan although I trained with the 70mpw plan. My max HR = 201.

Mon- Cross train

Tues- 7 miles (8:42 pace, 132 avg HR)

Wed- 8 miles incl. 3x 1mile @ 5K pace

Thurs- Cross-train

Fri- 5 miles (8:36 pace, 131 avg HR)

Sat- Rest

Sun- 13 miles (8:14 pace, 141 avg HR)

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posted Oct-01-2007 09:04 AM            

M - Rest
T - 5.92 EZ
W - 20 (see below)
Th - Rest (doctor's visit)
F - 4.11 (should have stayed in bed but just couldn't)
Sa - Sick
Su - 5.45 feeling a little better

Total - 35.48

The 20 on Wednesday was one of my worst runs of the year. This was to make up for missing my last long run on the previous Sunday. I felt great at the start but the weather and a coming on strong cold totally derailed this workout. Had a great plan for this workout as I was running it on a local bike path that is flat (my marathon is flat but I mostly train on hills). I ran comfortable 8:30s till about 9 miles, dropped from 8:30 to 8:05 from 10 to 14, then the wheels started falling off. My HR started skyrocketing (it was kind of high the whole time but I hadn't noticed it that much) and the temps went from 70 at the start of my run to the high 80s, low 90s. This day ended up being the second hottest 9/26 on record in this area (great timing for a long run). I ended up run/walking the last 3 miles and ended up well over 3 hours total time.

Had felt a cold coming on a little but, but woke up on Thursday morning with a nasty sore throat and upper respiratory cold. The Dr. gave me some anti-biotics which I hate taking but they seemed to have worked as I am now starting to feel better. The rest of the week was a complete washout from being sick.

Also, had my first marathon dream last night so I must be in full crazy mode right now. I was running a marathon with some old friends from HS that I haven't seen in forever. They kept wanting to stop and talk and I was getting all worked up because when we were running my pace was right on. Then I kept running by a swimming pool and losing my shoes. It was very bizarre...

Going to focus on hitting all my workouts in this two week taper mode and put last week behind me. Nothing I can do now but move forward and hope for the best.

I have made my #1 goal to finish the marathon and enjoy it. I have also adjusted my #2 time goal down to sub 3:30 or so. If I feel good on race day, I might still go for the 3:15 but I don't think my two 20 mile runs went that well and that doesn't bode well for race day. I was getting all worked up about it, but I'm at peace with it now. 3 years ago I never even thought I could run a marathon, so just finishing will be a big accomplishment. I don't want to ruin that by feeling bad about missing an aribtrary time goal...

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posted Oct-01-2007 10:28 AM            

My final hard week!

m: 11.5 w/6 atHM pace
tu: off
w: 6
th: 10 w/10 x 1/2 miles at 5k pace (avg 2:53)
f: off
sa: 5
su: 22 w/4 @MP

Total 54.5

For my speedwork this week I did the Yasso 800 workout. I felt fine and never really felt like I was pushing until the last rep where I came in 10 seconds faster than the others (the sun had gone down and I couldn't see my watch in the dark, I didn't know my time until I got in the car. I THOUGHT the last 800 felt tough!) Any way with the avg pace being 2:53 I'm pretty much GUARANTEED a 2:53 first marathon! So, I've got that going for me. Yesterday's long run felt fine. Taper Time.

Good luck to all those running next sunday (as well as Johnny J)

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posted Oct-01-2007 11:28 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Johnny J:
I am really at a loss as to what pace to pick for my marathon. My marathon history goes like this: 3:24, 3:14, 3:41 (85 degrees Boston '04), 3:21, 2:56, 2:57, 2:47.

---

[b]Wow. That is some Huge improvement curve.

quote:

---

Do I say that another year of moderate training has been additive to my base and fitness, my LT is better as evidenced by my 10k, and despite not having quite the quantity, I may potentially be able to go for a PR on the same course as last year? Or, do I admit what I know is probably true and know that although I'm in great 10k or half marathon shape currently, I have no business going for a marathon PR because I don't have the quality long runs or big miles, and pick a decent pace and go conservative, trying to avoid the proverbial "blow up" which I have experienced several times in the past, although not for a few years now.

I still need to think about it and it will probably be a race day decision. I'm either going to go for a PR, with a 50-75% chance of blowing up and getting a very ugly 3:10-3:20, but with an outside chance of running under 2:45, or I'll try to pace well and hit high 2:50's to just under 3.

I know this may be totally stupid, but I can't get excited about a well run, but non risky 2:59. I'm leaning towards going for it, hitting the half in 1:23-25, and seeing what happens. Last year my splits were 1:27, 1:20, so I figure if I hit 1:23-25 range I've got a chance to PR if I can hold on in the second half.

---

It sounds like you know what you WANT to do. I would just see how you are feeling on race day. I think your previously base is definitely still behind you. Just think of yourself as a little more rested this time If I were you, I would make it a race day decision - take the first couple of miles (pure adrenaline) a little easier than you would like and then evaluate where you are at. If it is really easy and you can comfortably move into PR pace, why not go for it. Just prepare yourself mentally in case you do blow up so you aren't super disappointed. GOOD LUCK!!

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posted Oct-01-2007 11:48 AM            

I have another 50 mile week this week. I hope Saturady is cooler that the 22nd!

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posted Oct-01-2007 11:56 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Penikese:
Congrats to mrinertia and Dan! (I think that course was long by 12 seconds).

---

Actually that's true... certified courses are supposed to be measured .1% long, just to make extra sure they are not short. Seems pretty silly to me. Some are still going to be a tiny bit shorter or longer than others, so why not make the reference point the stated distance, rather than longer?

Anyway, for a 3-hr marathon, that works out to... ah... 10.8 seconds. Which means you actually missed it by about a second. Hmm, I guess that just adds to the sting, doesn't it? Sorry!

I'm there too... I ran a 40:00.00 10K last year. That's not sub-40, by the absolute narrowest of margins.

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posted Oct-01-2007 12:58 PM            

Goal is BQ (3:15:59) at Marine Corps on 10/28.

Previous best is 3:24:16 in May 07. I used the last 12 weeks of Benji Durden's schedule and ran a 1:09:49 10 mile race 4 weeks before that marathon. Obligatory excuse: last 4 miles of the marathon was into 20 mpw sustained winds with 25-30mpw gusts. Seriously.

This time I've been using the last 14 weeks of the Pfitz 18/70mpw program, but scaled down a bit (mileage is about 10% less and I've cut the tempo/intervals to ~75% of the specified distance on the theory I'm slower than Pfitz expects and can't be running 7 mile tempos at 15K pace on a Wednesday.) I'd been maintaining my modified schedule until the last couple of weeks.

I started Pfitz having averaged 53 mpw since the beginning of the year including marathon recovery and then after starting Pfitz I've had weeks of 62, 64, 55, 64, 63, 60, 65, 65, 55 (half marathon -- 1:33:28), followed by the last two weeks:

Week of 17 Sept
- 63 miles, should have taken it easier but ran the schedule and had to quit my 20-miler at 13 miles mostly because I was feeling fried but also because I was worried about pain on the top of my foot.

Week of 24 Sept

Mo - 10.5 easy (9:30 min/mi) - unplanned run to work b/c of car trouble. Left calf hurt. Modified gait from the foot pain put a strain on my calf.

Tu - 9.7 - Intervals on a 10 laps per mile track. 45 min wup, 6 x 0.4 w/0.2 jog - 2:43, 2:40, 2:39, 2:40, 2:41, 2:39, 15 min cdn. Did the VO2max workout despite the foot/calf. Intervals were about 6:40 pace. I didn't have any trouble getting through them but felt like I couldn't have gone any faster if I had fallen out of an airplane. Yasso says 3:20 for the marathon?

We - Rest - Calf/foot ouch. Better rest today.

Th - 4.9 easy (9:45 min/mi) -- evening run during daughter's soccer practice. My arch hurt like hell.

Fr - 7.6 easy (9:21 min/mi) -- No arch pain. Calf and foot still not right.

Sat - 4.5 (9:12 min/mi) - loops on a grass field. Calf/foot were much better.

Su - 6 mile wup at 9:00, 14 miles at marathon pace. I could feel the calf and foot but they survived in tact.

Total - 57 miles

The 14 miles at marathon pace didn't go well. I was expecting/hoping to see 7:27 pace (BQ) with heart rates in the 169-172 bpm range, where I'd expect to be in a marathon based on past experience. It looked good early but my heart rate started to climb in the last 4 miles. The last mile was 7:39@177 bpm -- well above anything sustainable.

At this point 3:15 looks dicey, but I'll give it a shot.

[This message has been edited by gregw (edited Oct-01-2007).]

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posted Oct-01-2007 02:20 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by thereshegoes:
Congrats to [b] mrinertia and Dan !!! Great job guys!!!

mrinertia--that course is really tough. I did the 2nd 10k leg of the relay and that was tough. I think you did really well for your first marathon. Maybe for the next one pick an easier course and you'll be amazed at what a difference it can make to not have gigantic hills from mile 15-20! I ran with a friend for the last 2.5 or so and even that was brutal. A big long down hill and then one last fairly steep uphill before they finally have mercy on you and you cruise down to the finish. Nice job!!!!!

Speaking of the relay--it was so much fun!! Right before my partner came into the shoot I met rootsrunner . We chatted for a bit and then I was up and took off. He accompanied for the first mile or two as I flew through the University of Akron campus. I was the only woman at that point of the race so I got some pretty loud cheers. I felt like a superstar. It was so much fun. The one downside to that was that I went out in sub-6 pace and went careening down a huge downhill onto a wooded towpath where there was suddenly no one around. At this point it was just me, my watch, and some lactic acid Oopsy. Let's just say I didn't maintain that sub-6:00 pace for the whole 10k! I ran a REALLY stupid race, but man was it fun!! Thanks for the support, roots!!!

Otherwise, I had a pretty good week. My mileage remains relatively high and it's going even higher this week. Just a 2 week taper for me this cycle.

Mo: Easy 5.5

Tu: AM 5.25 easy; PM 13.75 including 5 mile w/u 6 x 1 (6:48, 6:46, 6:44, 6:43, 6:40, 6:40--a little slow but it was 90 degrees and humid), 2+ mi c/d including 6 x 100 strides.

We: 10 easy (8:29) in the pouring rain.

Tu: 10 easy (8:31)

Fr: 5.5 easy with no watch

Sa: AM 3 mi w/u including 4 strides. 10k race (Akron marathon relay leg) in 39:05, 5+ mile c/d including 2.5 miles ~7:00 pacing a friend to the finish. PM: 4 very easy miles.

Total: 78.25

Good weeks everyone!!

Duh! I almost forgot! Good luck to all out Oct. 7th Marathoners !!!

Duh Part 2: Congrats joplus on a big 5k pr!!!!

[This message has been edited by thereshegoes (edited Oct-01-2007).][/B]

---

thereshegoes - Your training is looking great....

Great Races folks.
57 mpw for me. Recovery week.

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posted Oct-01-2007 03:57 PM            

I hope you recover well this week!!

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posted Oct-01-2007 04:08 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by bhearn:

Anyway, for a 3-hr marathon, that works out to... ah... 10.8 seconds. Which means you actually missed it by about a second. Hmm, I guess that just adds to the sting, doesn't it? Sorry!

---

Actually my official time was 3:00:10.3 !

http://www.sportstats.ca/display-results.php?lang=eng&racecode=41637&first=&last=moriarity&page=&sortby=place&city=&sizeofpage=200&limit=2000

Then you also have to coinsider that no one takes the shortest possible route between curves etc. or the fact that since I usually stop for a couple of seconds at each water station, about 3 fewer water stops and I would've made it ...

Of course, I don't consider myself a sub-3 hour marathoner until my official time is under 3 hours, but that's an interesting piece of info.

I guess now I can experience the joys of the " what if " game for the next 6 months or so, but to be honest I'm really not all that broken up about it.

I'm a Toronto Maple Leafs fan, so I'm an expert at saying, " Just wait 'till next year! "

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posted Oct-01-2007 04:20 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by DanMoriarity:
Actually my official time was 3:00:10.3 !

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Hey, that .7 seconds is important!! I updated your results......have fun mulling all of that.

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posted Oct-01-2007 06:14 PM            

33 miles total

Fortunately someone saw me fall after I sprained and was nice enough to give me a ride the 5 miles back to my house, thank God for the kindness of strangers. I've done this before and it will be a few more days before I'm running again, although today (Monday) the swelling was down considerably and I was able to do about 24 miles on the stationary bike.

------------------
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posted Oct-01-2007 07:58 PM            

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posted Oct-01-2007 09:20 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by tss1201:
Hi gregw -- I'm running Marine Corps too! I'll be way behind you though My goal is also to BQ (3:40), and I may try for 3:30 if I'm feeling good that day. Hope your calf and foot recover quickly.

---

After I go out at 3:15 pace, I'm not sure you'll be that far behind at the end

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posted Oct-02-2007 12:24 AM            

I missed most of the week of 9/17's runs when the hip issues (piriformis, I think) finally came to a head. The good news is that the rest seems to have mostly taken care of things, the bad news is I sat out for a week right before my goal race. I'm ditching any speed work from now til the marathon too, just to be on the safe side. What effect all this may have on my goal time remains to be seen.

M - off
T - 8 easy - 7:40
W - 5 easy - 7:45
R - 8 aerobic - 7:30
F - 5 easy 7:45
Sa - off*
Su - 13 long - 8:00
total: 39 mi

Saturday wasn't supposed to be an off day, but I was shanghai'ed into being a groomsman at a wedding and couldn't get in my scheduled 7 miler. I also came down with a head cold on top of that, which I think slowed me down a bit on Sunday. Feeling better today already, though, so with luck it'll be gone in plenty of time for Twin Cities. Five days to go!

[This message has been edited by stepstep (edited Oct-02-2007).]

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posted Oct-02-2007 07:45 AM            

I do hate to hear about all of the illnesses!! Last winter, while training for Boston, I was sick for 80% of training. I had a sinus infection and then one head/chest cold after another. My whole family was a mess, really. Of course I got another nasty head cold in the days before the race and I was just miserable (ouch - especially the plane trip to Beantown). I know a lot of people say "wash your hands alot," "stay away from people," etc., but especially when you have little kids it can be tough, if not impossible to stay healthy. This is especially true during the taper when your body is in shock.

I am sharing this info b/c I have tried something different this time around. Both of my kids started getting the typical head colds, sore throat, head aches as soon as school started a month ago. I have been extra careful with them, but starting last week, when I started feeling a minor head cold coming on, I also started taking an "immunity booster." It is basically a vitamin with lots of vit c, zinc, and some other common immunity boosters (what I have is a generic version of "Airborne"). I have been taking it once a day (it says you can take it up to 3-4 times a day). I don't know how much it has helped, but I am NOT sick. You guys may want to try something like that if you are just starting to feel the signs of illness or if you tend to get sick during taper. For $5 at Target, it could be well worth it. I was amazed at the selection of products like this out there this season - it must be something new. Placebo effect? Maybe, but so far it is working.

I thought I'd share in case any of you are interested.

~R

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posted Oct-02-2007 09:42 AM               

I'm a little worried because my two best marathons come at the Flying Pig marathon. The Pig has a significant uphill between miles 6-9 that has resulted in negative splits for me both times: (1:36+1:33=3:09) and (1:36+1:32=3:08). The hills allowed me to relax in the first half.

I'm expecting a different pace scenario here. If my target is 3:03, I expect that a good day will look something like 1:30+1:33. I'm prepared for anything, even if its 1:28, in the first half.

Since I have never set foot on this course until race day, I know its going to be an on-the-fly decision during the race. I have no idea how fast I will run the first 10 miles of this race.
Add to fact that this is the first marathon I will race, where I'm already BQ'd. I can choose to take some extra risks with the early pace.

No fretting here, just sharing what's going on inside my pea-brain at this juncture in time. Hope Sunday comes soon.

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posted Oct-02-2007 12:19 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by runninlaw:
[BDublin - 10/29
deco - 3:00
uli f - 2:36
B]

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Hi runninlaw

PLEASE STRIKE ME (see above)!

I ran Berlin last w/e, but even there - under perfect conditions - I missed running a new PR of 2:36. I was fairly happy with my 2:39, but still...
Dublin is too close and too hilly to give it another shot.

Good luck to all of you and see you around in (northern hemisphere) spring!

cheers
uli

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posted Oct-02-2007 01:32 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by rootsrunner:
Okay, now 5 days to go and I admit that I'm starting to visualize the race and the pace scenario. Steamtown has a generally downhill first half and a flatter second half that has some towpath and a couple uphills near the end. It appears NOT to be a negative split course.

I'm a little worried because my two best marathons come at the Flying Pig marathon. The Pig has a significant uphill between miles 6-9 that has resulted in negative splits for me both times: (1:36+1:33=3:09) and (1:36+1:32=3:08). The hills allowed me to relax in the first half.

I'm expecting a different pace scenario here. If my target is 3:03, I expect that a good day will look something like 1:30+1:33. I'm prepared for anything, even if its 1:28, in the first half.

---

Well, any race can be a negative split if you sandbag the first half enough... not that that will necessarily get you the best time. But this year I negative split Boston, and it was the fastest of my 3 Bostons. Steamtown has a lot bigger first-half downhill, but then Boston's second-half hills are bigger, so maybe they are comparable in first-/second-half difficulty split.

I've heard the first half can trash your quads at Steamtown, same as Boston. For me the issue at Boston was always calf cramps on the hills. I found that if I backed off enough, more than would be indicated by "even effort" pacing, I survived the hills intact, with lots of energy left to crank in the finish. I'm planning on the same strategy at Portland this weekend -- the biggest hill is at 17.

With less significant hills at Steamtown, maybe the same logic would not apply, but still, I would worry if I were targeting 3:03 and ran a 1:28 first half. At Boston, at least, that's a recipe for disaster.

Hey, did you used to be ltrun??

Bob

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posted Oct-02-2007 02:23 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by runninlaw:
I have been extra careful with them, but starting last week, when I started feeling a minor head cold coming on, I also started taking an "immunity booster." It is basically a vitamin with lots of vit c, zinc, and some other common immunity boosters (what I have is a generic version of "Airborne"). I have been taking it once a day (it says you can take it up to 3-4 times a day). I don't know how much it has helped, but I am NOT sick. You guys may want to try something like that if you are just starting to feel the signs of illness or if you tend to get sick during taper.

---

For what it's worth, I also started taking one of these once I felt that twinge in my nose/throat on Saturday. It didn't make the cold go away, but where I usually suffer through a 7-10 day cold/sinus infection combo, right now I'm on day 3 and the cold seems to be subsiding. Is it the medicine or did I just get a glancing blow to begin with? Impossible to say, but it probably isn't hurting anything to load up on vitamins at this point anyway.

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posted Oct-02-2007 03:04 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by bhearn:
Well, any race can be a negative split if you sandbag the first half enough... not that that will necessarily get you the best time. But this year I negative split Boston, and it was the fastest of my 3 Bostons. Steamtown has a lot bigger first-half downhill, but then Boston's second-half hills are bigger, so maybe they are comparable in first-/second-half difficulty split.

I've heard the first half can trash your quads at Steamtown, same as Boston. For me the issue at Boston was always calf cramps on the hills. I found that if I backed off enough, more than would be indicated by "even effort" pacing, I survived the hills intact, with lots of energy left to crank in the finish. I'm planning on the same strategy at Portland this weekend -- the biggest hill is at 17.

With less significant hills at Steamtown, maybe the same logic would not apply, but still, I would worry if I were targeting 3:03 and ran a 1:28 first half. At Boston, at least, that's a recipe for disaster.

Hey, did you used to be ltrun??

Bob

---

Yes, used to be "ltrun." You ran past me at mile 3 of the 2006 Boston. Since you compared Steamtown to Boston, in my Boston performance, I did not attempt to PR in that race. Rather, I heeded everyone's advice and took it easy in the early miles and ended up with an even split race(1:37:xx+1:38:xx=3:16). I wasn't ready, however, for miles 24-26 as I had wobbly legs in the final mile.

I'm not saying that I'm going out in 1:28. Rather, I'm saying that i will be ready for it, mentally, in case the day does unfold that way.

Good point about how perceived "even effort" pace in the early miles, while on a downhill course, may still not be slow enough.

I guess I'm just going to have to run it and find out.

I'm not going to go bonkers over-analyzing the course. Keeping it simple seems the best course of action. Part of me says to approach it as if it were a flat course, and run the effort as such, and not over complicate my thoughts. After all, its going to be 3 hours of running, no matter the terrain.

Good luck at Portland. That was my very first marathon, 10 years ago in 1998.

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posted Oct-02-2007 04:14 PM               

------------------
Kent A
My Blog | My Gallery

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posted Oct-02-2007 04:26 PM            

Please put me down for a 3:45 at Manchester NH on Nov. 4. I've been registerd since July for this race, I suppose I ought to commit to a goal.

This will be my first marathon, but not my first race. HS XC and track, college crew and 5k-10k road races since. I got "serious" about running in March when my doc (and DW) basically told me that I was going to have to make some health changes (pharmaceutical or lifestyle) to manage weight, cholesterol and blood pressure.

That was 730 miles ago and the weight, cholesterol and blood pressure are under control (due mostly to lifestyle adjustment). As a bonus, I am nearly as fast as I was in HS and much stronger, 15 year later.

Last week I logged 54 miles.
M 10 @8:37
T 5 (6x0.5) 8:10avg
W 7 @ 9:48
R OFF
F 24 @ 9:22*
S OFF
S 8 @ 8:55

*I crossed a line with this run and most friends and family think I am insane. I took the day off from work to run at 4AM so that I could then travel 500 miles in a minivan with DW and 3 kids only to come back on Sunday.

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