posted Oct-11-2007 12:58 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by JimR:
On the plus side, my Saturday tempo run was a 4:15 pace,

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That's a speedy tempo pace!

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posted Oct-12-2007 07:36 AM            

I started out nice and easy hitting mile one in 7:06. I decided 7 minute miles would be a good goal.

Mile 2 was 6:51 and mile 3 was 6:42 for a 3 mile time of 20:39. I didn't burn the last tenth as I wanted this to be a controlled effort and can see I haven't lost much from the needed 3 days off.

I dont think there are enough races left or enough time left for me to get the training in to go sub 20 this year. So I will see how I feel the next 10 days or so whether the cooler weather helps my performances.

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posted Oct-12-2007 10:25 AM            

The joy of meeting the goal is worth the 19:59 of pain! Trust me!

quote:

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Originally posted by MichiganFlyer:
I took 3 days off then ran 5k alone on the road yesterday evening in 21:19.

I started out nice and easy hitting mile one in 7:06. I decided 7 minute miles would be a good goal.

Mile 2 was 6:51 and mile 3 was 6:42 for a 3 mile time of 20:39. I didn't burn the last tenth as I wanted this to be a controlled effort and can see I haven't lost much from the needed 3 days off.

I dont think there are enough races left or enough time left for me to get the training in to go sub 20 this year. So I will see how I feel the next 10 days or so whether the cooler weather helps my performances.

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posted Oct-12-2007 10:59 AM               

quote:

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Originally posted by JasonsDrivingForce:
Dig deep and forget the pain Mich! I know you can do it. A few days of relaxing can help. Don’t give up on the goal yet! If you have a relatively flat(Paved) course then go for it. Just hit the 6:27 pace and try to hang on to it as long as possible. When you see the finish line give it everything you have!

The joy of meeting the goal is worth the 19:59 of pain! Trust me!

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I agree. If it doesn't feel like your lungs are about to explode towards the end, you are not and have not been running hard enough Missing your goal and knowing you could have run faster is the worst feeling.

IMHO, if you've been doing consistant sub 1:30 400s and sub 6:50 mpm tempos runs, a sub 20min 5k should be a "breeze" on a flat course.

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posted Oct-12-2007 12:10 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by JasonsDrivingForce:
Dig deep and forget the pain Mich! I know you can do it. A few days of relaxing can help. Don’t give up on the goal yet! If you have a relatively flat(Paved) course then go for it. Just hit the 6:27 pace and try to hang on to it as long as possible. When you see the finish line give it everything you have!

The joy of meeting the goal is worth the 19:59 of pain! Trust me!

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Yeah I guess I was surprised at how close I came to sub 20 yesterday on a relatively easy run. I was only 3 blocks away when the time hit 20:00. I am still in good shape and would hate to lose all the training that got me here.

I took no warmup and set out just to run an easy 5k. Trying to run 7:00 pace (my tempo pace) has been a scary thought this Summer but if you are rested correctly tempo face feels wonderful. I definately had to put forth some effort to run sub 7 pace but I felt good the entire way.

The 1st time I ran sub 20 on the treadmill (year 2005) I had given up running for the year in early August. I had just run a 20:41 five-k and was angry that I hadn't come close to sub 20 so I threw in the towel.

After 3 days off I felt strong so went to the treadmill and ran a 5k in 19:43. WIthin the next month I pretty much broke all my treadmill records. I did this by lowering the miles but attempting a PR every week. So I need to see what I can do now that I have gone through the retired for the year emotions again. I might pull something out of the bag of tricks. Thanks for the replies.

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posted Oct-14-2007 11:57 AM               

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posted Oct-14-2007 12:29 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by JimR:
20:33 for me today. Legs were stiff from the get go. My next best opportunity comes in early December. I've got a race or two along the way to get in. I'm going to be targetting regular tempo runs as my means for the next few weeks and get the volume back where it was a few weeks ago.

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JimR,

20:33 is a good effort. Keep it up! Good luck in December! Are you a cold weather runner? I tend to fall apart when the temps get below freezing or above 90.

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posted Oct-15-2007 06:21 PM            

Race day (yesterday) turned out to be a perfect day for running: sunny, lo 50's, light breeze. I started out at a brisk, but controlled pace, allowing many runners to charge out ahead of me. As I settled in, people started falling back. About a half mile in, I made a conscious decision to expend a little extra energy to try to catch up to a pack just ahead of me. I never quite caught the pack, but I continued to pick off runners as they fell back.

I hit the mile in 6:16, the fastest I have gone through an opening mile in a long time. The best part was that I was still feeling strong and comfortable. I reminded myself to stay relaxed and maintain form. As I continued to catch runners ahead of me, I went through two miles in 12:33. At that point, I was mentally starting to compose my race report. I was thinking of a heading of "Breakthrough Race!" I realized that if I maintained pace, or even slowed slighty, I was looking at a time in the mid-19's.

I had jogged the last mile or so of the course before the race to get an idea of how much was left from key landmarks, so when I got to a spot that I thought was a little over five minutes to go, I looked at my watch and thought, "Holy s**t!
If I don't get moving, I'm not even going to break 20!" That was enough of a kick in the butt to get me to push hard through the last kilometer. When I crossed the line, the clock read 19:52. I'm sure I had a huge smile on my face. I had run 19:50 in the spring on a course that, while I cross-checked it for accuracy, was un-certified.

Sorry this was so long. If anyone is still reading, thank you.
I'll make a separate post discussing what I think went wrong between two miles and the end of the race. Hint: I believe it was related to the "Short Course Prevention Factor."

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posted Oct-15-2007 08:14 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by OldXCguy:
I had planned to travel to Saratoga this weekend for the National Masters 5K cross country championships, but when my club was unable to field a 50's team, I decided it wouldn't be worth giving up most of my weekend to go and run a mediocre race. Instead, I decided to stay home and do a local 5K that was billed as "a flat and fast certified course."

Race day (yesterday) turned out to be a perfect day for running: sunny, lo 50's, light breeze. I started out at a brisk, but controlled pace, allowing many runners to charge out ahead of me. As I settled in, people started falling back. About a half mile in, I made a conscious decision to expend a little extra energy to try to catch up to a pack just ahead of me. I never quite caught the pack, but I continued to pick off runners as they fell back.

I hit the mile in 6:16, the fastest I have gone through an opening mile in a long time. The best part was that I was still feeling strong and comfortable. I reminded myself to stay relaxed and maintain form. As I continued to catch runners ahead of me, I went through two miles in 12:33. At that point, I was mentally starting to compose my race report. I was thinking of a heading of "Breakthrough Race!" I realized that if I maintained pace, or even slowed slighty, I was looking at a time in the mid-19's.

I had jogged the last mile or so of the course before the race to get an idea of how much was left from key landmarks, so when I got to a spot that I thought was a little over five minutes to go, I looked at my watch and thought, "Holy s**t!
If I don't get moving, I'm not even going to break 20!" That was enough of a kick in the butt to get me to push hard through the last kilometer. When I crossed the line, the clock read 19:52. I'm sure I had a huge smile on my face. I had run 19:50 in the spring on a course that, while I cross-checked it for accuracy, was un-certified.

Sorry this was so long. If anyone is still reading, thank you.
I'll make a separate post discussing what I think went wrong between two miles and the end of the race. Hint: I believe it was related to the "Short Course Prevention Factor."

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Hey XC,

This is great news! Just judging by posts of yours I'd read, I honestly believed that you were going to do it. As far as I could see the main thing that has kept you from breaking through sooner has been the courses you've been running. That's why I don't like to run those off road courses when I'm looking to run a good time. Even though we have a very legitimate reason to have run slower on them, it plants seeds doubt in our minds--at least that's how it is with me.

"I was mentally starting to compose my race report. I was thinking of a heading of "Breakthrough Race!"

I can completely relate to this and it's a very bad habit to get into. I'm much better now, but have had to work hard at it and am not completely cured. Whenever I catch myself doing it my mantra becomes "focus, focus, focus, stay in the here and now" repeat.

As far as that last mile, I think that a more likely explanation is that the mile markers were slightly misplaced, or a combination of that and the "short course preventionn factor". Even on certified courses this happens all the time. The overall distance is accurate, but the setup crew that places the markers isn't always as careful as it should be. Just one more reason for us to give it our best until we've crossed under the banner.

You've broken the barrier now, and I'm sure there will be more good ones to follow. I'm happy for you.

Well done.

[This message has been edited by Jim24315 (edited Oct-15-2007).]

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posted Oct-15-2007 10:15 PM            

I fully realize that mentally composing a race report with a third of the race left is far from a good thing. Even though I felt comfortable and confident, one needs to remain focused in the present the whole way, something I had been doing well in my last few races until that little lapse. Luckily, I was able to snap back into a racing mindset before much damage was done.

I think it was the short course prevention factor that accounted for my slow last mile. My Garmin 305 was in complete agreement with the first two mile markers, so either both were off; or I slowed to a 6:40 pace on the third mile (allowing 40 seconds for the last .11), which I don't think is likely because I was still running pretty well; or most likely, it was the SPF. Both my Garmin, and a subsequent measuring on a mapping site produced readings of 3.15 miles. The extra .04 doesn't sound like much, but at my pace, it adds about 15 seconds.

I understand the science of measuring courses, how a Jones counter is calibrated, and then used for multiple trips over the course to cut every turn as tightly as possible. What I don't understand, and don't agree with, is how the science is then discarded and a fudge factor is added to be sure the course is not short. I understand the rationale, that race directors are afraid that if someone sets a record, and the course is subsequently found to be short, the record would be invalidated. But for every one person that sets a record, thousands of us (maybe tens of thousands) are denied the times to which we are entitled. Fifteen seconds would have made a big difference to anyone's times, especially those people in the 20:00-20:15 range.

Hey, excuse my rant, but I've been wanting to get that off my chest for a long time.

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posted Oct-16-2007 12:47 AM            

Way to go! It sounds like you ran a really hard race. Congrats on that. It is really tough to push through the pain when you are that close to your goal. Keep up the good work keeping dropping those PR's. So what is your next goal now?

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posted Oct-16-2007 07:35 AM            

Congratulations!

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posted Oct-17-2007 12:56 PM               

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posted Oct-20-2007 11:58 AM            

Went out this morning for a 5k. VERY WINDY conditions, fairly large up hill, and then some stupid switch back handi-cap style ramp in the middle that was narrow and ate up time.

19:59!

Don't really know my splits, because the 1 mile mark was off I believe (It said i hit 1 mile at 5:41, but i don't buy it, because it seemed very quick.) Made a hairpin turn there, to go straight into the wind for the second mile. Hit that at 12:39, which actually seemed accurate, but the guy reading the times said "12:53." Then we had another turn, into more wind, over the handi-cap ramp switch backs. At that point, it split 5k and 10k, so i lost anyone i was trying to catch, as most of then went towords 10k. I saw the building we finished by, it looked about 700m away(just a guess), and i had 2:20 to get there. As I rounded the last turn, to see the finish it said 19:47, so from that point i went all out, and hit the mat at 19:59!

I did have two good weeks of training leading up to this, after my last 10 mile competitive run.

22 mile week, with 4x800 mile pace, and then 26 mile week with 4x800 mile pace.

Keep at it Michigan Flyer, it'll come for you too!

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posted Oct-20-2007 01:59 PM            

Jason, surprisingly, the effort wasn't all that tough. I felt like I was going at a strong, controlled pace through the first couple of miles. I tried to focus on form, breathing, and staying relaxed. I wasn't thinking much about time, more about trying to catch people in front of me. Fortunately for me, every time I passed someone, there was someone else just ahead, and I believe that was instrumental in my running a (relatively) fast time. At around two miles, some guy I was passing started talking to me, saying, "Come on, we can break 19" (we couldn't), and stuff like that. I said to him, "Stay with me. I feel great." The only place that the effort felt really tough was in the last half mile or so, when I thought the sub-20 was in doubt and I pushed pretty hard.

I think we need to renew our discussion about properly pacing a 5K, because we neglected to include the annoying (and I believe unfair) Short Course Prevention Factor. I'll save that for another time.

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posted Oct-23-2007 04:14 PM               

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posted Oct-23-2007 04:17 PM            

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posted Oct-24-2007 11:03 AM            

Believe it or not my time was 1 minute and 23 seconds slower than I had run the week before with my daughter in the stroller. I had a 19:50(broke 20:00 atleast) this week and an 18:27 the week before. I just can not get motivated enough to give it everything I have when I run without the kids. My last quarter of a mile time was almost 30 seconds faster with the stroller than it was without.

Now I did run a 10 mile race the day before so that probably had something to do with it. I have another flat race in 2 weeks that I plan on running with the double stroller. I am hoping to break 18:00 there. However, I have a half marathon the next day so I have to save something for that race as well.

I have actually started to ramp my miles up. I got 23 miles in this weekend and I should be able to do about 40 this week. That should help me considerably with the longer distance runs I have coming up. It won’t hurt with the short ones either.

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posted Oct-24-2007 12:15 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by JasonsDrivingForce:
I My last quarter of a mile time was almost 30 seconds faster with the stroller than it was without.

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Sorry for the thread drift, but this reminded me of something. There is a lady who recently moved away who was an active local runner. More often than not she ran with her double stroller with twin toddlers. She ran 5K right at 20 minutes and 8K at 33 minutes with these kids, frequently beating me by 10-15 seconds so I got to see her run quite a bit. But she was really no faster when she ran without them. I was talking to her about it one day and she said that, on a smooth road course , flat or with only gentle hills, she was actually faster pushing the stroller. This held true for her in distances up to 10K.

In fact, the times I was able to beat her was when she ran without the stroller. Maybe part of that was I never wanted to be seen as the a--hole at the finish outsprinting the lady pushing her kids.

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posted Oct-24-2007 01:41 PM               

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posted Oct-24-2007 01:46 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by TomThumbs:
Sorry for the thread drift, but this reminded me of something. There is a lady who recently moved away who was an active local runner. More often than not she ran with her double stroller with twin toddlers. She ran 5K right at 20 minutes and 8K at 33 minutes with these kids, frequently beating me by 10-15 seconds so I got to see her run quite a bit. But she was really no faster when she ran without them. I was talking to her about it one day and she said that, on a smooth road course , flat or with only gentle hills, she was actually faster pushing the stroller. This held true for her in distances up to 10K.

In fact, the times I was able to beat her was when she ran without the stroller. Maybe part of that was I never wanted to be seen as the a--hole at the finish outsprinting the lady pushing her kids.

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The trick is to smile and wave at the kids in the stroller as you pass by her in the finishing stretch. If possible, handout Halloween candy as well.

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posted Oct-24-2007 09:54 PM            

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Originally posted by Scott3294:
I can relate to your last comment. The race I ran last week, I got beat by 5 seconds by a 12 year old. I had a conscious decision to make...run the kid down or lay back and not be the jerk that had to beat a 12 year old. I opted for the latter....the little bas%^*&.

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Scott, I chuckled at that one. Yeah, you either have to put them away early, away from the finish line crowds, or just suck it up and take your lumps. You were a gentleman.

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posted Oct-25-2007 09:05 AM            

Last week was a different story. He beat me by 50 seconds on that hilly course. I just didn’t have it in me that week. Oh well, now the 14 year old is only about 5 seconds behind me in the series race we run in. I congratulate him after every race but next week he is going down! Just kidding! A little friendly competition never hurts. I just never thought I would be competing(trailing, actually) someone who is less than half my age!

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posted Oct-25-2007 09:36 AM               

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posted Oct-25-2007 10:45 AM            

When should we start the 2008 version? I've just commenced my base training for a series of Spring 2008 races and reckon others may be in the same boat?

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