posted Oct-01-2007 12:29 PM            

Noone has mentioned this very poor positive split either.
You are going out too fast.

I have finished a few 5ks this year in the 20:30 range and all my last tenth finishes are around 36 seconds. If you can only manage a 46 at the end you have spent too much energy in the early part of the race which costs you seconds at the end.

I like to run miles 2 and 3 at the same pace with the exception of the last quarter mile of mile 3 which makes mile 3 faster than mile 2 by a few seconds. It looks like you run mile one at much too fast a pace and then try to hang on the rest of the race, Next time slow it down a touch on mile one and see if you have more left for the final 2 miles.

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posted Oct-01-2007 02:52 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Jim24315:
P.R. (6:17, 6:38, 6:51, :46) = 20:32
You are 33 seconds away from breaking 20

You should try to lose some weight and run more. If you are getting sore I suspect that your training pace is too fast. Running more will help with the weight, and of course your endurance. Except for 1 or 2 quality runs per week, run everything else at 2 minutes per mile slower than your current 5k pace and try to build up to at least 40 mpw. It's important that you keep most of your miles at a comfortable pace and do the build up very gradually.

If you can run 20:32 off what little you've been doing over a such a relatively short time, you can probably break 19 within a year if you are willing to put in the work.

[This message has been edited by Jim24315 (edited Oct-01-2007).]

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I suspect you're on to something with training paces being too fast, especially since hardly any of it is a quality run.

I have some trouble trying to slow it down when training, even though I know it's the right thing to do. I make the same mistakes as a lot of newer runners, feeling like every run has to be at a hard pace, and I need to feel tired afterwards.

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posted Oct-03-2007 03:13 PM            

My weekly mileage with no race is about 50 miles. In the weeks that I race, I average about 40 miles. My quality workouts include:
Weekly Tempo: pace from 7:13 to 7:25, for 5.5 miles + 3 miles
CV: 8x1/2 mile under 3:20 with 1:20 rest, 6x1k with 1:20 rest

I also changed my pre-race routine. I followed advices from some of you: running some easy miles the day before instead of not running. Run slightly longer warmup prior to the 5k (e.g. run the course once), and 10 strides or so.

Last Sun, after coming back from Osaka at the beginning of Sep (just a leisure trip and not running in the World Championship), I ran a 5k and only managed 21:09. I felt tired after 1 mile.

Any advice will be appreciated.

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posted Oct-03-2007 03:29 PM            

It sounds like you are dissapointed in a 21:09 when you missed your PR by a mere 4 seconds? Thats not bad at all...

What was your mile split? I usually run the 1st mile of a 5k in around 6:30 and feel somewhat tired but then I try to latch onto another runner and use them to pull me through mile 2. Are you running mile one too fast? If you can do 8X 800 in 3:20 with 80 seconds rest you should be able to go under 21 quite easily I would think.

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posted Oct-03-2007 03:40 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by The Matador:

I suspect you're on to something with training paces being too fast, especially since hardly any of it is a quality run.

I have some trouble trying to slow it down when training, even though I know it's the right thing to do. I make the same mistakes as a lot of newer runners, feeling like every run has to be at a hard pace, and I need to feel tired afterwards.

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Admitting is the first step! Seriously, get more easy runs in...the kind where you feel like you could continue for another hour, if not more.

Then, get one or two speed workouts in a week. Let the easy runs allow you to recover, heal, and continue to develop your aerobic system, while then having the speed work build up anaerobic threshold, strength, and speed.

My normal, non speedwork (or long) run is 6 to 12 miles now, and most of them are 2+ minutes over my 5K pace. Quite a few of those miles are with my wife, which puts me at 3.5 - 4 minutes over my 5K pace.

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posted Oct-03-2007 04:53 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by MichiganFlyer:
gcklo....focus on breaking 21 in your next race.

It sounds like you are dissapointed in a 21:09 when you missed your PR by a mere 4 seconds? Thats not bad at all...

What was your mile split? I usually run the 1st mile of a 5k in around 6:30 and feel somewhat tired but then I try to latch onto another runner and use them to pull me through mile 2. Are you running mile one too fast? If you can do 8X 800 in 3:20 with 80 seconds rest you should be able to go under 21 quite easily I would think.

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For last Sun's race, I don't have mile splits since the markers were for the 10k folks and we had slightly different starting lines.

For the 5k PR that I set in Aug, my first mile was 6:40, 2nd mile at 13:22. I slowed down in mile 3 and ended up in 21:05.

Because I felt very easy in hitting 8x1/2 mile at about 3:17 to 3:19 with 1:20 rest, I thought I should be able to break 21. That's why I was disappointed getting 21:09. Did I use the wrong training? Or did I do something wrong on race day? I have no idea now. One of the adjustments I made 2 months ago was to change my speed intervals, e.g. 8x1/2 mile with 1/4 mile jog to the CV runs. When I was doing speed intervals, I did 8x1/2 between 3:03 to 3:07 with a 1/4 jog with ease. I also used to do 6x1k in 3:55 with 600 m jog. I slowed both of them down and reduce the rest time to build my stamina.

But so far, it seems like I haven't really gained a lot. What gives?

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[This message has been edited by gcklo (edited Oct-03-2007).]

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posted Oct-03-2007 08:28 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Docster:
Admitting is the first step! Seriously, get more easy runs in...the kind where you feel like you could continue for another hour, if not more.

Then, get one or two speed workouts in a week. Let the easy runs allow you to recover, heal, and continue to develop your aerobic system, while then having the speed work build up anaerobic threshold, strength, and speed.

My normal, non speedwork (or long) run is 6 to 12 miles now, and most of them are 2+ minutes over my 5K pace. Quite a few of those miles are with my wife, which puts me at 3.5 - 4 minutes over my 5K pace.

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I've taken it slow so far this week:

2.15 mi @ 8:49 recovery
4.0 mi @ 8:17
2.0 mi @ 8:20

Today was speed work
1 mile warm up
4 x 800m @ 3:17, 3:15, 3:03, 2:58, with 2 min walks between.

Definately felt better and stronger out there, probably because i didn't burn it the previous 2 days.
1 mile cool down

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posted Oct-03-2007 09:03 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by gcklo:
For last Sun's race, I don't have mile splits since the markers were for the 10k folks and we had slightly different starting lines.

For the 5k PR that I set in Aug, my first mile was 6:40, 2nd mile at 13:22. I slowed down in mile 3 and ended up in 21:05.

Because I felt very easy in hitting 8x1/2 mile at about 3:17 to 3:19 with 1:20 rest, I thought I should be able to break 21. That's why I was disappointed getting 21:09. Did I use the wrong training? Or did I do something wrong on race day? I have no idea now. One of the adjustments I made 2 months ago was to change my speed intervals, e.g. 8x1/2 mile with 1/4 mile jog to the CV runs. When I was doing speed intervals, I did 8x1/2 between 3:03 to 3:07 with a 1/4 jog with ease. I also used to do 6x1k in 3:55 with 600 m jog. I slowed both of them down and reduce the rest time to build my stamina.

But so far, it seems like I haven't really gained a lot. What gives?

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I don't expect you to believe this, so you can take it however you want, but even 3:17-3:19 is too fast for your current 5k condition. CV's are within a couple seconds of 10k pace, dependending on how fast you run a 10k. For elites, CV's are a little slower than 10k pace, and for recreational runners they can be a little faster. Based on your 5k, I get 3:28 for 800's and 4:20 for 1000's.

I'de go back to slowing them down with the shorter rest and doing nothing shorter than 1000's. Forget the 800's. If it's too easy, just do more reps and/or increase your overall mileage. Speed is not your problem. You need more endurance--clearly. You've been doing the most imporant thing, which is getting out there and doing the work. Your mileage is looking decent these days too. Have patience--your times will come down. The same thing has happened to me--I thought I was stuck on a plateau and then, seemingly out of nowhere. I'd pop a good one--then another would follow--off the plateau to a new level. Again, have patience and consider what I said. You'll get there.

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posted Oct-03-2007 09:20 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Jim24315:
I don't expect you to believe this, so you can take it however you want, but even 3:17-3:19 is too fast for your current 5k condition. CV's are within a couple seconds of 10k pace, dependending on how fast you run a 10k. For elites, CV's are a little slower than 10k pace, and for recreational runners they can be a little faster. Based on your 5k, I get 3:28 for 800's and 4:20 for 1000's.

I'de go back to slowing them down with the shorter rest and doing nothing shorter than 1000's. Forget the 800's. If it's too easy, just do more reps and/or increase your overall mileage. Speed is not your problem. You need more endurance--clearly. You've been doing the most imporant thing, which is getting out there and doing the work. Your mileage is looking decent these days too. Have patience--your times will come down. The same thing has happened to me--I thought I was stuck on a plateau and then, seemingly out of nowhere. I'd pop a good one--then another would follow--off the plateau to a new level. Again, have patience and consider what I said. You'll get there.

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Hi Jim,

I have been running 1k repeats with 1:30 rest at 4:08 to 4:10.
Should I, e.g. run them somewhere at 4:15 to 4:20 and reduce the rest time to 1min?

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posted Oct-03-2007 10:57 PM               

1) 30 minutes or so (a longer tempo run for me), alternating 3 min. @ 10K intensity, 3 min @ slightly sub-threshold. For me, with a max HR of around 200, this meant alternating between 3 min @ HR 185 and 3 min @ HR 175. Because a portion of the second 3 min. was spent letting HR slowly fall, I averaged a HR of about 181, or about 91%. This was a particularly good workout for races on rolling hills, since it forced me to monitor effort and be willing to surge repeatedly

2) Closer to goal race: 3 mile tempo/fartlek as follows: 400 @ 85-90 secs (1-2 mile pace), float for 200 until HR dropped to threshold, then maintain for 200; repeat 6 times. Push as hard as possible in the final 200.

Workout 2, repeated once a week for the three weeks prior to goal race, left me supercharged and mean on race day, with speed to burn and no fear about using it.

This is, I discovered later, nothing more than my own rediscovery of the Mono Fartlek. Google it.

Anyway, either of these workouts would discipline you a little in a needed way, tempering your desire to burn it all in the first mile. Just writing about these workouts makes me want to get back out there and run them. Workout 1 is a great lead in to workout 2. Both of them end up making threshold seem like child's play; they'd probably be good as an occasional addition to half marathon training, if used sparingly.

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posted Oct-03-2007 11:00 PM               

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posted Oct-04-2007 10:34 AM               

quote:

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Originally posted by gcklo:
Hi Jim,

I have been running 1k repeats with 1:30 rest at 4:08 to 4:10.
Should I, e.g. run them somewhere at 4:15 to 4:20 and reduce the rest time to 1min?

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If you find that this pace seems slow to you, yes. Tinman actually says 1 min recovery per K. I'd also recommend doing some 1600's and tempos. These aren't your typical 5k workouts--eventually you would do some fasting running--but I'd do this longer, slower stuff with short rest for a few months at least. You could, and should, also race a 5k once or twice a month. This will help you gauge your progress, and also be a good supplement to your other runs.

Think about it--you've been running workouts at a faster pace, and in some instances a MUCH faster pace, than you've been able to race at. You have plenty of speed but you tire quickly. These workouts will help big time, but it won't happen overnight. However the progress will be steady and you should eventually reach a higher peak than with a quick fix approach.. It took me 3 years to go from 21:30 to 19:04, and at times I thought I wasn't getting anywhere, but I am so glad I had the patience and trust that it would pay off. That might not be a huge improvement by some people's standards, but when you are past 60 it is.

And yes, the tempos that Kudzu mentioned are good to mix in, although I'd stay away from the goal pace stuff. Keep them at around 30 sec per mile slower than current 5k race pace. The big key is that you want to do your workouts consistently, week after week, without spending time on the shelf. If you run within yourself and stay consistent you will keep getting faster. I'm impressed that you have worked your miles up to 40's and 50's. It has to pay off if you stay with it.

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posted Oct-05-2007 08:44 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Jim24315:

It took me 3 years to go from 21:30 to 19:04, and at times I thought I wasn't getting anywhere, but I am so glad I had the patience and trust that it would pay off. That might not be a huge improvement by some people's standards, but when you are past 60 it is.

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Jim,

If you don’t mind me asking, “What do you find to be more difficult to sustain with age? Speed or Endurance?”. I have often wondered what goes first.

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posted Oct-05-2007 09:20 AM               

quote:

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Originally posted by JasonsDrivingForce:
Jim,

If you don’t mind me asking, “What do you find to be more difficult to sustain with age? Speed or Endurance?”. I have often wondered what goes first.

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Speed, without a doubt.

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posted Oct-05-2007 10:33 PM            

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posted Oct-06-2007 10:33 AM            

I've always had issues with a big drop-off at distance ... my half marathon time last year was 1:48, which extrapolates out to a 3:47 marathon, but I ended up running a 4:00, including a horrible death march around mile 23.

From what I've read, the slow-down at the marathon distances seems to be the need for a bigger base, so that's something for me to work on. But what about the shorter distances? I know the calculators are just approximations, but it seems I mostly read about folks running 5:50ish mile PRs and if they find themselves slower than the predictions, it's usually low 20s in the 5K, but I'm way way off that! Anyone else find themselves that far off that calculations?

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posted Oct-06-2007 11:19 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by Jim24315:

Speed, without a doubt.

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I'll throw in the other factor, recovery. Hitting the next big workout quickly gets tougher with age.

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posted Oct-08-2007 10:37 AM            

A slowest of the year time of 21:30. The race before this I ran a 21:26.

I was hoping for 20:30. Ever since my treadmill went I have had some slower times. Well back to the drawing board. I still believe I need a little time off to rejuvenate.

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posted Oct-08-2007 11:57 AM            

This might be my absolute favorite thread. So many of us running similar workouts in quest of the same goal! As I've noted, I'm mostly running cross country races this time of year, so a sub-20 is mostly out of the question, although I am considering taking a crack at it at a nearby 5K this Sunday, which is billed as flat and fast.

I ran a local 10K last Sunday (9/30), which turned out to be 5.86 miles (according to my Garmin 305 and a mapping site) when course marshals sent us on a shortcut. My time of 39:33 looked good, but was impossible for my current state of fitness. It converts to 41:55 for a full 10K, which is still pretty good for me, especially since it was a very hilly course.
I had done a tempo run on the same course a couple of weeks earlier, and was hard-pressed to run 7:20's, so I thought 7:00's would be a solid goal for the race. I got into a good groove early, breezing through the first half of the race (mostly downhill) relatively effortlessly in 20:30, which is about what I've been running for 5K races. The second half worked out to 21:25 (adjusted for the short course), which was a lot closer to even splits than it would appear, since it was a steady uphill climb back to the finish.

In the past, I have run 30-60+ seconds slower on that course than on flatter, faster ones, so my 6:45 per mile average works out to more like 6:35-6:40. According to Daniels' tables, that woud be equivalent to 19:45-19:55 for 5K, so naturally I'm please with that.

What has everyone else been up to?

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posted Oct-08-2007 02:09 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by OldXCguy:

What has everyone else been up to?

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Had a good week last week, a recent high milage total, with quality (23 miles), slowed down on my easy runs, sped up on the speed work outs.

Looking to do 26 this week, with threshold on wed., then take it relatively easy next week as I try on Oct. 20th to beat the 20 minute mark.

Also, I bought Daniels' running formula, and it's been helpful so far in guiding my training.

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posted Oct-09-2007 03:16 PM            

I have also tried to follow Tinman principles (as I understand them) - increase/maintain mileage as much as possible; do two "big workouts" a week plus striders; and for one of the big workouts, CV reps, but, when not doing CV reps, build lactate at a slower pace.

My 5K times leveled off. I ran a 20:24, 21:19, 20:29, and a 20:15 over the last few months. I think I was in 19:59 or better shape at the last one (20:15), but a 6:09 opening mile did me in. In addition, a couple weeks before the race I crashed a mountain bike forcing me to miss a week of key workouts. I did the miles, but not the quality.

I have been amazed at the results of other race distances. I have been running for the last seven years, and I thought any improvements would come by 10 - 15 seconds at the most. However, a five mile race I run every year went from 35:11 to 34:17. My 10K PR improved from 44:30 to 43:39. And, just last Sunday my half marathon PR went from 1:44:52 to 1:38:12.

My next 5K will be April 2008, where I hope this year's training will get me a 19:59 or better.

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posted Oct-10-2007 03:19 PM               

We'll see.

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posted Oct-10-2007 03:58 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by MaineRunner2001:
Hello everyone,

I have also tried to follow Tinman principles (as I understand them) - increase/maintain mileage as much as possible; do two "big workouts" a week plus striders; and for one of the big workouts, CV reps, but, when not doing CV reps, build lactate at a slower pace.

My 5K times leveled off. I ran a 20:24, 21:19, 20:29, and a 20:15 over the last few months. I think I was in 19:59 or better shape at the last one (20:15), but a 6:09 opening mile did me in. In addition, a couple weeks before the race I crashed a mountain bike forcing me to miss a week of key workouts. I did the miles, but not the quality.

I have been amazed at the results of other race distances. I have been running for the last seven years, and I thought any improvements would come by 10 - 15 seconds at the most. However, a five mile race I run every year went from 35:11 to 34:17. My 10K PR improved from 44:30 to 43:39. And, just last Sunday my half marathon PR went from 1:44:52 to 1:38:12.

My next 5K will be April 2008, where I hope this year's training will get me a 19:59 or better.

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Year To Date Training

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My experience had been pretty much the same with Tinman training. I had set new PR's at every distance but was stuck on 19:35 at 5k for more than a year until last month when I ran 19:11 and 19:04 within 2 weeks of each other. What really suprised me was that my key workout before those 2 races was 6 x 1600 at HM pace with a 200 jog. The 5k improvement was a welcome but unexpected benefit of the HM training I'd been doing.

So don't be surprised if you suddenly pop one out of nowhere. The fact that you seen such improvement at other distances makes it clear that you are getting more and more fit. The 5k will eventually come.

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posted Oct-11-2007 09:04 AM            

I am excited about the upcoming months - Maine's fall/winter/spring. I plan to continue one or two big workouts a week - a 10 to 14 mile progression run, a 5 X 1K CV workout, or a four to eight mile tinman tempo pace run. I will also do 8 X 100 M striders once a week.

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posted Oct-11-2007 12:03 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by MaineRunner2001:

I am excited about the upcoming months - Maine's fall/winter/spring. I plan to continue one or two big workouts a week - a 10 to 14 mile progression run, a 5 X 1K CV workout, or a four to eight mile tinman tempo pace run. I will also do 8 X 100 M striders once a week.

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Sounds like a good plan. For me, the excitement is what it's all about. Don't lose that. You might experiment with adding another one or two 1K CV reps over time. Also, no reason not to do a tempo run, interval workout, and long run (perhaps with most of it at a fairly slow pace, picking it up toward the end) each week. Also, you should be OK with another day or two a week with strides.

Good luck and keep us posted.

OXCG

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