posted Sep-08-2007 07:10 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by aurang:
Longer and slower is the way to go, I think. Those are too short, too fast and too stressful to be as useful. Try running 800s in around 3:10-3:15 with 400 metres rest in between.

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'tis true, they are and I actually wouldn't even recommend them. 800's or 1600's are my usual choice, but every now and then I feel I need to get that leg speed up a bit (something I lack) so I'll do a set of 400s or even 200s to pick that up.

Today was 7 1/2 miles tempo, embedded 25 minutes at about 6:55 pace. I won't have a chance to run a 5k for a couple of weeks to see where I'm at but things seem to be moving in the right direction.

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posted Sep-10-2007 09:30 AM            

Poor run for me yesterday. Click link to see race report.

5k in 21:25. Hopefully this will motivate me to train harder and smarter.

Splits

6:57
7:05
6:48
0:36

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posted Sep-10-2007 08:07 PM            

I should note that in reading your race report, you sound like a popular guy. You seemed to know everyone you were passing during your race. ;-)

I ran a race last week that was about 40% cross country. The rest was on roads. While my time of 20:25 may not sound like much, I was thrilled that I ran over a minute faster than I had done on the same course in 2004 and 2005. (I missed the race last year due to an injury.) At my age, I'm ecstatic anytime I can run faster than I did a year or two (or three in this case) ago. I've been training well and staying mostly healthy for some time now, so I'm optimistic that even better times are ahead.

I should acknowledge, as I have in the past, that I consult with Tinman regarding my training. He has helped to keep me training well and racing better and better. I know he occasionally shows up here, or you can find him on his website: www.therunzone.com

Good luck!

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posted Sep-10-2007 09:54 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by MichiganFlyer:
http://www.coolrunning.com/forums/Forum8/HTML/010528.shtml

Poor run for me yesterday. Click link to see race report.

5k in 21:25. Hopefully this will motivate me to train harder and smarter.

Splits

6:57
7:05
6:48
0:36

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Those are pretty good splits considering the course.

St Johns has a 5k race in Oct that is flat and fast
http://www.playmakers.com/racecalendar/event.php?raceid=274

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posted Sep-12-2007 08:02 PM            

[This message has been edited by orbis11 (edited Sep-12-2007).]

[This message has been edited by orbis11 (edited Sep-12-2007).]

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posted Sep-12-2007 10:07 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by orbis11:
My first post. Last 2 5ks at 20:05 and 20:07. I have been reading this forum for about a year and would like to thank everyone for the useful advice. I've dropped over two minutes off of my 5k time in 5 months by actually cutting my mileage which consisted of too much slow running. The following changes lowered my time: 1) Shortening my long run from 14 miles to around 8 to 10 miles but increasing the pace of those runs. 2) Began moderate interval training twice a week at the local track usually 4 to 6 x800@3:05 w/2 minutes rest. Usually attempt one mile a week @ 6:05-6:15. 3) A few 4 mile runs at 7:00 to 7:30 pace. The other days are just easy runs. I average 30+ per week. Twice recently, I witnessed the clock at just seconds over 20 before crossing the mats. UGH!, I am so close. Running faster at the track is more painful than my past slogging of easy miles in the park, but intervals lowered my times from the 22s to the low 20s. Unfortunately for me, there was no improvement until doing some tough repeats on the oval. I’m in my 40s. Looking forward to the fall weather. Good luck to all of you.

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When you go through a period of increased mileage, then drop it, your times will certainly get better. Then they will ceiling and you won't improve until you repeat the cycle. Do this for a bit, then put it back up again for a while, etc. etc.

I'm just coming off a cycle of higher mileage and entering a recovery week, then back up for a couple of weeks before I get ready for my attempt at sub 20.

[This message has been edited by JimR (edited Sep-12-2007).]

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posted Sep-12-2007 11:55 PM               

Although I'm sure that orbis11 is not the only one, my guess is that those who have improved by cutting their long runs from 14 to 8-10 miles are outnumbered by those who keep them up. For me the improvement from increasing the distance and frequency of long runs has often been dramatic, even as I've gotten older.

[This message has been edited by Jim24315 (edited Sep-12-2007).]

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posted Sep-13-2007 02:37 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by Jim24315:
From what I've observed over the years, the type and amount of training that runners respond best to can vary a lot from one to another. It seems like I've always run my best times at peak mileage or close to it.

Although I'm sure that orbis11 is not the only one, my guess is that those who have improved by cutting their long runs from 14 to 8-10 miles are outnumbered by those who keep them up. For me the improvement from increasing the distance and frequency of long runs has often been dramatic, even as I've gotten older.

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I'm also one of those runners who has historically performed better with lower mileage - similar to the ideas around FIRST. A more balanced approach would likely improve my PRs (19:07 5k / 39:35 10k) but my work schedule becomes an issue. so, I figured out what works for me and train accordingly. I'll adapt my training to the race distance making sure I space out my 5ks and HM goal races.

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posted Sep-13-2007 10:50 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by RunAsics:
I'm also one of those runners who has historically performed better with lower mileage - similar to the ideas around FIRST. A more balanced approach would likely improve my PRs (19:07 5k / 39:35 10k) but my work schedule becomes an issue. so, I figured out what works for me and train accordingly. I'll adapt my training to the race distance making sure I space out my 5ks and HM goal races.

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Interesting because your 5k/10k times are right in line. Usually you'll see a 5k PR that is noticeably superior to the 10k in runners who don't run many miles. It also makes me think you should improve a lot with more miles, which is not what you say your experience has been. I wonder if you didn't try to do too much between harder workouts and races when you tried running more.

Btw, our times are very close (19:11 / 39:36 -- both in past 45 days).

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posted Sep-17-2007 11:29 AM            

I cannot run nearly as fast on the trail as I can on road or track but my aches and pains have all but dissapeared so I am quite pleased with this trail that I try to run daily about 5 miles total running.

This morning I ran on the road and had splits of something like

8:41
8:21
8:06
8:04
8:06
7:35

Understandably the 1st mile is slowest as I am just waking up and warming up but its also uphill. Mile 6 is downhill and at the end of the run. The other miles are pretty close. This is a typical road run for me or 5k race effort....miles are somewhat close but always a fastest and a slowest mile.

From running on the trail loop I have found out some very interesting stats. I like to hit my LAP button on the stop watch and when I am just running to log miles the LAP splits on the trail are eerily identical.

Something like

3:50.82
3:50.32
3:51.77
3:50.84

I do have some waypoints where I know where my time should be at such as a certain Ash tree I hit around 2:00 during a loop....if I hit that Ash tree in 1:58 the next time it almost certainly guarantees a faster lap. Two seconds is a big difference in running over a quarter mile.

The striking thing to me is the conistency that one can run laps at. The treadmill makes it easy. The road is almost impossible with uphills, downhills and the like. But once you start to run the same loop over and over and see how easy it is to be consistent it might surprise you. I mean we are talking 1 second distance in 240 second laps. What is that 0.25% slower or faster per lap for 4 laps or more in a row?

This trail running is going to yield some very interesting data for me. I will keep logs of record 1 lap, 2 laps, 3 laps etc. and see what splits yield best results. So far I only have about 5 days of data but I love it because each trail loop has the same difficulty level so its like a control during a race.

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posted Sep-17-2007 11:47 AM               

I hope this works out for you as well as I think it will. I consider my discovering the benefits of running a high pct of my miles on grass to be one of the keys to staying injury free for well over a year now. And not only is it easier on the system, but as you have discovered, you have to work harder than you would to run a similar time on a harder surface. So you get the benefits of the work without taking the pounding.

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posted Sep-18-2007 05:09 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jim24315:
Interesting because your 5k/10k times are right in line. Usually you'll see a 5k PR that is noticeably superior to the 10k in runners who don't run many miles. It also makes me think you should improve a lot with more miles, which is not what you say your experience has been. I wonder if you didn't try to do too much between harder workouts and races when you tried running more.

Btw, our times are very close (19:11 / 39:36 -- both in past 45 days).

---

Jim, you are right... I lacked endurance. My PRs were were from 15-20 miles per week. This season, my longer mileage training was a first and I learnt a lot - mostly what not to do. I think I'll be in shape for some Fall races then focus on my Spring 2008 races. HM, 8k, 10k then and 5k.

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posted Sep-25-2007 05:44 PM               

Looks like some awesome training going on here

I ran a 5k 2 weeks ago, 21:36. I lowered my time by almost a minute since my last 5k in May. (22:22). I did RTB last weekend and had an easy week last week. So now I am back to training.

I did not have interenet for a few weeks but wanted to check in, catch up, and see how everyone was doing.

Good luck
Becka

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posted Sep-25-2007 06:19 PM               

I ran 5K in 20:29 this past Saturday. 6:34, 6:55, 6:32. The middle mile was very (!) hilly, mostly up, and the final half mile was a long downhill glide. I'm happy with the result. It was 75 and very humid.

What I've finally acknowledging, after five years here in MIssissippi, is that my racing season is November through February. That's when all my PRs get set. I set my 5K PR of 19:32 this past January. I'm a much better cold weather runner than warm weather runner. 40 degrees is ideal. I like training temps in the high 50s, but it takes consistent weeks of that before I'm ready to pop a good one. Today, September 25th, it's 88 and muggy. In such weather, I simply put in easy miles at 9:00 - 9:30 pace and occasionally throw in fast bursts. Six months of the year here--from early May through early October--I'm forced to let all my training paces slack off and forget about sub-7:00 stuff. Dehydration is a problem; a 10-miler in cool temps doesn't require any water during the run, but on a day like today, my pace would slow considerably, beyond even the "normal" heat-induced slowing, if I don't drink at least a pint during the run.

I don't actually mind the heat at all, now that I've realized that I have to let all pace parameters go and just work with what I've got. N. Mississippi is better than Florida and other truly tropic places; it DOES get cold here for four months of the year (Nov through February), but by mid-March it's 70 again a significant part of the time. I've been able to peak in late April/early May a couple of times, but the weather is dicey......

Cheers, all.

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posted Sep-25-2007 08:23 PM               

I know you are a ways from where you want to be, but it has to beat being on the shelf. This is a very respectible starting point and you did it under not the best of conditions.

Good luck in the months to come.

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posted Sep-25-2007 11:48 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by OldXCguy:
Interesting ongoing discussion on pacing a 5K.

MichiganFlyer, you speak of "surges" in your racing. True surges are a competitive tactic meant to weaken a nearby runner or runners. For most of us, surges waste energy.
We should be thinking in terms of a smooth, relatively even pace. Granted, one's first mile is generally a bit faster than the second, especially at 5K and 10K distances, but in general, we should be able to maintain a strong effort on the second mile if we are to reach our potential. I've noticed that I can easily maintain pace on tempo runs, which are only slightly slower, so it is possible.

I suspect that for many of us (certainly me included), the real problem is not pacing as much as it is our fitness level. If one were sufficiently fit, a 6:20 or so first mile would feel comfortable enough that the next couple of miles could be run at similar pace with a reasonable effort. I guess what I'm saying is that if one were capable of 19:30, rather than just 19:59, a sub-20 would come easily. I know that sounds obvious, but I'm starting to believe that is the crux of the issue.

---

OXC:

I'm going to disagree with you. Theoretically, surges are a bad idea; they squander energy.

But in actuality, I've run my best races when I engaged directly with another runner, or two, or three, in the second half of the race.....lost track of what I "should" be doing....and went for broke, with a truly go-for-broke, kick-ass attitude.

In all case, however, I went out quite controlled. I did NOT surge during the first half of the race. I went out with one goal in mind: to deliver myself to the halfway point having hewed quite stringently to the maxim, "The first half is for pacing, the second half is for racing." (Some here may remember a NYC maniac named Bob Glover.)

I did this when I set my PR of 19:32 back in late January, just before tearing up my hamstring. And at the time, I felt--and still feel--as though I'd broken through into a new way of running races, which is to say, really RACING them.

What I did was pace my way briskly but in full control to the halfway point. Then I put on my game-day face, the one with fangs and claws, and began hunting for prey.

I discovered that if I looked up ahead, forgot about my body for the moment, and simply said, "Get 'em," the way one would sic one's dog on a neighbor's out-of-hand dog--if one were truly evil, I mean--I was capable of closing the gap. When my guiding principle became: sow terror and despair in all who linger in my path, I actually became capable of superhuman things.

It's not easy to jump from controlled to reckless like this. I'd always had trouble doing it; in fact, I'd never actually understood what reckless, as in predatory, was on race-day. I THOUGHT I was racing, but I wasn't getting nearly as primal as I was capable of getting.

These thoughts may strike some as the ravings of a madman, but I offer them in the hope that they may inspire some developing racer to try something new. That's why we race, isn't it? To break though into a whole new way of knowing ourselves and extracting our best from the crisis-moment that road racing invariably confronts us with.

Be predatory. Be evil. Be courteous, but get ugly, too. Bare the fangs. And surge sometimes. Surge recklessly--AFTER the halfway point. It's good for the soul, and you may just surprise yourself with the time you end up notching.

[This message has been edited by KudzuRunner (edited Sep-25-2007).]

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posted Sep-26-2007 11:53 AM            

I don't think we disagree at all. I concur with you that the essence of racing is to be going hard in the second half of a
competition. I'm defining a surge as an abupt increase in pace for a short period of time in an effort to drop another runner or runners. Like you, my best times have come when I've been able to lock horns with someone over the last mile or two of a race. Indeed, it is exhilirating to be able to whip through the latter stages of a race with reckless abandon. While the ability to do so may or may not be present on any
given day, in many ways it is the hope of capturing that feeling that keeps me racing, even as I become chronically slow in my old age. And yes, I would probably have to plead guilty to an occasional surge when my competitive instincts overrule my common sense. It is great fun to vanquish a fellow-competitor, but I don't think anyone could argue that it doesn't waste energy to put in a sudden burst of speed.

It looks like there will be no assaults on another sub-20 for me this fall, so I'm glad I ran a 19:50 in the spring. (I know I've mentioned it before, but I like to talk about it.) ;-) Most of my racing this fall will be cross country, where times are slow and most of the emphasis is on competiton. About the only valid time comparisons one can make are with the same
course in previous years. At 55, I'm thrilled anytime I can race faster than I have in the last few years, and I've been able to accomplish that feat twice so far.

At a 5K on Labor Day weekend that was about 40% XC, I ran over a minute faster than I had done for that race in 2004 and 2005 with a 20:25. A couple of weeks ago I ran the nasty Van Cortlandt 5K course, with which I have a love-hate relationship, faster than I had in the last few years.
My 22:08 there was OK, but I really thought I was capable of going a minute faster. This Sunday there is a 10K right in my neighborhood. It's a tough, hilly course, with most of the uphills on the second half. I'm not sure what I'm capable of, but I'll be happy if I can run strongly, as I was injured the last couple of years.

MichiganFlyer, what's up? Haven't heard from you in awhile.
How's everyone else doing? We're getting into the heart of the fall racing season. Let's hear the reports.

Good luck to all! OXCG (Whew, this was a long post!)

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posted Sep-26-2007 12:24 PM            

Since my last attempted sub 20 5K on August 4 (missed by 16 seconds), I switched focus to training for an October 7 half marathon. It is quickly approaching. I'm hoping the training/race will help when I attempt another sub 20 5K next spring. Here is a review of my training since August:

Week, Weekly Miles, Quality Workouts
08/05/2007, 41.90, 12 mile long run, 5X1K @ 4:15 4X200M @ :40, 8 x 100m
08/12/2007, 40.86, 13.19 Progression run, 5 mile tempo run (7:30), 8 x 100m
08/19/2007, 44.14, 14.01 Progression run, 5X1K @ 4:15 4X200M @ :40, 8 x 100m
08/26/2007, 41.03, 14.07 Progression run, 6.03 mile tempo run (7:37), 8 x 100m
09/02/2007, 35.00, 12 mile long run, cut back week
09/09/2007, 42.92, 14.03 Progression run, 8.06 mile tempo run (7:34)
09/16/2007, 40.48, 10K Race (43:39), 8 x 100m

I am very happy with the 10K I raced on 9/16. My previous best 10K was 44:30. Link to race report

Happy running all.

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posted Sep-26-2007 09:50 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by OldXCguy:

MichiganFlyer, what's up? Haven't heard from you in awhile.
How's everyone else doing? We're getting into the heart of the fall racing season. Let's hear the reports.

Good luck to all! OXCG (Whew, this was a long post!)

---

I am still here working through a disapointing training month. Since I got outdoors I find it hard to do the fast stuff outdoors. Tempo runs are despised by me outside. I have done a few interval sessions but not as many as I should.

I have a race on October 7 that I would like to run hard. Initially I was thinking to try to run the 1st mile harder than usual and try for a 6:20. Then try to run mile 2 in around 6:40 for a 2 mile time in 13 or under. So something like splits of 6:20, 6:38, 6:28 would make a sub 20 within my grasp.

Then I hear Kudzus remarks of pacing the 1st half and racing the 2nd half and consider that option...but I realize it is very difficult to get the guts to run hard in half two. I need to decide what my strategy will be before the run Oct. 7 so today I went out and tried to run a 6:20 mile on the streets to see how it would feel (if I would have more left for mile 2).

Anyhow I started out hard, quite hard and hit quarter mile in 1:33, half in 3:07 and finished the mile in 6:13. After completing the mile I realized that this is too hard for me to attempt during a 5k run. I didn't have alot left. So now I am contemplating another mile run on Friday perhaps...try for 6:20-6:25 and note the effort level so I can try to match it race day....I should have a bit more left slowing down by 10 seconds or so.

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posted Sep-27-2007 08:41 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by MichiganFlyer2:

I have a race on October 7 that I would like to run hard. Initially I was thinking to try to run the 1st mile harder than usual and try for a 6:20. Then try to run mile 2 in around 6:40 for a 2 mile time in 13 or under. So something like splits of 6:20, 6:38, 6:28 would make a sub 20 within my grasp.

Then I hear Kudzus remarks of pacing the 1st half and racing the 2nd half and consider that option...but I realize it is very difficult to get the guts to run hard in half two. I need to decide what my strategy will be before the run Oct. 7 so today I went out and tried to run a 6:20 mile on the streets to see how it would feel (if I would have more left for mile 2).

---

Michigan,

I know you can do it on the right course. Is your next race on the streets? Those cross country hilly courses are just too hard. Everyone else is right! The first half is for pacing and the last half is “Go for Broke time”.

The best race I have ever run was a 10K last year. I was running with just my son and I started out a little fast. I ran the first 5K in about 21 minutes and I was loosing steam quickly. A guy caught me with a double stroller at the 4 mile mark and I just gave it everything I had for the last two miles. The guy sat right behind me drafting the whole way(The draft makes a huge difference with a stroller). I didn’t care though I was going for the “time” not the win. He passed me with a quarter mile to go but we had run those last two miles in about 12 minutes. I had done a negative split by more than 1 minute! I also knocked about 2 minutes off of my 10K pr in a single race.

Having the competition right behind me and giving it everything I had over the last quarter of the race is what gave me the PR. I could have run those last two miles slowly and then blown him away at the end but then I wouldn’t have gotten the PR. I will take the PR over the win any day. Well, unless there is money involved then I will take the win!

Good luck on your race. Try to find someone who will just barely break the mark you are looking for. Keep them in your sights and surge very hard with a half mile to a quarter mile to go. I know you have it in you!

------------------
My Profile

[This message has been edited by JasonsDrivingForce (edited Sep-27-2007).]

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posted Sep-27-2007 09:21 AM            

You are correct finding someone to pace with is key. When running alone it is too easy to just mail it in and run to the finish line fat and happy.

I need to get out strong for the 1st half then find a group to run with. If they are 50 feet ahead I will have to bear down and catch them or else I will jog alone till I hit the end of the race.

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posted Sep-27-2007 09:23 PM               

After 1 mile warmup I was thinking about runing a slower controlled mile today.

I started out pretty strong. Running right up to the point where it was still comfortable but quite fast. Well I hit half mile in 3:14 and probably cranked it up in the 2nd half mile though didn't feel like I was really pushing the pace alot and I hit 1 mile in 6:15.

This effort was a bit easier then yesterdays effort so I am feeling much better as maybe I need some of this speedwork to become more efficient.

This was still too fast for an opening mile in a 5k. I think tomorrow I will go out a little slower still and maybe try to run 2 miles in sub 13 if I feel ok after a 6:20ish first mile.

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posted Sep-30-2007 07:30 PM            

I started running in January of this year, to train for a 25K in my area. I printed out their guide, and followed it to the best of my ability. Before that, I didn't do much for running, a mile or two on the treadmill occasionally, and maybe some outside, but nothing note worthy. (FTR - i'm 184, 5'11 1/2", so i could lose some...)

Anyway, I ran that first 25K in 2:05:04, 1:00:03 first half, 1:05:01 second half. After that race I was hooked on the competition. Two weeks later I ran my first 5k, in 21:03.

Again, I didn't have much of a training program over the summer, and ran in a few more 5k's. (I average about 15-18 miles a week, hardly any quality work outs, mainly just go out and run.)

21:35, 20:53, 21:11, and then my friend got my a Traix watch to help.

After I got the watch I ran a 20:53 (6:33, 6:54, 6:50. :35).

I then started a minimal training program for a 10 mile race. (Didn't get above 23 miles in a week.) Came down with a cold before the race, ended up with a 1:12:19. (6:48, 6:57, 7:15, 7:26, 7:13, 7:25, 7:40, 7:11, 7:15, 7:05.)

Two weeks after that, I ran another 5k, achieved a P.R. (6:17, 6:38, 6:51, :46).

Anyway, I want to break the 20 minute 5k, but as you can see, I don't do much for training. Being a little on the heavy side, if I get sore if i go too many miles in a week, and I need the 2 off days in a week to help me not feel like i'm dying.

How close am I? What should I do?

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posted Oct-01-2007 01:07 AM               

quote:

---

Anyway, I want to break the 20 minute 5k, but as you can see, I don't do much for training. Being a little on the heavy side, if I get sore if i go too many miles in a week, and I need the 2 off days in a week to help me not feel like i'm dying.

How close am I? What should I do?

[/B]

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P.R. (6:17, 6:38, 6:51, :46) = 20:32
You are 33 seconds away from breaking 20

You should try to lose some weight and run more. If you are getting sore I suspect that your training pace is too fast. Running more will help with the weight, and of course your endurance. Except for 1 or 2 quality runs per week, run everything else at 2 minutes per mile slower than your current 5k pace and try to build up to at least 40 mpw. It's important that you keep most of your miles at a comfortable pace and do the build up very gradually.

If you can run 20:32 off what little you've been doing over a such a relatively short time, you can probably break 19 within a year if you are willing to put in the work.

[This message has been edited by Jim24315 (edited Oct-01-2007).]

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posted Oct-01-2007 09:13 AM            

Your times are really good though for the short time you have been training and line up pretty well with what I was doing in February and March of this year. I ran a 1:12:22 10-miler in February and a 20:11 5K in March. I ran a 19:46 5K in July and a 19:45 a couple weeks ago in the midst of heavy marathon training.

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