posted Aug-24-2007 09:14 AM               

quote:

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Originally posted by OldXCguy:
MichiganFlyer, I was out on a 10 mile or so run this morning on some relatively solitary trails, so with plenty of time to think, at one point I found myself pondering your training. With your dedication, your significant mileage, and your solid workouts, it's hard to believe you're having such trouble breaking 20. You may have mentioned your age and gender.
If you're a male under 40, you should get there in a short time with the path you've been on. If you are a woman, and/or an older runner, it might be considerably tougher. When I was younger, I could break 20 without much effort, even on tempo runs; now at 55, it's a tremendous struggle.

I would like to offer you a few suggestions for your consideration. First is find yourself a race on a flat, fast course. Trying to go it alone is extremely tough. In a race, when it gets tough in the last mile, having other people around may help to keep you going. I suggest you scout out the course ahead of time. Measure the course with a Garmin, and note a point about a kilometer from the finish.
Convince yourself that if you can get to 4K in less than 16 minutes, you can suck it up and push hard for a little less than four minutes to accomplish your much-desired goal.

I would also suggest some training at your goal pace. One such workout is 10 X 500M in less than two minutes. Start with around 90 second recoveries, and then try shortening the recoveries on subsequent workouts to 75, then 60 seconds. Don't do that workout too often, but once every three weeks or so might help you get accustomed to the pace you need.
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I am a 34 year old male.
Thanks for your suggestions.
I will write them down and may try some of them in the upcoming weeks.
It is nice to know other people are rooting for me to go under 20. It makes me try harder.

A good run for me today.
I got one of my training runs out of the way. I was aiming for 10 miles in under 80 minutes. A little fast but I have only run 20 miles this week and didn't run yesterday so I was feeling much better today.

I started at 7:52 for mile one...then hit the next 3 miles in 7:41, 7:41 and 7:38 respectively. I felt pretty good. Mile 5 was uphill and was a killer. I put in a late surge to hit the halfway mile in 7:58. My 5 mile split was 38:50.

I didn't think I would complete 10 at this point as I was hurting from the uphill section. But at least it was downhill now so I ran mile 6 in 7:46. Mile 7 I ran a 7:45. It was all about just getting below 8:00 every mile now.

Mile 8 ended at my house so I was tempted to quit and thats why I busted a 7:21 mile here. Now I was done with my sub 8 on every mile quest but kept the feet shuffling. I hit the next half mile mark in 4:00 and was like wow I can do this mile in 8 as well. So I ran mile 9 in 7:38...then of course I had to finish the deal. I jogged half mile and ran hard the last half mile for a 7:18 final mile.

Total 10 miles in 76:38.
first half in 38:50, last half in 37:48.
Very good. I felt like it was almost a race.
My body is fitter than my mind thinks it is.

10 Miles in 76:38

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posted Aug-24-2007 09:16 AM            

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posted Aug-24-2007 09:17 AM            

Generally, when it's warm and very humid in the early mornings here in the SE, I run about 8:45 mpm. In hot temps I've been well into the 9:00 pace, even 9:30+, which is slow for most of us hovering around a 20:00 5K.

I also do quite a few very easy miles with my wife...and those are around 10:30 to 11:00 right now in the warmer temps.

My training log is here: http://www.coolrunning.com/cgi-bin/log/display.cgi?u=Docster;s=run4life

Note: My max HR is ~205, and my last marathon I averaged 171. On my easy days I try to stay around 140-145. If I'm not feeling great, or have a nagging pain, I'll go into the low to mid 130's.

Honestly (I know some people despise HRM's)....using a HRM has taught me more about my body in 12 months than I would have learned in probably 4 or 5 years of running. It really keeps me in check on my easy days, and it's great to see my pace drop from 10:15 last August, to 8:30 this August...at the same heart rate.

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posted Aug-24-2007 09:25 AM               

I have no races for at least 2 weeks so I decided a 10 mile tough run would be good for me. But I sure won't be doing any long fast runs like this for a while!

My easy runs almost never are above 8:00 per mile though.
I would say I average about 8:30 outdoors on 80% of my runs.

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posted Aug-24-2007 01:11 PM            

I will not run another 5K until April 2008. I have a 10K scheduled September 16, and a half marathon October 7. I am happy with the 5K's I ran this year: April 20:24, May 21:19, July 20:26, and August 20:15. I think I was in shape to run a 19 something in the August race, but a 6:09 first mile did me in.

Over the last month, I upped my weekly mileage from upper 30's to just over 40. I increased my long run to 14 miles. The first 11 miles between 8:30 and 9:00 minutes per mile, the last three between 7:30 and 8:00 minutes per mile. I plan to increase the long run to 16 miles.

For the other quality weekly workout, I have been alternating a five mile, goal half marathon paced run; and a 5X1K Tinman CV workout.

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posted Aug-24-2007 03:13 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by OldXCguy:
MichiganFlyer, I was out on a 10 mile or so run this morning on some relatively solitary trails, so with plenty of time to think, at one point I found myself pondering your training. With your dedication, your significant mileage, and your solid workouts, it's hard to believe you're having such trouble breaking 20.

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You might have even more trouble with me. I'm a 36 year old male. 5' 9.5'', 160lbs. I've been running 2.5 years and averaged 49 mpw last year and probably more than 55mpw so far this year. My PR is 20:32 set in May. My other PRs are 69:49 for 10 miles and 3:24 for the marathon. (10K and HM PRs are splits from those races.)

My focus has been on the marathon and I'm hoping to finally BQ this fall (3:15), but would like to break 20 for 5K this year as well. I'm doing the Pfitz 70mpw program scaled down a hair. (I'm consistently 60+ mpw, but probably won't hit 70.) I'm considering a 5K two weeks out from the marathon to try and break 20. I'll take a few more cracks the rest of the year with my final chance in 2007 being a New Year's Eve race I ran last year in 21:23 (21:15 watch).

Greg

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posted Aug-24-2007 03:19 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by MichiganFlyer2:
McMillan says I should run my easy runs at 8:03-9:03 per mile pace based on my 20:17 five-k.

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Actually if you look at that again it says that's your long run pace. Your easy runs are 8:03 to 8:33. I've been following McMillians paces pretty well (20:04 5K) and all my easy runs are 7:58 to 8:28 which is a 30 second target and his long runs start at the same number but use a 60 second target. (that's how I noticed yours was off...sorry)

As for the pace, I think at first it was a little awkward moving all my runs up to an 8:00 to 8:30 pace for the first week or two, (I'm usually around 8:10 or 8:15), but it's a pretty comfortable pace now when the heat index isn't 100+. I still try and get a good run in with the heat but it's hard running in that every single day (at lunch anyway) and I don't like that my pace drops that much every single run. So lately if it's too hot I usually just end up running about 35 hill sprints/hard runs (~4.7 miles) up and (jog) down a local bridge because it happens to be half shaded by a building. Much easier. Figure that's one way of getting hill work in living in a flat state.

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posted Aug-27-2007 08:57 PM            

tuesday night at 6:15

Chippewa Middle School track. 2 person 8 x 600m Get partners there

It generally takes 10 days to see the effect of a workout and the Dewitt Trail run is 12 days away. This would be a great work out in your quest to break 20. Hope to see you there!

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posted Aug-28-2007 11:21 AM            

On the subject of easy days, Jack Daniels would rate most of us at a VDOT of 49-50, based on 5K times of 19:56-20:18.
According to his tables, our corresponding easy days should be at around 8:30-8:40 pace. I must confess to generally being a bit faster than than, in the 8:15-8:30 range. This morning it was closer to 8:10 on trails, which would probably be worth 7:50-8:00 on the roads. I'm sure that's too fast for me, but it's fun getting into a groove and cruising along. I guess I'll find out if it was too fast when I do some intervals tomorrow.

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posted Aug-28-2007 11:32 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by OldXCguy:
What a great, lively thread this has been!

On the subject of easy days, Jack Daniels would rate most of us at a VDOT of 49-50, based on 5K times of 19:56-20:18.
According to his tables, our corresponding easy days should be at around 8:30-8:40 pace. I must confess to generally being a bit faster than than, in the 8:15-8:30 range. This morning it was closer to 8:10 on trails, which would probably be worth 7:50-8:00 on the roads. I'm sure that's too fast for me, but it's fun getting into a groove and cruising along. I guess I'll find out if it was too fast when I do some intervals tomorrow.

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I think 8:30 - 8:40 is accurate, however with the summer heat wave we've had in the SE for the past month, I think another 15 to 20 seconds slower doesn't hurt (I'm thinking humid mornings, etd), and in hot (85+ temps) probably 30 to 45 seconds slower.

Plus, for me...I have been running 55 miles on recovery weeks and 65 to 75 mpw otherwise, so running easy becomes much easier for me since for me that mileage is fairly high right now.

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posted Aug-28-2007 02:22 PM            

It was my 1st two day non running streak in probably 6 months. AT first I felt bad but then realized it won't ruin my fitness. In fact I feel pretty good no aches or pains for the 1st time in awhile.

Last night I went out and attempted to go out easy for a 5k paced run. I was going fast but right at my comfy limit. I hit 1/2 mile in 3:21 and 1 mile in 6:42. At the mile mark I said "ok let's see if I can ratchet up the speed for a 6:32 mile"

It was a no go. I ran the 2nd mile in 6:47 and called it a night with 3 total miles. So it looks like going out slow in the 1st mile will yield nice even splits but is probably too slow to break any PR's.

This is good to learn the paces though. I believe I need to put some effort into mile one to run my best 5k now. It looks like slowing on mile 2 is my way of running whether tired or not.

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posted Aug-28-2007 06:37 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by kahkah:
michiganflyer (aka greg) -

tuesday night at 6:15

Chippewa Middle School track. 2 person 8 x 600m Get partners there

It generally takes 10 days to see the effect of a workout and the Dewitt Trail run is 12 days away. This would be a great work out in your quest to break 20. Hope to see you there!

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I seriously have considered attending one of these but haven't quite gotten out there yet. I guess I don't like running in the heat.

I did get out to the Holt middle school track this afternoon and finished 6 X 800 meters with 2:00 rest. My splits were:

3:11
3:12
3:17
3:24
3:34
3:14

It was a killer training session and I really wanted to quit early but am very glad I stuck it out. It was hot so I had to slow it down for some in the middle but thought I would run them in 4:00 so was surprised I was able to not completely tank the workout. 5 miles in all.

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posted Aug-28-2007 09:25 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by MichiganFlyer2:
I seriously have considered attending one of these but haven't quite gotten out there yet. I guess I don't like running in the heat.

I did get out to the Holt middle school track this afternoon and finished 6 X 800 meters with 2:00 rest. My splits were:

3:11
3:12
3:17
3:24
3:34
3:14

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Not many like running in the heat, but that's part of why the track club is there, misery in numbers. It was warm, but fun - there were probably 50 people there tonight.

Good splits overall, you need to work on getting them negative (yea, the heat makes it hard).

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posted Aug-28-2007 09:49 PM               

I'm back to running after a long time off - got injured, got fat, but I'm back, albeit 20 pounds overweight and very, very far from sub-20 fitness. I ran five or six sub-20 5Ks last year, but I'm basically starting over from scratch.

I'm just trying to run lots of miles as slowly as possible - trying to get my weight back down to where it was when I ran all my sub-20s last year - 165 pounds, there abouts. Once the weight is down, I'll try putting some effort into some of these runs.

I'm 181-183 right now (peaked at 192 late spring), so a ways to go before I can think about running in the 19s again, but it's my goal for this fall, so I'm jumping on this thread.

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[This message has been edited by brook trout (edited Aug-28-2007).]

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posted Aug-29-2007 11:35 AM            

I was at the local high school field this morning for a workout.
I did repeats at CV pace (approximately 10K pace) on the grass on a course that I have measured repeatedly, so it's fairly accurate. (I like to do most of my training on grass and trails as I get ready for cross country season.) I ran 2000, 1600, 1200. 800 @ 6:40/mile pace (slightly faster on the last two) with about three minute jog recoveries. Then I went over to the adjacent track and ran 400 in 85, which is pretty fast for me; jogged 400, then did 2 X 200 w/ a 200 jog in 42 and 41 seconds. Covered about nine miles in all, with warmup and cooldown. I would have liked to have gone a bit faster on the first part of the workout, but the longish grass and the heat made it tough. All in all, I was pleased with my effort.

Most of my running is solo. In reading the workouts some of you are doing, it sounds like we could be training together, if not for the geographical challenge. As others have expressed, I often feel like I should be racing faster, considering how hard I train. I guess this thread is the closest we have to a support group for hard-working under-achievers.

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posted Sep-05-2007 08:45 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by kahkah:

Good splits overall, you need to work on getting them negative (yea, the heat makes it hard).

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Last Tuesdays 800 meter splits
3:11, 3:12, 3:17, 3:24, 3:34, 3:14

Yesterday I attempted the 800 meter splits again. This time it was a little cooler at 82 degrees.

I managed to run 5X800 meters with 90 second rest.

3:12, 3:10, 3:18, 3:15, 3:19

Much better this week. It was easier for sure.My times were still too fast on the first two but I never really pushed the pace so I had something left for all of them. I wanted to run one more but with a potential 5k on Sunday I was really hurting by the last interval so I just ran a recovery.

I have only run 28 miles in the last 10 days. I hope I haven't lost any fitness. I do feel quite rested up now.

In regards to the 800 meter intervals yesterday I once again realized that 6:30 miles are not that fast. At first it is very easy. It is the endurance part that every runner must work on.

[This message has been edited by MichiganFlyer (edited Sep-05-2007).]

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posted Sep-05-2007 12:12 PM               

1:33/1:31/1:31/1:31/1:29/1:30
1:31/1:32/1:31/1:32/1:33/1:32

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posted Sep-05-2007 04:12 PM               

“It is the endurance part that every runner must work on.”

Yes! Key workouts leading up to 5k PR run on Monday:

Aug 11 – 12 miles, incl 5 x 1600 x 200 jog at 6:38

Aug 12 – 14 miles at 8:20 pace

Aug 14 – 10 miles, incl 4 x 1000 x 400 at 4:00 (6:26 mile pace), plus 4 x 400 x 200 at :45

Aug 18 – 10 miles, incl 3.06 mile club race in 19:17 (6:18 pace)

Aug 19 – 15 miles at 8:15 pace

Aug 22 – 10 miles with middle 5 at 6:57. The other were about 8:30 avg.

Aug 25 – 12 miles, incl 5 x 1600 x 200 jog at 6:38

Aug 26 – 14 miles at 8:12 pace.

Aug 29 – 10 miles, incl 5 x 1000 x 400 at 3:57 (6:21 mile pace), plus 4 x 200 x 200 at 44

Sep 03 – 5k in 19:11 (6:08, 6:09, 6:15, :39)

On all other days besides those listed above, pace was in 8:20 – 9:00 range. Except for a handful of 200’s, I never went faster than race pace, and usually a lot slower. I’ve been improving for 3 years now while almost never hammering workouts and going easy on my easy days. Consistency with a focus on endurance has been the key.

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posted Sep-07-2007 12:11 AM               

You mentioned in your last post that your feeling rested this week. Charlotte is holding its local festival which includes a certified FAST 5k. Apparently its run along the parade route about a 1/2 hour before the parade. They say thousands of fans (mostly waiting for the parade, but none the less) make for great motivation.

I know the streets well, its a straight out and back. Its pretty darn flat. I plan to register that morning.

My last 5k was in July - 20:20 / I'll post the coming results here on Saturday and add some training details.

Cory

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posted Sep-07-2007 05:51 AM               

quote:

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Originally posted by corland14:
MichiganFlyer -

You mentioned in your last post that your feeling rested this week. Charlotte is holding its local festival which includes a certified FAST 5k. Apparently its run along the parade route about a 1/2 hour before the parade. They say thousands of fans (mostly waiting for the parade, but none the less) make for great motivation.

I know the streets well, its a straight out and back. Its pretty darn flat. I plan to register that morning.

My last 5k was in July - 20:20 / I'll post the coming results here on Saturday and add some training details.

Cory

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Yes I have known about this Frontier Days 5k for a few years and that it is fast and flat. While there may be some faster races in the Lansing area it is probably in the top 10% of fast courses.

I mulled this one over but I think I would rather run the slower DeWitt Trail 5k on Sunday as that is a Playmakers event. I would love to hear if you run this race and how the course was (how running in front of the parade route spectators goes as well).

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posted Sep-07-2007 08:23 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by MichiganFlyer2:
I mulled this one over but I think I would rather run the slower DeWitt Trail 5k on Sunday as that is a Playmakers event. I would love to hear if you run this race and how the course was (how running in front of the parade route spectators goes as well).

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Same here. I'll probably end up doing the Dewitt trail 5k (or Kellie Sebrell Memorial DeWitt Trail 5K). Besides it being for a good cause, the course will be more scenic and now that I'm healthy again, I want to get some series points.

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posted Sep-08-2007 10:26 AM               

quote:

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Originally posted by MichiganFlyer2:
Yes I have known about this Frontier Days 5k for a few years and that it is fast and flat. While there may be some faster races in the Lansing area it is probably in the top 10% of fast courses.

I mulled this one over but I think I would rather run the slower DeWitt Trail 5k on Sunday as that is a Playmakers event. I would love to hear if you run this race and how the course was (how running in front of the parade route spectators goes as well).

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I woke up this morning. I went up and down the stairs a few times getting things around. And I realized that my legs are still dead. I ran a 20 miler earlier in the week. I thought I'd be recovered by today...not so.

I have nothing to report. I didn't run. Maybe next time.

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posted Sep-08-2007 01:02 PM            

Anyway, congrats to everyone who has reached their goal and “keep up the good work” to everyone who is still striving for their goal. On to my next goal! Sub 19:00 with both kids!

Race report:
http://www.coolrunning.com/forums/Forum8/HTML/010521.shtml

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posted Sep-08-2007 01:08 PM            

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Originally posted by JimR:
12x400 for me, with a half lap jog in between.

1:33/1:31/1:31/1:31/1:29/1:30
1:31/1:32/1:31/1:32/1:33/1:32

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Look at that other Jim's workouts. You're shooting for 96-second laps. I very rarely run more than 2-3 seconds per lap faster than 5k pace, the benefit just isn't there for a 5k.

http://www.pfitzinger.com/labreports/mistakes.shtml

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As discussed in common training mistake #1, to improve your VO2 max you need to accumulate time running at, or close to, your current VO2 max. Your aerobic system, however, doesn�t reach VO2 max as soon as you start an interval. It can take up to a minute for your cardiovascular system to work at its maximal capacity. If you run intervals of 400 metres or less, therefore, you will not accumulate much time in the optimal intensity range. The best way to rack up time at VO2 max over the course of a workout is to run intervals of two to six minutes duration.

If you run one km intervals in 3:45, you are maintaining VO2 max for a solid three minutes. In a workout of eight times one km, you would accumulate about 24 minutes at VO2 max pace which provides a strong stimulus to improve your VO2 max.

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posted Sep-08-2007 01:30 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by brook trout:
Hi folks,

I'm back to running after a long time off - got injured, got fat, but I'm back, albeit 20 pounds overweight and very, very far from sub-20 fitness. I ran five or six sub-20 5Ks last year, but I'm basically starting over from scratch.

I'm just trying to run lots of miles as slowly as possible - trying to get my weight back down to where it was when I ran all my sub-20s last year - 165 pounds, there abouts. Once the weight is down, I'll try putting some effort into some of these runs.

I'm 181-183 right now (peaked at 192 late spring), so a ways to go before I can think about running in the 19s again, but it's my goal for this fall, so I'm jumping on this thread.

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Brooktrout,

We will get you back under 20:00 again in no time. I still remember giving it everything I had to try and match some of your times last year. Your story definitely motivated me to get in shape!

There are at least 2 more races this season that you can easily break 20:00 on. The 2nd empire and Autism ribbon run are always fast events. Both are in downtown Raleigh. If you can make it out on Thursday nights the North Carolina Road Runners club does a pretty cool group run. It is totally flat and really fast but we have all paces covered. Some people walk some people run and others just seem to fly along in a low orbit. Check it out here!

http://www.ncroadrunners.org/Series/septemberseries.pdf

Michigan, we are all pulling for you man! I know you can do it! Give that last mile everything you have! Leave nothing out on the course.

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