posted Aug-20-2007 12:14 PM            

But it seems like I have plateaued in my 5k times in the 20:20s range. Even if I pace correctly it appears I am looking at 20:10s for 5k distance.

Maybe I just need to be patient and the high mile weeks will show gains soon.

But I am contemplating adding interval speedwork this week.
I have tried the CV stuff and that was ok but I really want to see if 6X800 at 3:10 will help me get faster.

I believe 400 meter intervals in 1:30-1:32 would be too short an interval to produce what the 800 meter interval would do for me. I also think the 3X1mile at 6:32-6:35 interval is an awful long run that may tax me for a couple days. Plus that is about my current 5k pace.

SO if anyone has any advice for me on what works for them in intervals please tell me what you would do.

Yesterday I ran 6 miles in splits of 7:49, 7:26, 7:27, 7:27, 7:19 and 6:32. So first I realize if you pace correctly (going out slower in mile one) you can really make up some time on the last mile. But I also realize I may not quite have the speed training in me to keep doing 3:14 half miles. Miles are nice and give one endurance but I believe I may need just a touch of speed to create buffers against fatigue.

IP: Logged

posted Aug-20-2007 01:37 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by MichiganFlyer:
SO if anyone has any advice for me on what works for them in intervals please tell me what you would do.

---

More weeks between 40 and 50 miles would help tremendously. You can figure out all sorts of innovative workouts to squeeze seconds here and there, or you can blow right past 20:00. I was plateaued in the 18s for three years and just yesterday broke through by running 17:44.

My solution was to go past the typical 40-50-mile weeks and running 60-70 miles a week over the winter with a lot of long tempos and progressions. There was nothing magical to the process, just eight months of consistent training and a focus on speed endurance.

IP: Logged

posted Aug-20-2007 10:31 PM            

Wish I could be there, but the only way I'll be there is if I'm pushing a double jogging stroller.

IP: Logged

posted Aug-21-2007 01:13 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by kahkah:
Michigan Flyer - Tuesday 6:00pm. Off track 10 x 440 Mt Hope Cemetery . We have a circle on the center ridge similar to the 800 meters circle, but not as much elevation change. This is not perfectly flat either. Get partners there. Park single file in south and west side of cemetery.

Wish I could be there, but the only way I'll be there is if I'm pushing a double jogging stroller.

---

Speedwork in a cemetery?!

IP: Logged

posted Aug-21-2007 01:53 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by RunAsics:
Speedwork in a cemetery?!

---

It sounds funny I guess. This is a track club that sometimes meets at a hilly cemetery to get a good workout with no traffic. I just might have to do this run with the club tonight. If I run at home I find it very difficult to try 10 X 400 meters.

I have run 51 miles all outside in the last 10 days or so since I broke my treadmill. I just cannot seem to get myself to order a new running belt. I think I need to force myself to run outdoors more often and this surely will do it. Last night it was a mile warmup then 3 miles in 8:00, 7:10 and 6:31.

I definately run alot faster outside than my typical 9:00-10:00 per mile treadmill jog.

IP: Logged

posted Aug-21-2007 02:14 PM            

IP: Logged

posted Aug-21-2007 03:15 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by MichiganFlyer2:
I felt good for 1.8 miles. The only problem is I ran the 1st kilometer too fast. My heart rate must have increased in the early going to the point where the same hard effort yielded decreasing times. I now know that the 1st kilometer is the most important part of a race.

---

I'm a run-by-feel person so I've got to find a way to reign in the momentum on that first segment. I've done races without looking at my watch, and races following my watch, so I could rule out the psychological impact of thinking I went too hard. Doesn't matter, in the end the splits tell the tale that I go too fast at first even though it feels easy.

7 mile run on Saturday with an imbedded 5k tempo with splits around 4:30 (4:24 - 4:35). 14 1/2 mile easy long run on Sunday, rest Monday and easy run today. Tomorrow it's to the track, haven't figured out what I'll do there yet tho, maybe 800s.

IP: Logged

posted Aug-21-2007 05:37 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by RunAsics:
Speedwork in a cemetery?!

---

And the training partners are the "residents" in the cemetery. No wonder you can improve a lot and be able to run faster and faster.

------------------
Happy running !

My Profile

IP: Logged

posted Aug-21-2007 09:57 PM            

IP: Logged

posted Aug-22-2007 07:46 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by OldXCguy:
MichiganFlyer, that was a sign when your treadmill broke. Get outside and stay outside. I think you will find, as I do,
that running is a joy outside, not the drudgery it is on the dreadmill.

---

Yesterday I stayed home and tried to run 10X400. I managed 4X400 on a sloping grassy park near my house. my splits were around 1:35. It was hard work but I know this is good for my cardio system.

This morning 4 miles in 34:17 before the sun came up. The miles go by alot faster outside thats for sure. Its sometimes hard to get up so early since running outside is best done in the AM but I love to have at least one run done early in the morning and out of the way.

IP: Logged

posted Aug-22-2007 09:26 AM            

IP: Logged

posted Aug-22-2007 10:19 AM            

You really help bring insight into what it takes to break 20 since you have done so.

My 4 miles this morning I was sore. My splits were something like 9:00, 8:30, 8:50 and 7:50. I think it being 6am had something to do with the slow shuffle. But I did not wonder "how on earth can I break 20 when I run so much of the time at a slow pace?" because I know what works leading up to race day and how to get myself psyched up for race day.

Another thought popped into my head this morning about 5k strategy. I will enter my 7 five-k race mile splits below:

MILE 1 MILE 2 MILE 3

6:47 6:54 6:47
6:21 6:40 6:47
6:40 6:42 6:55
6:33 6:53 6:56
6:24 6:43 6:36
6:34 6:44 6:28
6:29 6:48 6:31

The telling stat is mile 2 for me.
It is almost always in the 6:40s.
And lately it has been about 17-19 seconds slower than mile1

Some training runs I have run this year and mile splits

MILE1 MILE2 MILE3
6:35 6:34 6:39
6:25 6:33 7:00
6:22 6:37 6:47
6:28 6:45 6:41
6:21 6:43 7:24

A few 2nd miles were in the 6:30s but that pace was too hard for me. The one decent race I had all year appears to be the even split effort where I went out in 6:35 opening mile.

SO my thought was I AM RUNNING THE 1ST MILE THE WRONG PACE....THE OTHER MILES ARE FINE! Since I am running mile 2 in the 6:40s I should try to run mile 1 in about 6:40 as that will still be ahed of my typical mile 2 race pace.

Say I run mile 1 in 6:45 even which would leave me with hordes of oxygen for the final 2.1 miles.
I would hope I could then rather easily run mile 2 in 6:40 (since I automatically run my 2nd mile in the 6:40s after running 6:20s in mile one) That would give me a 2 mile time of 13:25. I would think with all the energy left I could hammer the last half mile and finish mile 3 in 6:20 (after all I have run the 1st mile in 6:21 before what is the difference which mile you run the 6:20 mile?) That would give me a 3 mile time of 19:45. A little off of 20 pace probably around 20:21 for 5k.

But if I try this it will give me an idea how much more energy I will have with a 6:40-6:45 opening mile and how it could help me blast the last mile of the race. Then I can lower the 1st mile time to around 6:38 and see what happens.

I hope to try this on Sunday. Aim for 6:40-6:40-6:20. Anyhow just another long rant about pacing. I have always been frightened that if I start out slow I will still lose the 17-19 seconds automatically on mile 2. This may not be the case.

[This message has been edited by MichiganFlyer (edited Aug-22-2007).]

IP: Logged

posted Aug-22-2007 10:26 AM            

IP: Logged

posted Aug-22-2007 11:39 AM               

IP: Logged

posted Aug-22-2007 12:38 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by MichiganFlyer:

I will enter my 7 five-k race mile splits below:

MILE 1 MILE 2 MILE 3
6:47 6:54 6:47
6:21 6:40 6:47
6:40 6:42 6:55
6:33 6:53 6:56
6:24 6:43 6:36
6:34 6:44 6:28
6:29 6:48 6:31

The telling stat is mile 2 for me.
It is almost always in the 6:40s.
And lately it has been about 17-19 seconds slower than mile1

---

I ran a number of smaller 5ks where my 2nd mile was always slower than my 1st or 3rd. Something like, 6:10, 6:20, 6:10.

The problem was that I'd started pacing with runners around me who started ahead of me but had a slower average pace. My the time I realized mile2 was shot.

These days I try to maintain a hard effort and focus on catching and passing runners ahead of me.

IP: Logged

posted Aug-22-2007 12:58 PM            

Seriously, if you can stick with 40-50 mpw (throw a recovery week every 3rd or 4th week in there) and mix in some speedwork, I'm confident you will be there this fall.

I would also vary up your speedwork. I'm currently marathon training, but can offer some thoughts.

800's are great. 3:10 should work fairly well. I usually shoot for a 2 minute recovery. (on a track for me)

I would also consider some tempo runs of about 20 to 25 minutes. 5K pace + 20 ish seconds. (per Tinman I think?) and ditch any sustained speeds over a mile at your 5K pace unless it's an actual race.

If your legs feel good, you can either schedule these for, say, Tues & Friday, or just pick one day a week and alternate. For your 5K goal, though, I would push for 2 speedwork days a week.

On the other days, easy running except for a few extra hills and some fartleks or striders if you feel good perhaps? Just don't fear going easy on a speedwork day if you feel you need to. Or even taking the day off. Don't neglect the easy miles...it's easy to do when focusing so much on speed. The "easy" days seem so slow, but that's the point...so you can go hard on your hard days without getting too beat up.

Your splits of 7:49, 7:26, 7:27, 7:27, 7:19 and 6:32 is quite nice! How did you feel after mile 5? (not 6...but 5?) Did you feel like you could run 3 or 4 more miles at 7:20?

As for me, I haven't raced since I broke 20:00 in late June. I tried to race a 4 miler in early July, but had to pull up and finish with my wife, as my back was a mess at the time.

Last week I finally was able to get more serious speedwork in. I ran 4x1600 with about 2.5 to 3 minute recoveries. Averaged 6:27, which I was pretty happy with. Today I managed a 3.5M tempo run at 6:43 pace. The last half miIe was a bit more uncomfortable than I wanted, but it was already about 76 and humid out. That's my excuse anyway. I *might* run a 5K this weekend as it is the fastest in our area, but I can't decide. I want to validate my previous 5K time, as I think I can go sub 19:40 right now. However, my mini goal race is a 1/2 marathon over Labor Day weekend in Virginia Beach, and then a marathon on 10/7 in the Twin Cities. I guess I'm having a tough time justifying the 5K.

IP: Logged

posted Aug-22-2007 01:38 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Docster:
Hey guys. Keep up the outside miles, Michigan!

Your splits of 7:49, 7:26, 7:27, 7:27, 7:19 and 6:32 is quite nice! How did you feel after mile 5? (not 6...but 5?) Did you feel like you could run 3 or 4 more miles at 7:20?

---

I felt like I could have run 10 miles at 7:30 pace. The consistent splits were really uplifting. I dont have any long runs outside. My longest the past 2 weeks is a 7 miler. Anyhow I felt good after mile 5 and decided to try for a sub7 last mile. The 1st half went by in 3:30 so I knew I had my sub 7 and got frisky the last half mile running a 3:02.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Docster:

As for me, I haven't raced since I broke 20:00 in late June. I tried to race a 4 miler in early July, but had to pull up and finish with my wife, as my back was a mess at the time.

Last week I finally was able to get more serious speedwork in. I ran 4x1600 with about 2.5 to 3 minute recoveries. Averaged 6:27, which I was pretty happy with. Today I managed a 3.5M tempo run at 6:43 pace. The last half miIe was a bit more uncomfortable than I wanted, but it was already about 76 and humid out. That's my excuse anyway. I *might* run a 5K this weekend as it is the fastest in our area, but I can't decide. I want to validate my previous 5K time, as I think I can go sub 19:40 right now. However, my mini goal race is a 1/2 marathon over Labor Day weekend in Virginia Beach, and then a marathon on 10/7 in the Twin Cities. I guess I'm having a tough time justifying the 5K.

---

Wow if you can do 4x1600 in 6:27 you can go sub 20 again for sure. I could only run x 3X1600 in about 6:30 if I wanted to do some hard track work. You didnt take long to break 20 if I remember right. The HS track has been closed for weeks as they have replaced the surface. With HS starting up maybe I will get lots of outside speedwork to add to my outside miles.

I might run a trail 5k on Sept.9 for an actual race.
I have been told its quite hilly so I shouldnt attempt a PR there. My goal would be to shave seconds off those who usually beat me.

I have run 183 miles in the last 31 days. I think I should be awful close to the 2-0.

IP: Logged

posted Aug-22-2007 02:01 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by MichiganFlyer:

I dont have any long runs outside. My longest the past 2 weeks is a 7 miler.

I have run 183 miles in the last 31 days. I think I should be awful close to the 2-0.

---

You really need to do something about the long runs. I think you could really get a lot of benefit from getting your long runs in the 10 to 12 mile range, even if it meant cutting back one or two of your regular weekly runs. I have run 193 miles in the last 31 days, but that includes two long runs of 15.75 and one long run of 17. I almost feel like 5K is barely even a warmup now (even my 7.5 miles this morning felt short). I don't think you need to be up in the 15s and 17s (trust me, I'm only up there for this crazy marathon thing) but having some solid, fast finish type 11s and 12s in the bank really gives you a lot of confidence that you WILL NOT fade in that last mile of the 5K.

IP: Logged

posted Aug-22-2007 03:11 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by joev9:
You really need to do something about the long runs. I think you could really get a lot of benefit from getting your long runs in the 10 to 12 mile range, even if it meant cutting back one or two of your regular weekly runs. I have run 193 miles in the last 31 days, but that includes two long runs of 15.75 and one long run of 17. I almost feel like 5K is barely even a warmup now (even my 7.5 miles this morning felt short). I don't think you need to be up in the 15s and 17s (trust me, I'm only up there for this crazy marathon thing) but having some solid, fast finish type 11s and 12s in the bank really gives you a lot of confidence that you WILL NOT fade in that last mile of the 5K.

---

From late May to late June on Sundays I did 90 minute runs for a total of 4 long runs. The distance was around 10 miles. But all were on the treadmill so very boring. They probably helped as I ran my PR 20:17 on July 7.

I know what you are saying and I am scared of 10 milers because of the time it takes to run them.I did 5 ten milers or longer last Summer (three outside)...my longest was a 12 miler. I remember they started to get tough around 8 miles but I was forced to bring it in for the final miles. Then I ran a 5k after those long runs and only managed a 21:20 so I was kind of put off by all the hard work I had put in for little results (little did I realize I wasn't working that hard last year)...I laugh now cuz I see I was at about 33 mpw last Summer for 3 months and thought I would bust a 19:50 five k.

My problem really I seem to do well in the last half mile of a 5k. I just fade in the middle section.

I am anxious to start speedwork outdoors. I have done a bit on the treadmill but it becomes too easy when you are used to the flat treadmill and pace stays the same. I have a nice base working under me (1653 miles in the last 12 months).

There is just so much I want to try...a 5k starting at 6:35 pace....a 10 mile run at 8:00 pace....some interval speedwork on the track...I need to fit a tempo in there somewhere too 4 miles at 7:00 pace. I hate to make schedules but I just might have to do it. Fall is approaching and its time to put my base mileage to work for me.

IP: Logged

posted Aug-22-2007 03:24 PM            

i know what you mean about looking back at least year though, last July I had weeks of 15, 25, 27, and 25 and thought i was doing great. this year my july was 47, 32, 43, and 44 AND i think that i have a long way to go yet...funny how perspectives can change.

keep at it man, breaking barriers is what makes it all worthwhile!

IP: Logged

posted Aug-22-2007 03:40 PM            

Yes, I was fortunate enough to get past 20 quickly (in a sense, since I was logging 50 to 60 mpw for marathon training for over 6 months)...but it would still be very challenging to do again, and most definitely not a guarantee.

I think you have plenty of good advice to go on...it's just a matter of finding out what works best for you, Michigan. I would pick a goal race in the fall and work towards it, even if it means cutting back on others races until then. Maybe pick a race 3 weeks out, then another 3 weeks from that.

IP: Logged

posted Aug-22-2007 05:06 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Docster:
I was going to ask about the long run as well, but in my rambling I totally forgot to. Go figure.

Yes, I was fortunate enough to get past 20 quickly (in a sense, since I was logging 50 to 60 mpw for marathon training for over 6 months)...but it would still be very challenging to do again, and most definitely not a guarantee.

I think you have plenty of good advice to go on...it's just a matter of finding out what works best for you, Michigan. I would pick a goal race in the fall and work towards it, even if it means cutting back on others races until then. Maybe pick a race 3 weeks out, then another 3 weeks from that.

---

I think long runs and higher mileage help me quite a bit. I am not a talented runner at all. I didn't run much over the winter and got about 8 to 10 extra pounds. When I resumed racing in Apr, I could only do a 21:53 5k, my past 10k in Aug was 43:42 = 21:51x2. It was also a 2 min improvement from May. As a runner with no talent, I am shooting to run 20:30 for my upcoming 5k this Sun and hopefully break 20 before year end.

My weekly mileages since the beginning of July are:
51.9, 42.5, 51.1, 41.3, 44, 34.1, 50, and 50.
When I have a race, I reduce my mileage down to the 40 miles level or so. I also increase my tempo run from 4+2 to 5+3 and hope that I can reach my goal based on the hardwork that I've put in.

------------------
Happy running !

My Profile

IP: Logged

posted Aug-23-2007 02:19 PM            

I would like to offer you a few suggestions for your consideration. First is find yourself a race on a flat, fast course. Trying to go it alone is extremely tough. In a race, when it gets tough in the last mile, having other people around may help to keep you going. I suggest you scout out the course ahead of time. Measure the course with a Garmin, and note a point about a kilometer from the finish.
Convince yourself that if you can get to 4K in less than 16 minutes, you can suck it up and push hard for a little less than four minutes to accomplish your much-desired goal.

I would also suggest some training at your goal pace. One such workout is 10 X 500M in less than two minutes. Start with around 90 second recoveries, and then try shortening the recoveries on subsequent workouts to 75, then 60 seconds. Don't do that workout too often, but once every three weeks or so might help you get accustomed to the pace you need.

I might have had another thought or two on the subject, but that's all I can recall right now. Please keep us posted on your progress.

IP: Logged

posted Aug-24-2007 01:26 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by OldXCguy:

I would also suggest some training at your goal pace. One such workout is 10 X 500M in less than two minutes. Start with around 90 second recoveries, and then try shortening the recoveries on subsequent workouts to 75, then 60 seconds. Don't do that workout too often, but once every three weeks or so might help you get accustomed to the pace you need.

I might have had another thought or two on the subject, but that's all I can recall right now. Please keep us posted on your progress.

---

How long should the rest between each lap be?
I can run 8x1/2 mile all faster than sub-20 5k pace with one lap of jogging in between but I am far away from getting to sub-20. I think unless the rest is short, running short intervals may not help that much.

------------------
Happy running !

My Profile

IP: Logged

posted Aug-24-2007 08:59 AM            

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=2084500&page=1

IP: Logged