posted Aug-13-2007 04:14 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by norrin radd:
Are you doing the Lake Merritt 4th Sunday run again? I'll be gone from the Bay Area so won't be able to join you but good luck. After 13 laps of the lake my top tips are:

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Hi John,

Thanks for the tips. Yes, I am doing this race. It may not be the fastest but it is, first, very affordable, only $5 more of the time; and 2nd, there is one every month. I believe that the more I run the course, the more I know how to control my pace.

The last time I did it was very difficult for me because I don't know how to control my pace without my GPS. Since I am not familiar with the course either, I didn't know how much more I had to go. The narrow & somewhat crowded path along the lake didn't help either.

Now, I have my new Forerunner 205 which is very accurate, I have more confidence on not to start too fast or too slow

Have you settled down in Southern CA yet?

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posted Aug-14-2007 08:23 AM               

quote:

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Originally posted by gcklo:
For my quest to go sub-20 before year end, I have a race on 8/26 and my goal is going to be 20:30 for this race.

I do 5 mile + 3 mile tempo run every Tue, and also usually one interval runs every week. Today, I tried the CV workout that a lot of people recommended. I did 8x1/2 miles, as follows:

Warmup
1st 1/2 mile 3:21, 1:30 rest
2nd 1/2 mile 3:18, 1:30 rest
3rd 1/2 mile 3:19, 1:30 rest
4th 1/2 mile 3:19, 1:30 rest
5th 1/2 mile 3:17, 1:30 rest
6th 1/2 mile 3:18, restroom break
7th 1/2 mile 3:18, 1:30 rest
8th 1/2 mile 3:15

I then also did 4x200m at about 40 sec

Normally, I ran my intervals a bit faster (3:05 to 3:08), but also took longer recover (a jog of 1/4 for about 3 min or so). So, today I am slowing down a bit to make sure I can finish the workout. I think I can easily shorten the rest or increase the pace as I didn't feel tired after these intervals at all.

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GCKLO

Depending on your miles per week, you can progress to 6-7 X 1K of CV reps at 1 min rest (in season). Based on the CV pace you ran your 800s, you should be able to run 20:30 for this race. My CV pace based on 19:45 5K time is 6:35 per mile and you are right there and feeling good doing it.

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posted Aug-14-2007 10:33 AM            

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Originally posted by Jim24315:
Have you tried not tapering so much? I followed a Tinman schedule for my least 10k and it looked like this:

4 days before race...4 x 1K at 10k pace with 2 minute jog...then 4 x 200 at 1 mile race pace miles with 2 minute jog; 9 miles total. Very close to what you did, but with a longer recovery jog. I usually take a minute too, just like you did, but take a longer one when workout is close to a key race.

3 days before race.... 10 miles easy in 2 runs (7 + 3)

2 days before race....6 miles easy

day before race....5 miles easy 24 hours before race

As long as you run nice and easy those last few days your legs should feel fine. Also you will be stronger in the late stages of your race. Personally, I wanted to take it a little easier but took a leap of faith and followed the schedule. The result was my best race in a few years (39:36).

That said, you had a nice race, especially considering the course, but I thought I'd throw this in. Just give it a try in a race you don't care that much about as an experiment. You might be surprised at how strong you feel.

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For the year my average was 33 miles per week.
The last 3 weeks before this race I ran 50, 40, and 32 miles respectively. So while 32 miles seemed like a taper week it really was about an average week of running for me.

I do see what you are saying as Lydiard also advocated keeping mileage up in race weeks (but just don't do any fast work) so it makes sense. I was going to try for a 40 mile week last week but I ran out of time near mid week so I ended up with 32 which is still more than my usual 26 mile taper weeks.

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posted Aug-14-2007 08:33 PM               

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posted Aug-14-2007 10:22 PM               

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posted Aug-15-2007 08:45 AM            

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posted Aug-17-2007 11:28 AM            

For example recent race splits

Race 1
Mile 1 ... 6:24 Mile 2.... 6:43

Race 2
Mile 1 ... 6:29 Mile 2... 6:48

It seems like running the first mile faster yields a faster 2nd mile time as well (which almost gives creedence to the Runners World article that you should start faster in a 5k by 3-6%) In Race one above I slowed on mile 3 but only by 3 seconds so it was my fastest race to date.

19 seconds is a lot of time to lose on mile 2 so I am thinking about going out even slower on mile one and then attempting to hit mile two hard. In a training run earlier this year I pulled a 6:35- 6:34- 6:39 split for a 5k race alone. I felt terrific on mile 2 on that race and am thinking this may be my best option.

I have heard some say it is only 5k so you dont need to negative split. But I am curious that I am not running to my potential since I am trying to go out in 6:28 mile one which is a little above my potential. If I go out in 6:35 I may run negative splits as the extra 7 seconds in mile one which doesnt sound like much could make me a monster for the last 2 miles of the race.

If my hip doesnt hurt so much I may attempt a 5k training run this weekend at 6:33-6:35 opening mile and see what happens.

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posted Aug-17-2007 11:45 AM               

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posted Aug-17-2007 11:57 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by JimR:
Getting the pace right on that opening mile is a challenge for 5k. The problem is, you won't find out if you've hit the pace right until the first marker, and already a good chunk of the race is gone by then. Hit either the first mile or first k too quick and you've got no chance to recover. I think I've only really managed that opener well in maybe 2 races I've done.

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I am attempting to solve this problem by using the Forerunner 205's virtual partner function. I used it for my 10k on Aug 5 and I am right on the 7:00 to 7:04 pace for every mile.

Last time I ran my 5k, it was a fun race and we were not allowed to use watch (1 guy did cheat though). I totally bombed by going out too fast. I would follow my preset pace this time. Unfortunately, I am not one of those people who could run well by feel.

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posted Aug-17-2007 12:17 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by gcklo:
I am attempting to solve this problem by using the Forerunner 205's virtual partner function. I used it for my 10k on Aug 5 and I am right on the 7:00 to 7:04 pace for every mile.

Last time I ran my 5k, it was a fun race and we were not allowed to use watch (1 guy did cheat though). I totally bombed by going out too fast. I would follow my preset pace this time. Unfortunately, I am not one of those people who could run well by feel.

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If you have a 205, just use the field, lap pace, and set the Garmin to automatically record laps as miles if it's not already setup to do so.

By the time you get about 1/10 of a mile into the race, you will have an idea of your pace at that point. By .25 miles, you are definitely set....I use it all the time...and *especially* in that first mile of a 5K.

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posted Aug-17-2007 12:41 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by JimR:
Getting the pace right on that opening mile is a challenge for 5k. The problem is, you won't find out if you've hit the pace right until the first marker, and already a good chunk of the race is gone by then. Hit either the first mile or first k too quick and you've got no chance to recover. I think I've only really managed that opener well in maybe 2 races I've done.

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When I run mile one times between 6:21 and 6:34 they seem to yield similar finishing 5k times for me. A 6:21 pace is racing with surges. A 6:34 pace is running comfortably hard. So I have no issue with mile one. I would prefer not to throw in the surges so I feel better when I hit the mile mark. When I run times of 6:40 I am making an effort to leave something in the tank for later. That way of running does not yield good times for me.

Mile 2....if the 1st two miles are both run hard (6:20s opening mile and 6:30s second mile) I die a slow death on mile 3 and finish very poorly. Otherwise the 2nd mile is run about 17 seconds slower than mile one. So perhaps my strategy should be to go out comfortably hard in mile one and pick up the effort in mile 2.

Perhaps my plan should be to run mile 2 comfortably hard just like mile one. I am afraid that if I throw in surges on mile 2 that I may run mile 2 faster than mile 3.

Mile 3... my times have been dropping nicely on mile 3 all year long. I am not concerned about this mile so much.

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posted Aug-17-2007 03:26 PM            

MichiganFlyer, you speak of "surges" in your racing. True surges are a competitive tactic meant to weaken a nearby runner or runners. For most of us, surges waste energy.
We should be thinking in terms of a smooth, relatively even pace. Granted, one's first mile is generally a bit faster than the second, especially at 5K and 10K distances, but in general, we should be able to maintain a strong effort on the second mile if we are to reach our potential. I've noticed that I can easily maintain pace on tempo runs, which are only slightly slower, so it is possible.

I suspect that for many of us (certainly me included), the real problem is not pacing as much as it is our fitness level. If one were sufficiently fit, a 6:20 or so first mile would feel comfortable enough that the next couple of miles could be run at similar pace with a reasonable effort. I guess what I'm saying is that if one were capable of 19:30, rather than just 19:59, a sub-20 would come easily. I know that sounds obvious, but I'm starting to believe that is the crux of the issue.

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posted Aug-17-2007 04:14 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by MichiganFlyer:
When I run mile one times between 6:21 and 6:34 they seem to yield similar finishing 5k times for me. A 6:21 pace is racing with surges. A 6:34 pace is running comfortably hard. So I have no issue with mile one. I would prefer not to throw in the surges so I feel better when I hit the mile mark. When I run times of 6:40 I am making an effort to leave something in the tank for later. That way of running does not yield good times for me.

Mile 2....if the 1st two miles are both run hard (6:20s opening mile and 6:30s second mile) I die a slow death on mile 3 and finish very poorly. Otherwise the 2nd mile is run about 17 seconds slower than mile one. So perhaps my strategy should be to go out comfortably hard in mile one and pick up the effort in mile 2.

Perhaps my plan should be to run mile 2 comfortably hard just like mile one. I am afraid that if I throw in surges on mile 2 that I may run mile 2 faster than mile 3.

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I think that you're over analyzing this - there are too many variables. It's all hard. If you screw up Mile 1 you have to adjust - faster or slower. You should, however be prepared for an adjustment before that if you can recognize that you are going too fast or too slow.

I'm sure I'll be blasted for saying this but... perhaps you should cut some mileage (OMG) and focus on harder intervals (400s, 800s and 1 miles - maybe ladders) and tempo runs during the 3-4 weeks prior to your goal race? I can constantly run ~19:25 without going over 20 miles per week. I'm now heading over to confessional.

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posted Aug-17-2007 04:25 PM               

Maine: Thanks for the calculator and advice I am hopefully doing a 5k the day after we get back from vaca, but we shall see. If not I will find one in Sept.

Michigan: Good job on the last race !!

Program: No problem. tone is so hard to catch on the computer.

I did a 12 miler last week and a run where I incorportated a fartlek.

this week I want to keep my mileage up but will see about the "workouts" depending on family and time.

Good luck everyone!

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posted Aug-17-2007 05:38 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Docster:
If you have a 205, just use the field, lap pace, and set the Garmin to automatically record laps as miles if it's not already setup to do so.

By the time you get about 1/10 of a mile into the race, you will have an idea of your pace at that point. By .25 miles, you are definitely set....I use it all the time...and *especially* in that first mile of a 5K.

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How is that easier than just letting virtual partner telling me if I am ahead or behind the goal pace?

I find using virtual partner extremely convenient. I just need to take a peak at the watch every 20 to 30 sec. A 205 is so much more accurate than the 201 that this approach works.

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posted Aug-17-2007 06:11 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by gcklo:
How is that easier than just letting virtual partner telling me if I am ahead or behind the goal pace?

I find using virtual partner extremely convenient. I just need to take a peak at the watch every 20 to 30 sec. A 205 is so much more accurate than the 201 that this approach works.

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Does your virtual partner account for terrain? Maybe your 5K's are flat, but there are few around here that are. If your 3rd mile of a 5K has 80 feet of elevation gain, and you are dead even with your virtual partner at mile 2...well then forget it. I go by numbers.

Anyway, it's all good. Was just offering advice. The point we are getting at is to get a hard, but not too hard...first mile in it seems.

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posted Aug-17-2007 06:28 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Docster:
Does your virtual partner account for terrain? Maybe your 5K's are flat, but there are few around here that are. If your 3rd mile of a 5K has 80 feet of elevation gain, and you are dead even with your virtual partner at mile 2...well then forget it. I go by numbers.

Anyway, it's all good. Was just offering advice. The point we are getting at is to get a hard, but not too hard...first mile in it seems.

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You are right. I only choose to run relatively flat 5k/10k in my journey to get to sub-20 in near term and sub-40 in longer term. Most of the races that I enter do not go up or down by more than 30 ft or so.

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posted Aug-17-2007 11:25 PM            

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posted Aug-18-2007 12:44 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by OldXCguy:
Forgot to mention in my last post, I love the virtual partner idea. Have not tried it yet, but it seems like the answer to securing even pacing. Find a relatively flat course, set the VP to say 19:50 or so, and try to keep up. What could be simpler?

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You do need 205 or 305. The 201/301 series are not accurate enough to do that.

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posted Aug-18-2007 03:27 PM            

Tue: 5+3 tempo for a total of 11.75 mile: 5 mile in 36:14; 3 miles in 21:34
{a little slow than my objectives due to a very mild flu/cold I got from spending an afternoon in the water park in the cold northern California summer}
Wed: easy 10 miles
Fri: CV runs: 3+ mile warmup, 6x1k with 1:30 rest, cooldown with 4x200m faster runs
{4:09, 4:08, 4:08, 4:09, 4:11, 4:11} {40s, 40s, 39s, 38s}
Sat: 8 miles easy
Sun: going to be 10 miles easy with some hill repeats

The 6x1k CV runs with 1:30 rest was a lot tougher than my last week's 8x1/2mile with 1:30 rest. I felt very good in the 1st 2k's, but felt tired in the last 2k's. This shows that I may struggle a bit in the 5k on 8/26 in hitting my goal time of 20:30. I need to mentally prepare for enduring the pain. Since the track where I do the CV runs in is a pretty rundown dirt track, I am confident that I could be at least 1 sec faster per lap on other surface.

If not because of not feeling well for the first few days of this week, I think I have a pretty good week of training.

Next week, I am going to keep my Tue tempo but switch to a couple of days of easy runs before the Sun race.

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[This message has been edited by gcklo (edited Aug-18-2007).]

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posted Aug-18-2007 05:04 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by JimR:
Getting the pace right on that opening mile is a challenge for 5k. The problem is, you won't find out if you've hit the pace right until the first marker, and already a good chunk of the race is gone by then. Hit either the first mile or first k too quick and you've got no chance to recover. I think I've only really managed that opener well in maybe 2 races I've done.

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Seriously, the best 5k I've ever raced (my 3rd-fastest) began with a very slow kilometre. I was training for a marathon at the time and the first kilometre on a very cold day was 3:54, but it felt fast. I moved up for the last four and the race went almost perfectly. I wanted to run around 18:30 and ran 18:32.

It's much better to start a little slower in a 5k than to start a little fast. I was in sub-18 shape the day I ran my PB of 18:19, beginning with kilometres of 3:21, 3:30 and 3:30.

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posted Aug-18-2007 06:14 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by OldXCguy:
...if one were capable of 19:30, rather than just 19:59, a sub-20 would come easily. I know that sounds obvious, but I'm starting to believe that is the crux of the issue.

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posted Aug-18-2007 06:37 PM               

Nice week. Keep this up and your sub-20 is guaranteed.

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posted Aug-18-2007 10:33 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by JimR:
Getting the pace right on that opening mile is a challenge for 5k. The problem is, you won't find out if you've hit the pace right until the first marker, and already a good chunk of the race is gone by then. Hit either the first mile or first k too quick and you've got no chance to recover. I think I've only really managed that opener well in maybe 2 races I've done.

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Ding Ding Ding.

I don't know how many times I have to read this to have it register in my brain cells but I think it finally hit home tonight.

I attempted a sub 20 tonight on my suburban loop. I felt very good on my 1.5 mile pre-race run which I ended 15 minutes before my time trial. The temp was about 65 with no wind and a slight rain falling. I had run an average of 40 mpw the last 4 weeks and thought I would have a good run.

My plan was to take the 1st two miles comfortably fast.

I started out nicely at the start. I felt good but had something left for sure. I thought I was a little ahead of sub 20 pace and when I hit 1/2 mile my watch read 3:06! I was like WOW it didn't feel that fast. I had about 8 seconds in the bank ahead of pace already. I thought for a second "Maybe I should slow a little here as I don't want to pay for this later" but I remembered advice that there is no reason to slow on a 5k after all it is only 3.1 miles. So I kept running comfortably fast though I could tell I was slowing just a touch.

I hit 1 mile in 6:21. I still felt pretty good. I had something in the tank and was not struggling yet. Okay I have a real shot I thought I am 6 seconds up on pace! I attempted to keep the comfortably fast pace going for mile 2.

I ran the next 1/2 mile in 3:21 for a 1.5 mile time of 9:42. I was quite surprised that the half mile split was so slow as I felt okay still. Somewhere around 1.8 miles I questioned my will to complete the 5k distance. I still ran hard to 2 miles in 13:04 (3:22 split) but then started to walk thinking I had no chance at sub 20 as I had mentally lost it.

I finished the 5k in 21:01.
Last 2 half mile splits of 3:58 (walked some) and 3:26.

Mile splits
6:21
6:43
7:24
0:33 last tenth

half mile splits
3:06
3:15
3:21
3:22
3:58
3:26

I felt good for 1.8 miles. The only problem is I ran the 1st kilometer too fast. My heart rate must have increased in the early going to the point where the same hard effort yielded decreasing times. I now know that the 1st kilometer is the most important part of a race. Look at the positive splits I ran. This shows how a TOO fast 1st half mile (8 seconds or so TOO fast) will absolutely murder you over the final 4 kilometers. Getting a lead over pace should not be the goal. Unless you have a 1-2 second lead (or unless you are in 19:30 five k shape).

My 6:21 opening mile was equivalent to 19:40 pace....far too fast for me since my PR is 20:17. I learned my lesson and will not run comfotably fast on mile one anymore!

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posted Aug-18-2007 11:48 PM            

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Originally posted by MichiganFlyer2:

My 6:21 opening mile was equivalent to 19:40 pace....far too fast for me since my PR is 20:17. I learned my lesson and will not run comfotably fast on mile one anymore!

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I had similar experience when I ran a race called Time is on your side and we were not allowed to wear a watch. Being watchless, I estimated that my 1st mile was probably in the low 6:20 range, second mile was probably also 6:40 to 6:50, and the last mile, I was crawling. Before the end of the 1st mile, I was even ahead of the female runner who finished in 19:17 or so. Starting too fast in the 1st mile would enervate us and make us not able to finish the last mile decently strong.

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