posted Nov-03-2007 10:08 AM               

I suppose I can't complain too much, since I'm currently only running about 10-15 miles a week with significant cross training on the mountain bike. 21:15 pretty much corresponds with my current MAF training pace.

This will serve as my benchmark for spring. I'm going to try to put in 25-30 miles per week or more over the dark days of winter. Hopefully, I'll be in good shape to run a sub 20 or better by March or April.

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posted Nov-04-2007 08:21 AM            

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posted Nov-04-2007 10:06 AM               

Most of my training has been focused on the mountain bike. Although the bike training obviously helps, I really think upping the running miles will help lower my 5k time- probably only will be able to put in 3 running days a week though, if I want to remain competitive on the bike. Do you think that building up to running 7-8 miles, two days per week, and either a long run of 10-12 miles OR a tempo workout on the third day, is realistic? This would get me to something like 25-27 mpw, while still cross training on the bike three days per week with one day of complete rest. Or would it be better to run more days, possibly doing a shorter morning run and then bike in the evening?

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posted Nov-05-2007 08:25 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by adkblues:
Thanks XCguy. I'm pretty happy with the race, though its still humbling to run 21:00 when I used to be able to easily run under 18 minutes.

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I ran a small 5K race this weekend only two weeks after setting my PR of 18:27. I only barely broke 21:00 with a 20:54. Adding 2:27 onto your 5k time in 2 weeks is definitely humbling! Now the race was extremely windy(There was a hurricane offshore at the time), I had the double stroller with me, the course was anything but the advertised “Flat and Fast”, and I was recovering from a really bad cold.

You win some you loose some but you come back to race again another day. My next goal is to break 40:00 for the 10K with the stroller. I will get that chance on Sunday as long as the weather holds up.

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posted Nov-05-2007 10:23 PM            

Four days of running could work well for you. (Many of us run seven days a week, even some of us oldsters.) You could do one short, easy day; one long day; one medium day, with perhaps a tempo run; and one day of fartlek or intervals.

I know very well what you mean about having goals that now seem challenging, even though they were readily obtainable in the past. For instance, JDF, I'm amazed that you can go
sub-40 for 10K while pushing a stroller.

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posted Nov-05-2007 11:01 PM               

Nice going on the big improvement in your 5k time. If you're like most runners, adding more miles is probably the most important thing you can do to improve.

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posted Nov-06-2007 06:56 AM            

adkblues- Nice job on the PR, sounds like your getting close.

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posted Nov-06-2007 08:37 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Jim24315:
I agree with OldXCguy. The best exercise for running is running. Also, I have a strong bias towards running everday or close to it. It's better to just jog slowly on days you would otherwise take off. Of course you don't run when to do so would further aggravate an injury. I know that it might not seem logical that there's much benefit in just jogging, but my experience is that it's one of the little things that can make a big difference. And if weight is an issue at all, that goes double.

Nice going on the big improvement in your 5k time. If you're like most runners, adding more miles is probably the most important thing you can do to improve.

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I agree there is no substitute for quality miles. However, I do think cross training can improve your speed significantly. Sure, you can do track workouts until you are blue in the face and accomplish the same thing but track time can be hard to come by sometimes.

I was able to take almost 1 minute off my 5k PR this year on less than 10 MPW. The only thing I did differently was I increased my strength by running on a treadmill(5k’s at max treadmill speed uphill),Weight training, and doing the exercise bike. Now I was doing all of those activities at an extremely aggressive level but it really worked.

It was too hot(107 degrees, 100 % humidity, heat index 115) to run outside around here in the summer so the cross training really worked out nicely.

I say to each his own but I wouldn’t discount a good hard cross training exercise either.

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posted Nov-06-2007 09:30 AM               

quote:

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Originally posted by RacingThoughts:
Ran a 10K this past weekend, it didn't go so well. I ran through a lot of pain and ended up with a time of 49:56. According to the McMillan calculator I should have been in the 48:xx range with a 5K PR of 23:17. Oh well, time to get healthy and start building up my mileage over the winter. Might run one more 5K before the year is over.

adkblues- Nice job on the PR, sounds like your getting close.

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Well, you gave it a shot. Note that the McMillan calculator time would be valid if you trained specifically for a 10k. If not, you'll run slower in the 10k than the calculator extrapolates from your 5k time. It's a tough distance.

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posted Nov-06-2007 11:28 AM               

quote:

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Originally posted by JasonsDrivingForce:
I agree there is no substitute for quality miles. However, I do think cross training can improve your speed significantly. Sure, you can do track workouts until you are blue in the face and accomplish the same thing but track time can be hard to come by sometimes.

I was able to take almost 1 minute off my 5k PR this year on less than 10 MPW. The only thing I did differently was I increased my strength by running on a treadmill(5k’s at max treadmill speed uphill),Weight training, and doing the exercise bike. Now I was doing all of those activities at an extremely aggressive level but it really worked.

It was too hot(107 degrees, 100 % humidity, heat index 115) to run outside around here in the summer so the cross training really worked out nicely.

I say to each his own but I wouldn’t discount a good hard cross training exercise either.

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Running on a treadmill, is...well...running on a treadmill. It IS running. So far as the cycling it can keep you fit, but imo does very little to improve running. I've tried it many times, btw, and still would use it to get through an injury and try to maintain some fitness. However, it would be a maintenence tool at best. Not to get into one upsmanship, but I could run in the high 17's, low 18's while in my 40's off very little running and riding my bike. When I only ran while upping the miles considerably I ran in the 16's. Not only did 5k times improve, but longer race times were even better. It's perfectly understandable that many people do not have the time to run many miles but there isn't much doubt about the benefits of running more, at least from a comptetive standpoint.

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posted Nov-06-2007 04:35 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Jim24315:
Running on a treadmill, is...well...running on a treadmill. It IS running. So far as the cycling it can keep you fit, but imo does very little to improve running. I've tried it many times, btw, and still would use it to get through an injury and try to maintain some fitness. However, it would be a maintenence tool at best. Not to get into one upsmanship, but I could run in the high 17's, low 18's while in my 40's off very little running and riding my bike. When I only ran while upping the miles considerably I ran in the 16's. Not only did 5k times improve, but longer race times were even better. It's perfectly understandable that many people do not have the time to run many miles but there isn't much doubt about the benefits of running more, at least from a comptetive standpoint.

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Jim,

I think you were misinterpreting what I said. I still think that there is “No substitute for quality miles”. However, I still think that you can improve “SPEED” very well by cross training. From the little experience I have in running I have seen that the biggest improvement in speed comes with an improvement in strength.

Now when I say speed I don’t mean speed over a 5k. I mean sprint speed or speed over the half or 1 mile. If you have a good base or aerobic activity and you concentrate on building strength then you can see some significant improvements in speed.

That being said improving your sprint speed will only get you about 40 seconds max in a 5k. Where improving your overall aerobic fitness could probably take you down 1-2 minutes.

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posted Nov-06-2007 04:44 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by OldXCguy:

I know very well what you mean about having goals that now seem challenging, even though they were readily obtainable in the past. For instance, JDF, I'm amazed that you can go
sub-40 for 10K while pushing a stroller.

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I haven’t accomplished that yet but I plan on changing that this weekend as long as the winds don’t pick up.

I only managed to run 3.1 miles last week! I was sick and I just couldn’t get out to run. I guess I will find out how my lack of miles will affect me in the distance stuff this weekend. I can gut out a 5k. No way I am getting through a 10K on “will” alone.

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posted Nov-06-2007 09:15 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by JasonsDrivingForce:
Jim,

I think you were misinterpreting what I said. I still think that there is “No substitute for quality miles”. However, I still think that you can improve “SPEED” very well by cross training. From the little experience I have in running I have seen that the biggest improvement in speed comes with an improvement in strength.

Now when I say speed I don’t mean speed over a 5k. I mean sprint speed or speed over the half or 1 mile. If you have a good base or aerobic activity and you concentrate on building strength then you can see some significant improvements in speed.

That being said improving your sprint speed will only get you about 40 seconds max in a 5k. Where improving your overall aerobic fitness could probably take you down 1-2 minutes.

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Ok Travis, I hear what you are saying, but even then I believe that the same thing can be accomplished with hill sprints and other hill workouts. The consensus seems to be that it's a better way for runners to go than weight training or some other from of cross training.

Regarding "“No substitute for quality miles" I would add that that plenty of easy miles is just as important. Not all mileage or even most of it needs to be "quality" to produce good results.

Hey, I'm not trying to pick on you, just expressing some opinions and throwing it out here for discussion.

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posted Nov-07-2007 09:27 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Jim24315:
Ok Travis, I hear what you are saying, but even then I believe that the same thing can be accomplished with hill sprints and other hill workouts. The consensus seems to be that it's a better way for runners to go than weight training or some other from of cross training.

Regarding "“No substitute for quality miles" I would add that that plenty of easy miles is just as important. Not all mileage or even most of it needs to be "quality" to produce good results.

Hey, I'm not trying to pick on you, just expressing some opinions and throwing it out here for discussion.

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Jim,

No offense taken. I respect your opinion and advice very much. I know that easy miles are necessary too I just don’t think they do as much to help your speed which is what I was concentrating on before. They definitely help your endurance.

I was only making my statements for people who just don’t have the time or right conditions to get out and put the miles in. For instance: The summer here in NC hit 107 degrees several times with a heat index of 115. It was impossible to run outside anytime of the day. It was above 80 at 6:00 AM and at 100 even as late as 8:00 PM.

I was training for a 1 mile race and a few 5Ks during July and August and part of September. Since I couldn’t get outside to run I joined a gym. Now I have two young children so my gym time was also limited. I would do 3.1 miles on the treadmill flat out as fast as it would go uphill the whole way. Then I would hammer about 10 minutes on the bike and do a hard core aerobic class in the afternoon. Technically I was only running about 10 miles per week but my strength and endurance were increasing rapidly.

If I had tried to run outside I probably would have only managed about 15-20 miles per week because the heat was just so oppressive. In the end I was able to post a decent time in the mile and I was able to knock almost 50 seconds off of my 5k pr time. There is no way I would have been able to accomplish that if I had swapped the cross-training for 15-20 mpw.

Now that the weather is cooler(A balmy 31 degrees this morning) I have eliminated all but the aerobic class from my cross training. I have totally switched over to doing longer runs outside. And yes my longer distance running is improving more now than in September. However, I am not quite sure that I could achieve the same speed that I did back then.

The big difference is that anything 6 miles and over I know I could do much better now.

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posted Nov-07-2007 02:33 PM               

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Love the coast!!
www.coffeebluff.com
Savannah Georgia

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posted Nov-07-2007 02:46 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Scott3294:
Jason I can relate.
Running this summer here in Savannah was brutal. I would wait as late as 8:30pm and I would still be running in a heat index of 110. We topped out several days in August with a heat index of 130+.
I managed to get a few miles in on the worst days...but as soon as yo you start your heart rate exploded to 85%.
Running in this cooler stuff is a breeze.

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Yea this morning when I was running and it was right around freezing I thought I was going to run out of my shoes. I had forgotten how much easier it was to run when the temps get to about 30-40. I have a rule that I don’t run when the actual temp is above 95. That ruled out all of July and almost all of August around here. You guys had it much worse though!

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posted Nov-08-2007 09:20 AM               

5ish k's of tempo yesterday at a 7:08 pace, first run this season I had to deal with ice. An hour 15 this morning very easy.

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posted Nov-14-2007 11:07 AM            

I am aiming for 26 miles this week then my 1st cut back week next week (Thanksgiving or between 18-20 miles).

Since I have been running mileage in the 20s the past month I cannot slow down. I am often starting out looking for 8:00 mile paced 5ks but usually come in under 7:30 per mile pace.

So my Fall base so far has been weeks of 20,22 and 24 miles with 26 the goal for this week (at 11 miles so far). I have averaged 30.4 mpw for the year (1379 miles).

My lofty goal for 2008 is to run all 5k races in under 20. I would also like to take a crack at a 10k race or two.

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posted Nov-14-2007 12:48 PM            

I have run 1,500 miles this year. Second year in a row I have been over that number.

Goals for 2008:
Optimistic: 19:xx 5K; doable: 20:xx 5K
Optimistic: weigh less than 160 pounds; Doable: weigh less than 165 pounds
Optimistic: cholesterol less than 170; Doable: cholesterol less than 200
Optimistic: PR 5 mile, 10K, and half marathon races; Doable: PR at least one 5 mile, 10K, or half marathon race
Optimistic and doable: Lift weights and work my "core" to strengthen lower back.

_____________

I nominate MichiganFlyer to start the 2008 Sub 20-Minute Goal 5K Thread.

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posted Nov-14-2007 02:35 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by MaineRunner2001:
I strained my lower back. I am on the disabled list for one week, possibly more.

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Boy, I did that last year and it took me out. I was coming off of some weird thigh problem and I couldn't run for like 2 months. I finally started back up just running easy one or two mile runs. I ran four nice and easy and I was pretty damn happy. Didn't want to go inside so I figured I'd cool down by clipping the hedges. clip clip clip clip clip twist clip clip thud. Down goes angrek, face first. Went down two more times before I could get to the garage. It was the funniest damn thing. Must have just looked like someone was throwing a rag doll at the ground. I'd had previous upper and lower disc and vertebrae injuries so it wasn't anything new, just wasn't expecting doing something silly like clipping the hedges...

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posted Nov-14-2007 02:53 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by angrek:
Boy, I did that last year and it took me out. I was coming off of some weird thigh problem and I couldn't run for like 2 months. I finally started back up just running easy one or two mile runs. I ran four nice and easy and I was pretty damn happy. Didn't want to go inside so I figured I'd cool down by clipping the hedges. clip clip clip clip clip twist clip clip thud. Down goes angrek, face first. Went down two more times before I could get to the garage. It was the funniest damn thing. Must have just looked like someone was throwing a rag doll at the ground. I'd had previous upper and lower disc and vertebrae injuries so it wasn't anything new, just wasn't expecting doing something silly like clipping the hedges...

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Sounds like you know my pain. I was trying to get sympathy from people at work. All I got was "you aren't 20 anymore."

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posted Nov-17-2007 01:54 PM               

Today I had pretty even splits:
6:40, 6:44, and 6:40.

My next and last race this year is in two weeks, but it is a bridge run with a 5.5 incline for almost a mile so I doubt that will be able to improve on my time...I just want to survive.

Next race to try to go sub 20 will be on Feb 1.

Scott

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posted Nov-17-2007 08:25 PM               

My first 5k (at the end of september) was 22:22. Two weeks ago I ran 21:15 after a 6:23 opening mile killed all hope of sub 21:00.

I'm trying to resist the urge to enter any more races for at least 6 weeks and keep most of my runs aerobic. I do have a mountain bike race next weekend though. I'm currently only at about 15 mpw, though biking is becoming less accessable with the dark and cold.

There is a race several days before New Years that I may enter- I should be close to 20:00 by then.

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posted Nov-26-2007 02:04 PM            

Saturday night I ran 2 miles in 12:55. I think that is my outdoors record. I know my 5k race record for 2 miles is 13:01.

Good to see I still have some speed in the tank even though I haven't ran a 5k race in about 7 weeks.

My 1st mile was 6:37 and mile two was 6:18.

I will have to run another 5k time trial in the next week to see if I can best my 21:17 effort on November 1st. My goal is 28 miles for this week as I keep adding 10% to my weekly mileage totals with cutback weeks every 4th week or so.

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posted Nov-30-2007 07:58 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by MichiganFlyer:

Last night being the 1st of the month I decided to log a 5k on my neighborhood roads. I went out at what I felt was 10k race pace so that I wouldn't be running this like a race.

My splits were 6:56, 7:00 and 6:47.
A final tenth of 0:35 gave me a 5k time of 21:17.

My muscles are sore today but it seems like I ran it pretty controlled. I was happy about my middle half miles which clocked in very consistently at:

3:29
3:31
3:32
3:31

The 1st half mile was 3:24 and the last 3:16. So as Jasons Driving Force says you can really make up a ton of time in that last quarter mile. I estimate in the last 0.15 mile I made up about 16 seconds from what my average pace was for the 1st 2.9 miles of the run.

Every month I hope to test my 5k speed like this. I don't want to do a whole lot of fast miles just get my miles up again to around 35 by New Years and see if I can increase it to the 50s by Spring.

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I ran a 5k test run tonight in 21:11.
Since it is going to sleet and snow the next 24 hours I ran it a day early for December.

I was hoping for a time of around 20:40. The wind chill was 10 degrees and there was some wind but I felt 21:17 would be pretty easy to beat from last month. I started out strong but controlled and hit 1/4 mile in 1:37. I eased up on the reigns a little and hit 1/2 mile in 3:20. Coming up on the mile mark I was stopped by a do not walk sign (This time there were 6 or 7 cars turning and I had to wait)...it was horrible but I didn't want to die so I waited for 17 seconds (timed it) which was disapointing but I still felt I could beat last months time.

I got to the mile mark in 7:03 feeling quite strong and trying to tell myself not to go too hard to make up the time. I was about 9 seconds behind pace and felt that would be easy to make up. I hit 1.5 miles in 10:28 and 2 miles in 13:55. At this point I realized I was only about 7 seconds behind pace and still felt quite good.

I ran the next half mile mostly uphill in 3:28 then drove hard the last half mile hitting 3 miles in 20:38. Knowing I had to run full tilt to beat last months time I clocked a 33 second downhill tenth to finish in 21:11.

I cannot believe what a short 17 second wait does to your time! I thought it would be easy to catch up since I had started ahead of last months pace but man its hard to catch yourself when you are only 9 seconds behind pace. Note to self that I might need to start out a little faster in races since it is not easy catching someone with a lead.

HALF MILE SPLITS

3:20
3:43 (3:26 IF SUBTRACT 17 SECOND DELAY)
3:24
3:28
3:28
3:15

0:33 LAST TENTH

I guess I am in 20:54 shape.
That would be 23 seconds ahead of last month.
Not bad I guess but I was hoping for a better time of 20:40 or under. I thought I could get to 3 miles in sub 20 anyhow.

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