posted Jun-25-2007 01:33 PM            

I want to send kudos to tinman. The workouts he sent my way have made me very strong. Saturday, June 23 I set a PR in a 5-mile road race. The time was 34:17. Using that 5-mile time, McMillan predicts a 20:41 5K. I am much better at 5K distances then other distances. I think I have a very good chance of a sub 20 minute 5K this summer.

If anyone is interested, I created a blog that contains a race report. Check it out here: http://dhartley86.vox.com/library/post/gardiner-5-mile-road-race---june-23-2007.html

Good running all.

IP: Logged

posted Jun-25-2007 03:49 PM            

Should we start doing a weekly new thread, so we don't have to click through as much? Maybe on Monday evenings, or Sunday evenings?

I ran 20:41 on 6/16, so we're right at the same pace!

Can you send me those tinman workouts if you have them handy? tf(dot)lightfoot(at)insightbb(dot)com

IP: Logged

posted Jun-26-2007 07:30 AM            

Nice to hear your thoughts during a race.
Also you can use your race reports to remember what helped and what hurt for later races.

I ran a 33:08 on the treadmill (with 0% incline) on 12-31-06
On 1-22-07 I ran a 19:14 5k on the treadmill (also 0% incline).

I went to a treadmill website and figured my 0% 5k time was equivalent to a 20:04 5k outdoors.The 5 mile treadmill time was equivalent to about 34:30 outdoors. So I would say you are fit enough to run a sub 20 5k right now if the right circumstances come together.Keep up the good work!

IP: Logged

posted Jun-26-2007 09:06 AM            

quote:

---

tflightfoot wrote
Can you send me those tinman workouts if you have them handy?

---

Hi tflightfoot. The workouts are all in the sub 20 minute 5K thread. Here they are.

On April 21, 2007 I ran a goal 5K in 20:24. Tinman wrote the following:

quote:

---

Mainerunner -
To supplement TChuck's advice, which is good, your 20:24 5k race perforamance yields the following paces: 8:56 to 8:26 (which is Slow to EZ) per mile. If you are tired or the weather is difficult, run slower. It is better to run slower than faster when doing daily mileage.

Your longer runs should be at the above listed pace, but if you finish fast, as TChuck suggests, then use 7:56 to 7:26 per mile; no faster!

CV pace for you is 4:14 per km, by the way.
Tinman Tempo Running Pace (what TChuck has called Slow Tempo Pace - a term I used for years but only recently called it TT pace) is 7:26 per mile, for now.

Don't run faster than your current fitness level! When your race times improve, run a bit faster in training. But, you don't have to if it makes your body rebel. Consistent training is most important of all training principles!

Take care,

Tinman
runfastcoach@gmail.com

---

This is how I implemented the suggestions:

Week, Weekly Miles, Quality Workouts
04/22/2007, 35, 10 mile progression run; 2 X 1K @ 4:15 2X200M@:40
04/29/2007, 35, 10 mile progression run; 3 X 1K @ 4:15 3X200M@:40
05/06/2007, 35, 10 mile progression run; 3 X 1K @ 4:15 3X200M@:40
05/13/2007, 35, 10 mile progression run; 5K Race (21:19)
05/20/2007, 25, 15K Race (1:08:50) / Cutback
05/27/2007, 37, 10 mile progression run; 4 X 1K @ 4:15 4X200M@:40
06/03/2007, 36, 10 mile progression run; 5 X 1K @ 4:15 4X200M@:40
06/10/2007, 36, 10 mile progression run; 5 X 1K @ 4:15 4X200M@:40
06/17/2007, 37, 10 mile progression run; 5M Race (34:17)
___________________

A couple weeks ago, Tinman responded to a post from Michignflyer, and mentioned workouts for peaking. I asked if workouts for peaking in August could be discussed. Tinman was gracious enough to respond with the following:

quote:

---

Maine -
In your attempt to peak in August, considering the training you've done since winter, I recommend that you do a CV workouts for every week. Instead of the Long Progression run, I recommend that you do a tempo-combo workout.

Per week, do the following:

2 miles EZ, 5 miles at Long Tempo (called Tinman Tempo) pace (7:26 per mile, now). Then, run 4 x 30 seconds hill charges at about 2-mile race-pace. Cool down with a 2 mile run, including some 100s at about 1-mile pace. Start with 2 and add 1 per week. Jog 200m between each 100m strider.

So, each 2-weeks might look like this:

2 key workouts

1) CV reps: 5 x 1k at CV pace (currently 4:14 per km), jog 1 minute recovery. Then, run 4 x 200m at 1-mile race pace or 4 x 100m at 800m pace, jogging the same distance for recovery as the faster rep. 2 mile warm up and cool down.

2) Long Tempo. 2 miles EZ, 4-5 miles at Tinman Tempo pace (currently 7:26 per mile). Then, run 4 x 30 seconds hill charges at 2-mile pace (go by feel), jog down slowly between. 2 mile cool down, including 2-6 x 100m at 1-mile pace, jogging 200m between pickups.

The other days, run about 4-5 miles, Slow and relaxed.

1 other time during the week do 8 x 100m at 1-mile pace, jogging 200m between each.
------------------------------------------------
When you are 3 weeks from peaking, run the last rep of the CV workout fast (about 95% effort).

During the week of your peak race, skip the Tempo-Combo workout. Do only 3 x 1k at CV pace, jog 2 minutes (an extra minute) and 3 x 200m at 1-mile pace, jog 400m (instead of jogging 200m for recvovery). Do this 5 days before your race. Two days before your race, run 3 x 200m at 1-mile pace, jog 400m, duirng a 4-5 mile workout.

Don't make the mistake of resting the day before your peak race. It is a common mistake to avoid! If you must take a day off, do it 3 days before your race. I truly think the only real time to rest in the week before a race if it the race is a half-marathon or longer.

Take care,

Tinman
runfastcoach@gmail.com

---

This is how I plan to implement:

Week, Estimated Weekly Miles, Quality Workouts
06/24/2007, 25, Cutback/recover from 06/23/2007 5 mile road race
07/01/2007, 36, tempo-combo, cv workout, 8 x 100m
07/08/2007, 36, tempo-combo, cv workout, 8 x 100m
07/15/2007, 36, tempo-combo, cv workout with last 1K @ 95% effort, 8 x 100m
07/22/2007, 36, tempo-combo, cv workout with last 1K @ 95% effort, 8 x 100m
07/29/2007, 25, Cutback/taper, with following
- 07/30/2007 (5 days before race) 3 x 1k @ 4:14 with 2 minute recovery (not 1 minute) then 3 x 200m @ 44 seconds with 400m recovery (not 200m)
- 08/01/2007 optional off day
- 08/02/2007 (2 days before race) 3 x 200m @ 44 seconds with 400m recovery during 4-5 mile run
- 08/03/2007 do not take off (4-5 EZ miles)
- 08/04/2007 goal 5K road race
___________________

Good luck - 20:41 5K is very good.

[This message has been edited by MaineRunner2001 (edited Jun-26-2007).]

IP: Logged

posted Jun-26-2007 09:13 AM            

McMillan has something called steady state ( 13 to 18 mile
race pace. Is this the same thing?

IP: Logged

posted Jun-26-2007 11:12 AM            

My gun time was 19:54. Watch time of 19:52.

The course had a few good climbs/hills in the first 2 miles, but the 3rd mile flattened out with a slight downhill, which was a nice change of pace for the 5K's around here.

In comparing times to others who ran the last 5K with me, some ran a bit faster, but many ran slower. So I'm confident about the course measurement. It was also mid 80's and humid, so I'm sure that affected some runners quite a bit.

All in all, I'm very happy with it, as I definitely wasn't expecting to crack 20:00 this early on in the summer. I was shooting for middle of August.

However, this is a stepping stone in my bid to BQ this fall, as a sub 20:00 projects out to a BQ time for a marathon. At least I know I have the speed, as I've really been focusing on base mileage and losing weight since last August. (~1900 miles mostly at 70% or lower of max heart rate)

The previous 2 weeks before my fall back week (race week) I ran 127 miles. One tempo run and one interval session. Moderate hills during easy runs as well. Last week was 40 total including the race.

My training log is here: http://www.coolrunning.com/cgi-bin/log/display.cgi?u=Docster;s=run4life

Best of luck folks!

IP: Logged

posted Jun-26-2007 01:25 PM            

First, Docster Congratulations!!!

Second,I’ve been meaning to post for a while now, but I was waiting until I got closer to the 20-minute mark. Here is a little background. I ran track in high school and my freshman year of college (D III), and competed in sprinting events (100 m PR 11.15, 200 M PR 23.00, 400 PR 52.05). After a 12-year layoff I started running again about 1 year ago. This past February I competed in a 5k and posted a 23:32. In April I posted a 22:22. Also in April is when I found Coolrunning, and in particular, the Sub 20 5k thread. So... what did incorporating the coaching (Tinman, Tchuck, et al) that I read on the Sub 20 5k thread do for me in a little under 3 months. Well Sunday morning I posted a 19:53! It was a perfect morning to run fast, cloudy and about 60 degrees at race time. I’m still not comfortable with my pacing for this distance, I went out a little fast, the first mile was 6:05. I felt good so I just tried to hang on. I wasn’t able to get any other splits because they didn’t mark the other miles. The course was 2 loops around a lake with 1 short (150m) steep incline and a corresponding decline, otherwise fairly flat. I tried to keep pace with a runner that I knew could beat 20 minutes. I was right with him until the second time up that incline, where he started to pull away. I picked it up on the downhill and tried to keep my focus on the runners in front of me and not on the burning in my legs. Coming down the home stretch, when I could see the finish, I glanced at my watch and had 20 seconds to get there before 20 min. I kicked as hard as I could and covered the distance in 13. I couldn’t believe it when I crossed the line and I heard the timer say 19:53. Sure enough I looked at my watch, which confirmed it. I finished 13th overall, and 2nd in my age group (30-39).

My training the past 3 months has been fairly consistent. I’ve been getting out for about 1 hour 5-6 days per week. Most days I run EZ, 1 day I will run either a four mile tempo or a 40 minute fartlek 60 seconds on 60 seconds off. On Saturdays 1 run 2 miles to the local track and do 5x 1000m CV intervals (Tinman these are awesome, they get you to run fast without killing yourself) with about 1 ½ min rest. Then I run home. If I am feeling good I will throw in another fartlek or tempo on one of the easy days (this hasn’t happened very much until recently). I live in very hilly area so every run that I do, EZ or otherwise, incorporates several good hills. I mostly run by time and by “feel”, so I don’t know exactly what pace I am running most of the time, just a relative level of exertion on my part. I do have a 4-mile loop marked out and that is where I will do tempo runs. The EZ runs are a combination of off-road trail, and road running. The week leading up to this race I cut down significantly, mostly due to family things (apparently my wife and kid like spending time with me). I didn’t run Sunday 6/17 or Monday 6/18, Tuesday 6/19 was a 30 min fartlek, Wednesday 6/20 was 40 min EZ, Thursday 6/21 was 35 min fartlek, Friday 6/22 was 30 min EZ, and a big ol’ zero on Saturday 6/23 (I really wanted to run, but it was 11 pm before I was able to get out and at that point I thought a good night’s sleep would be more beneficial).

IP: Logged

posted Jun-26-2007 04:33 PM               

------------------
Mark

Vegan 100 Miler

IP: Logged

posted Jun-27-2007 01:48 AM               

I used to define Stamina training as 30k race pace to slightly slower than marathon pace, and then McMillan starts writing about it as if he made it up.

I used to say the ideal distance to test VO2 max was 2500m (in truth, I never told Holdeman that I had calcuated to be 2516.66 meters). That showed up on McMillan's website. There has been many other things, too, which showed up there were either from the emails I sent to Holdeman to help him with some runners he was coaching at the university (in TN) or from posts I've made on letsrun.com from quite a ways back. So, anyone who quotes McMillan better think twice about the source and whether it is original.

You can tell it irks me that my stuff is ripped off. But, the good news is McMillan is always two steps behind me. He has to read my posts to get new information or else go back to quoting Arthur Lydiard - which is fine by me.

In case you are wondering, I never said that all my ideas are completely original. Many are, but the ones that do come from other sources are at these:

A long run each week is very important. It builds endurance like nothing else! That's from Lydiard

A semi-fast distance run once a week is a good idea. That's Lydiard too. He had his runners cover 10 miles at 3/4th effort once a week. That was about 5:30 pace for Snell...about what I would call Tinman Tempo or a Slow Tempo run pace. I ran this once a week under my first coach, but not as far, and he had me add 1 minute a mile to my 1-mile time. I later used statistics and calculus to find a more optimal pace, but the general idea is Lydiard's.

Running slow, longer intervals at an Aerobic pace is from Harry Wilson. Harry coached Steve Ovette to glory for GB, world records, and a gold medal in the Olympic Games. Harry had his runners, like Ovett, run reps on grass in a park about about 10k pace or a little slower. That's not too far away from my CV pace. Harry had his runners go by feel. I use calculus to derive an optimal pace and let the runner adjust it just a bit if need be. Ovett ran those long, aerobic repeats once a week for 15 years. I use the same concept. When I was a young runner, my coach used Slow intervals once a week, sometimes twice a week. They were never fast. Lots of 660 yard repeats at about 70% speed. I was breathing fairly good but it never felt hard. I was never "winded."

Running hill charges is something many of my runners do after base training is over. That's a Lydiard concept, but it is also one that the Brits have done for about a hundred years. I don't have my guys spring or bound up the hill like Lydiard did, but it doesn't mean that hills run at about 2-mile to 1-mile race effort aren't good for improving specific leg strenth. I ran 300 yard hills unde my first coach, for about a month, once a week, and would be about 97% of the way towards my best times, without having done race-pace training.

I prescribe combo workouts. That's a Bowerman idea. He had some runners, during the fall, especially, do a lot of running in a single workout, including distance running, some hills, and some 300s or 110s for quickness. I do that same thing. I learned about it from my first coach: He had us run 2 miles to a hill, do 6 x 300 yards at a good effort, jog 2 miles back to the track, run 6 x 200 at about 1-mile pace, jog 200, and then we'd run 2 miles of easy fartlek.

Anway, I want you to know that I have benefited from many good coaches who have offered their thoughts on training, and I am more than happy to give them credit, where it is due.

Hope you all have a great day!

Tinman

IP: Logged

posted Jun-27-2007 11:52 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by runfastcoach:
The McMillan steady state run mentioned is nothing but a ripoff from what I used to preach. I sent lots of information to his buddy Jonas Holdeman (who I didn't know was McMillan's buddy) and it was quickly convereted into "McMillan's" ideas. What baloney!

---

I'm late to this discussion.

Are you saying you invented steady state runs? Or are you saying you invented how he describes them?

IP: Logged

posted Jun-27-2007 03:10 PM               

I am saying that it bugs me when people quote McMillan about training when the articles he writes (like stamina or VO2 max pace) is information that he has taken from me without proper citation.

The information I discussed was direct information taken from emails in reply to Jonas Holdeman's questions. I did not know they were buddies and that Holdeman would pass all that data on to McMillan. What would have been the ethical thing to do is not only ask for my permission but at least a proper citation of my work. Common decency is all I was asking for!

Regardless, let's move on.

Take care,

Tinman

IP: Logged

posted Jun-27-2007 03:15 PM            

IP: Logged

posted Jun-27-2007 03:20 PM            

Wow you ran a sub 20 at 193 pounds!
I guess the 60 mile weeks helped alot.
Congratulations!

Tinman,

You also have me curious.

Who do you coach?
And what were your best times when you were in your prime?
Why do you care so much for us to break the 20 minute barrier?
I don't mean to be nosy just curious.

IP: Logged

posted Jun-27-2007 09:27 PM               

People come and go, but right now I coach about 6 guys who are right near 31 minutes in the 10k, a few masters (40 to 61) who are at the top of their age groups.

I coached a lad from Texas since late November of 2004. He went from being a 4:51 miler to a state champ in the 5k xcountry (15:15) (Texas 4A champ) to the state champ in the 3200m (9:16) this spring. Watch for him to be an Olympic Trials qualifier in 2012. His name is Drew Bean.

In the past, I coached a couple top-flight runner. I coached Sonia O'Sullivan for 4 months, but then plans changed when she was given Australian citizenship and her man, Nic Bideau made arrrangements for her to run the 5k for the Australian team at the Commonwealth Games. Nic took over her training at that point. But, Sonia was making good progress (after a horrible 2 years prior to my coaching her).

I've coached a guy was 12th in the Olympic Trials marathon. He was just a plain hard worker. THe hardest thing was holding him back and giving him workouts that left him fresh.

Several university teams have used my training. Coaches from the following universities have contacted me and asked for advice: University of Wisconsin- La Crosse, University of IL- Chicago, University of WI - Eau Claire, Washington University, University of Illinois, University of Idaho, University of Nevada - Reno, and North Dakota State University.

Several high school coaches have used my training, too, Two, of the top, have won state titles using it: since they are my friends, I won't say their school names, but they are from Wisconsin and Maryland.

I've been a coach-advisor to several top high school runners. Just one I can say, for sure, since I know her father doesn't mind if I say something: Lauren Saylor of California who was a top 20 runner at Footlocker, before.

Ive' advised some top open coaches on training, too. Nic Bideau, Brad Hudson, a coach whose name is escaping me (I should know it since he's contacted me a few times) from
Scotland, and Knut Kvalheim, from Norway.

About my own running, it was modest. I had a very sub-par collegiate career. Much of that was due to having compartment syndrome in both lower legs. I had surgery on it just before my 20th birthday. I had terrible swelling, still do, and lots of restrictions on how far I could run. I ached every second of every day, taking huge doses of Ibuprofen just to get to sleep. In high school, I ran close to 16 minutes in the 5k (roads) and in the mid to upper 15s in x-country (3 miles, most of the time).

I played basketball in the winters, so had practically no aerobic endurance come spring...which for me takes about 6 months or more to build. I had a best of 1:59.88 in the 800 and 4:32 in the 1600m, although I probably had my fastest time on a 447 yard (yeah, it was long) home track in which I ran the 1788 yards in 4:36 in the distance medley relay, after running the 2 mile. I lost by 1 second to a guy who had run 4:19 for the 1600m.

As a freshman at Southern IL Univeristy, I red-shirted from the team. Coach Bill Cornell told me that I needed to run 4:10 to make the team, and that was too fast for me. I ran all winter on my own - about 50 miles per week, doing tempos over hilly terrain, lots of striders either on the soccer fields or on the track. I never did a single 400m repeat workout or the like, but ran 4:23 in a mile (not 1600m) in an on-campus road-race that was operated by the Student Union. I was second to a guy that ran 4:20 (who was on the university team).

The next few years I ran for a D3 school, was injured almost the whole time. I had surgery as a sophomore and was never the same. I couldn't run more than 40 miles per week and survive the pain in my legs. It greatly hurt my chances of advancing my fitness. I ran a lot of hard interval workouts, whatever was written, faithfully, and it ruined my aerobic endurance. I'd run my fastest times in the first week or two of the season and then get worse. I'd come off a 35-40 mile per week base, run well, then get worse and worse.

In my late 20s, I had run steadily for about 2 years, missing less than 5 days total. I found a routine that worked well for me: Day 1 (Easy)(7:30 per mile), Day 2 (Medium) (7:00 to 6:45 per mile), Day 3 (Semi-Strong, Tempo Running) (6:15 to 6:00 per mile over rolling hills). I was working a lot of hours, on my feet a lot, so I was tired all the time. That fact alone probably cost me 15-30 seconds per mile in my pace. But, I ran 15:13 on the track for 5,000m and 4:01.98 off that training. No speedwork, other than pickup basketball games!

Just after that, I got terrible kidney stones from all the Ibuprofen and Aleve I was consuming just to run daily. It hit me hard and my urologist told me to stop taking the meds. I had to! I stopped competitive running at that point, althought I jumped in some cycling and duathlon races on limited running training.

Must get some dinner!

Take care,

Tinman
runfastcoach@gmail.com

IP: Logged

posted Jun-27-2007 09:27 PM               

I am going on vacation so I won't be able to run tomorrow. I wasn't sure I could run today but around 9pm I decided to go for a couple miles on the treadmill. As soon as I started I knew I could run fast. Very old shoes and 0.20 mile warmup and away I went.

6:18 mile 1
6:14 mile 2 (still felt very easy)
6:04 mile 3

1st 1.5 miles was 9:25
2nd 1.5 miles was 9:11

There aren't many days when I feel this good. I think this equates to a 19:57 five-k outdoors. Although the treadmill is hard to compare to outside times when I break treadmill records I know I am in better shape. And this run was pretty easy.

I am looking at a morning 5k race outdoors on July 7.

IP: Logged

posted Jun-27-2007 09:39 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by runfastcoach:

In my late 20s, I had run steadily for about 2 years, missing less than 5 days total. I found a routine that worked well for me: Day 1 (Easy)(7:30 per mile), Day 2 (Medium) (7:00 to 6:45 per mile), Day 3 (Semi-Strong, Tempo Running) (6:15 to 6:00 per mile over rolling hills). I was working a lot of hours, on my feet a lot, so I was tired all the time. That fact alone probably cost me 15-30 seconds per mile in my pace. But, I ran 15:13 on the track for 5,000m and 4:01.98 off that training.

---

Wow you finally found something that worked for you.
Easy, Medium and Hard...I never thought to try something like that. I often feel tired dragging my body around and wonder if I should take 3 days off then come back very strong. Then again I hear Doc run 127 miles in 2 weeks (including a 19 mile run one morning) and he beats 20 minutes in a 5k. So I wonder what will make me faster.
I know more miles will do it but I am missing something. I wonder if I am too weak to get faster quickly.

I ran a 70 second lap on the track about 5 days ago. My muscles were pounding sore the day after that. I dont lift weights since my hernia surgery last February. I only weigh 143 pounds....maybe I am too skinny? I doubt it. I am getting to the sub 20 but it is agonizingly slow. And if I take a month off or even do a 20 mile week I feel like I will lose alot of my progress. So I continue to rack up miles but its around 35 per week on average thats the most I seem to get up too before feeling sluggish.

IP: Logged

posted Jun-27-2007 10:18 PM            

First off, congrats to Docster on your sub-20! There has been
some good discussion of workouts on this thread and the other, and we've been fortunate enough to have Tinman join in. I can't help thinking that if we lived closer together we could help each other by doing workouts together. As I read people's workouts, they seem very similar to what I've been
doing.

As I noted on the other thread, I broke 20 for the first time in five years a couple of weeks ago. After that, it was back to mediocrity, with an uninspired 20:33 on a warm night a couple of Mondays ago, and a 20:28 on the track last Saturday. That last one was particularly tough, because there was only one other guy in the race (even though it was a fairly big meet), and he ran 16:40, lapping me a couple of times, so I was out there on my own. I wanted to try to hold sub-20 pace for as long as possible. I was OK through 1600 meters in 6:20, but then my laps started to slow, and by around halfway, I knew the sub-20 was gone. It took a lot of focus for me to keep from giving up and jogging in, but I held on and managed to get my second fastest time of the year.
MichiganFlyer, I don't know how you do those hard solo
5K's. More power to you.

I'm going to take a couple of easy weeks before starting base training for fall racing.

Good luck everyone! Keep it going.

IP: Logged

posted Jun-28-2007 09:05 AM            

I understand how stats can be applied to running, but calculus? What were you doing with that tool?

IP: Logged

posted Jun-28-2007 10:44 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by OldXCguy:
Not sure what happened to the sub-20 thread. It seems to have died. Is it full? I guess this is the continuation.

First off, congrats to Docster on your sub-20! There has been
some good discussion of workouts on this thread and the other, and we've been fortunate enough to have Tinman join in. I can't help thinking that if we lived closer together we could help each other by doing workouts together. As I read people's workouts, they seem very similar to what I've been
doing.

As I noted on the other thread, I broke 20 for the first time in five years a couple of weeks ago. After that, it was back to mediocrity, with an uninspired 20:33 on a warm night a couple of Mondays ago, and a 20:28 on the track last Saturday. That last one was particularly tough, because there was only one other guy in the race (even though it was a fairly big meet), and he ran 16:40, lapping me a couple of times, so I was out there on my own. I wanted to try to hold sub-20 pace for as long as possible. I was OK through 1600 meters in 6:20, but then my laps started to slow, and by around halfway, I knew the sub-20 was gone. It took a lot of focus for me to keep from giving up and jogging in, but I held on and managed to get my second fastest time of the year.
MichiganFlyer, I don't know how you do those hard solo
5K's. More power to you.

I'm going to take a couple of easy weeks before starting base training for fall racing.

Good luck everyone! Keep it going.

---

Thanks! (and thanks to everyone else as well!) I agree....I don't know how Michigan does it. My biggest challenge now will be to continue to try to break 20:00. While part of me is too stubborn not to try...I'm still adapting (hopefully) to the discomfort required run that hard. I just have to remind myself that once I'm done I'll feel fine in a few minutes, unlike my marathons where it hurts for several days.

IP: Logged

posted Jun-28-2007 11:48 AM            

As OldXCguy wrote, this seems to be the continuation of the original sub 20 minute thread (which seems to be broken). However, if someone new joins coolrunning, they would not identify the focus of many posters on this thread. I will mention in the first post Docster's gun time 19:54 / watch time 19:52 and SiriusFun's 19:53, not wanting to let those efforts go unnoticed.

Michigan, I am not sure how you feel about your 19:07 treadmill 5K. I think you are looking for a sub 20 in a road race.

There has been good discussion here, and I hope it continues.

Good running all.

[This message has been edited by MaineRunner2001 (edited Jun-28-2007).]

IP: Logged

posted Jun-28-2007 06:51 PM            

IP: Logged

posted Jun-28-2007 09:10 PM            

IP: Logged

posted Jun-29-2007 03:25 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by runfastcoach:
The McMillan steady state run mentioned is nothing but a ripoff from what I used to preach. I sent lots of information to his buddy Jonas Holdeman (who I didn't know was McMillan's buddy) and it was quickly convereted into "McMillan's" ideas. What baloney!

---

Tinman:

You are a decent guy and I believe you preach the correct training principles. You seem to have helped a log of young aspiring athletes and I really really appreciate your effort. However, you've got to stop this personal accusation on others, be it Daniels or Kellogg or Greg McMillan. If nothing else, I know Greg in person very well. He's one of the most honorable men I know of (well, maybe I praised him too much...). We have developed a very special bonding through Arthur Lydiard--Greg was the last person the Old Man was with; he was in the hotel room when Arthur passed away! Ever since, the guy has devoted himself to honor Lydiard (okay, maybe I'm exaggerating a bit here again!). But I believe the last thing Greg would do is to some silly tiny rat's ass thing like "stealing somebody's 'Steady State' training idea". At least, with almost 100% certainty I can say he's not that small.

Greg is one of our advisory board members, along with people like Peter Snell, Dave Martin, Steve Jones, Rod Dixon, Steve Scott...as well as your buddy, Nic Bideau. He's heading elite running group on behalf of Lydiard Foundation and we will be most likely making the official annoucement soon. And we would not appreciate anybody accusing one of our colleagues with some nonesense based on, according to Greg and Jonas Holdeman, "non-truth". If you feel that strongly about it, you should probably make the official legal action and we would be ready to counter as well.

IP: Logged

posted Jun-29-2007 04:42 PM               

Do I think you and Nobby have been duped by McMillan, I'll reserve that to my home. Do I think you deserve more respect than I gave you? Yes, absolutely. I was a hot-head and that have been rash in my expression. Again, I am sorry.

The one thing I know about you is that you care about your runners and you have expressed yourself well in thoughts and deeds. I wish you well and God's blessings in the future.

If it is any consolation, I will not be a problem for you or others in the future. I plan to stop coaching on the national and international level, altogether. Maybe in a couple years I'll coach some high schoolers, but that's too far off to think about now. Regardless, after Christmas, I won't be on the internet and will be out of your hair for good. Hopefully that will ease some of the discomfort I've caused you and anyone else.

Take care and good luck!

Tinman

IP: Logged

posted Jun-29-2007 04:52 PM               

Take care,

Tinman
runfastcoach@gmail.com

IP: Logged