posted Aug-06-2007 10:45 PM               

I appreciated your finding a better abstract. It gave a better list of references than what I used when I started this. My thoughts in writing of a decrease in running economy as it was referenced through the increase in oxygen cost. Increased oxygen translates to higher heart rate for the same speed.

If stride length decreases, and oxygen levels increase, the Pose method can’t make a runner run faster. It will make the run more comfortable through decreased vertical rise, and that seems to be enough for many. However I thought this was a racing forum, and that means running faster to me.

Citing your perspective would be accurate if you want to break running biomechanics down into smaller variable factors.However the criteria of judgment was given with the oxygen cost measurement and definition thereof. I’m trying to stay with the definitions provided by it’s original authors.

In an original exchange, your perspective would be much more accurate. However, if the amount of oxygen necessary to accomplish any given speed was higher with the pose method than the control group, then everything else didn’t matter because the passive measurement of heart rate proves its less efficient.

Jim,

I take your point quite well. And yes, efficiency doesn’t necessarily mean higher speed. But with the same light, being as efficient as possible will guarantee one’s highest speed possible.

A Formula one car is build to run one race in particular, and taken out of that environment would seem highly inefficient. It’s task specific on only one type of road course. The cars may be different, but the race is handicapped to make the vehicles as close to each other as possible.

Humans don’t have that specialty luxury.

The unfortunate reality of humans is that we have participate in the widest variety of races possible. Granted we’re not as fast as sharks in the water, but luckily you won’t get bitten by a shark running in the desert. We’re simply the most versatile of competitors in the widest possible forms of competition.

And with being a generalist in biomechanics, we have a phenomenal amount to gain in understanding how to improve our ability to specific sports.

I look at it this way; even if you don’t want higher speed, then improving your running efficiency will allow you to compete in a longer distance race consuming the same amount of energy of the shorter race.

And since we don’t naturally run with perfect X,Y, and Z axis measurements, my joke is that if I can cut , for instance, your bodyweight impact forces in half through improving your running economy, then I’ve just doubled the life of your shoes…

Efficiency may not improve your speed, that’s specific to the goals of the person becoming more efficient. Even if they aren’t running faster, at least the more efficient runner will be running cheaper than before. So why wouldn’t you want to save money?

And hopper…

Nooooooooo, you miss my point. The facts are the same, the interpretation is different. Since I’ve posted that I can shave half a second off of a runner’s 0-30 meter times, that didn’t impress you… Until you tell me who the perfect person to judge my work is and arrange our meeting, then no results will mean anything to you.

Since I’m not working with “elite” enough runners in your eyes, until you introduce us, I have to use who and what I have to work with.

However in football, the important measurement is a 40 yard race. And in showing how I can teach a football player to run that distance faster, my same facts presented you are viewed differently by people who value them.

[This message has been edited by sport jester (edited Aug-06-2007).]

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posted Aug-07-2007 08:45 AM               

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Originally posted by sport jester:
being as efficient as possible will guarantee one’s highest speed possible.

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no, it doesn't. thus my point.

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Efficiency may not improve your speed, that’s specific to the goals of the person becoming more efficient. Even if they aren’t running faster, at least the more efficient runner will be running cheaper than before. So why wouldn’t you want to save money?

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well, I guess we're no longer talking about speed improvement now.

[This message has been edited by JimR (edited Aug-07-2007).]

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posted Aug-07-2007 09:25 AM               

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The facts are the same, the interpretation is different.

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Since I’ve posted that I can shave half a second off of a runner’s 0-30 meter times, that didn’t impress you…

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Until you tell me who the perfect person to judge my work is and arrange our meeting, then no results will mean anything to you.

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Since I’m not working with “elite” enough runners in your eyes, until you introduce us, I have to use who and what I have to work with.

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However in football, the important measurement is a 40 yard race.

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posted Aug-08-2007 01:25 PM               

Jim,

In reading your words in questioning what efficiency is, I take the view that nothing can’t be improved.

And I also take a different view of efficiency. I see it in whole picture perspective. The dictionary definition I follow, “A measure of effectiveness; specifically, the useful work output divided by the energy input in any system,” gives far more perspective towards improving oneself as an athlete. That’s why I don’t only look at a runner’s top speed only as an indicator of how good a runner they are.

I look at the entire physical system seeking overall and seeking the individual variables which create the complete athlete physically. Improving one simple variable can’t not have a positive impact on the system as a whole.

I’ve lived my life with what I learned as a quote by Confucius, “The future belongs to the efficient.“

For any system to improve to any task, it must become more efficient in at least one component of that system to prove better operation to the entire system as a whole.

If a machine part costs more to buy, is it more expensive, if the new part lasts twice as long as the one being replaced if it isn’t twice as expensive to buy initially? Why wouldn’t you make the choice to buy it?

Running to me is no different. If the end result to more efficient running is costing less money in shoes, then I would think that would be a physical motive to alter your current running biomechanics.

How could you think that by saving money on fewer pairs of shoes, that positive change didn’t occur elsewhere in your running form to do it?

Simply because you don’t know how to run faster for yourself, doesn’t mean it can’t be done. I see that as self fulfilling prophecy and your views of efficiency demonstrate that to me.

I think hopper once said that running faster is easy, just run faster. (am I correct hopper?) How can you do that without changing something? However to run faster you have to get better at least one individual variable to do that. No change in biomechanics, then no change in speed.

To increase your turnover rate, you must improve the efficiency of your leg swing through more efficient stabilization of your hips.

To increase your stride length, you must improve the efficiency of your take off biomechanics or increase the efficiency of each muscle to store more energy for the physical process. Or you can effect the efficiency of transferring that stored energy into forward movement.

If you want to have more energy to run faster or run further, you have to improve the efficiency of how energy is stored and transmitted through your muscle system to propel yourself forward since you can only store a limited amount.

If you want to improve oxygen content to your blood supply, then you have to improve the efficiency of blood flow through your cardiovascular system.

And if you want to run faster, then each of the above variables separate and judged together, overlay the system by which your body moves.

You can’t tell me that you couldn’t get better in any separate component. I’ve lived by the idea that every runner has it in them in ability to run and race 20% faster minimum.

Do you look into the mirror and think that you’ll never run faster? Or is it that because you don’t have the knowledge to improve and run faster is possible and therefore you’re egotistical enough to think that nobody else can either.

And hopper,

What you think hasn’t happened, has. I’ve posted plenty of quotes from runners and I’m accused of “poisoning” their minds. It’s their response to learning from me directly. Just because you too believe that running faster for yourself is impossible, doesnt' mean you've learned everything there is to know about running.

If I posted a link to my students accomplishments, then like before, if they’re not setting world records, then I haven’t taught them anything has been your expressed opinion. Since he isn’t an elite, then introduce me to any elite runner, and I’ll more than willingly share with them how I teach running biomechanics.

I’ve posted that I’ve taken half a second off of Silas' 0-30 meter times and taken three seconds off of his last season PR for the 400 meters. On the treadmill when I first met him, I posted that he couldn’t run 10 MPH, and in a few hours he was outrunning the 12 MPH top speed.

That individual accomplishment for some reason seems to be for yourself too complex to understand how I did it. And since you yourself can't do that for anyone, you don't think I can either. And since you don't know everything there is to know about running, seems to be difficult to comprehend.

The context in relation to other athletes is what you’re demanding to “prove” he hasn’t improved at all. The above facts are true. The best part is that he’s only achieved 1/3 of peak biomechanic efficiency. The above results are what’s important to me and others as an individual, not within the context of his racing.

One of the reasons I chose the football team, was to put my work into a more public arena for judgment. With that I’m also working towards more media exposure as well.

Because running with my technique has shown to prevent injuries, there are people who view that fact alone as a reason to integrate my work onto the football field. Sure football is about winning games, but its done one yard at a time.

And for every yard requires a step. I just want to teach them to take the longest step possible.

I think it's going to be a lot of fun to be honest...

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posted Aug-15-2007 10:42 AM               

------------------
Greg
My User Profile

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posted Aug-15-2007 01:17 PM               

I apologize

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posted Aug-16-2007 10:55 AM               

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What you think hasn’t happened, has. I’ve posted plenty of quotes from runners and I’m accused of “poisoning” their minds.

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Just because you too believe that running faster for yourself is impossible, doesnt' mean you've learned everything there is to know about running.

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If I posted a link to my students accomplishments, then like before, if they’re not setting world records, then I haven’t taught them anything has been your expressed opinion.

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I’ve posted that I’ve taken half a second off of Silas' 0-30 meter times and taken three seconds off of his last season PR for the 400 meters. On the treadmill when I first met him, I posted that he couldn’t run 10 MPH, and in a few hours he was outrunning the 12 MPH top speed.

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That individual accomplishment for some reason seems to be for yourself too complex to understand how I did it.

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And since you yourself can't do that for anyone, you don't think I can either. And since you don't know everything there is to know about running, seems to be difficult to comprehend.

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Because running with my technique has shown to prevent injuries, there are people who view that fact alone as a reason to integrate my work onto the football field.

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I think it's going to be a lot of fun to be honest...

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posted Aug-18-2007 11:39 PM               

Since you claim I haven’t done any research, you must think I live in the middle of the Arizona desert, rather than in Portland Oregon, home to Nike's world campus.

I’ve spent uncountable hours reading biomechanic and kinesiology textbooks from multiple colleges, including an invitation to document my peak walking speed at the University of Oregon. I’ve also been to John Hopkins Medical School in Baltimore for research in their medical museum library. And with having a medical textbook collection of my own that starts in 1830,

Even both my parents are doctors, so your assumption couldn’t be further from the truth.

I would think that you could assume that working at a major hotel, I’ve discussed my work with multiple medical people from physicians, surgeons, orthopedic specialists, physical therapists, and rehabilitation specialists who attended medical conferences at the facility, or were visiting our city. They were not only people to teach, but gave me an incredible source of information to validate my work.

My students include a number of physicians, who wouldn’t follow my teaching if my logic didn’t’ make sense to them. Oh, and the other side of the story is that the hotel would have fired me if the management didn’t get compliments from guests to their appreciation of my knowledge.

And being referred to as a “genius” by a college track coach isn’t exactly a slam considering he teaches for USATF coaching certification. Unlike yourself, he has watched me run and interrogated me for why I walk or run the way I do.

Not to mention working at a sports medicine clinic… I would think that a facility staffed by multiple medical specialties, wouldn’t be having me work with them if I didn’t know what I was talking about.

As to the Kenyan women I watched, as stated, I was at the time working to develop a better way to skate. With that, the women were of interest to me because they also solved the problem I faced with skating, keeping the torso completely motionless in relation to the movement of the legs.

What they proved to me that complete stillness and elimination of linear rise and counterbalance arm swing was physically possible. Watching them walk next to others on the street was an incredible contrast in walking efficiency.

I took note to watch their footfall placement because of the no arm swing which was necessary to create my skating technique as I did.

It wasn’t until I got into studying cats that the connection was made evident that they walk with no linear rise as well. And to do so they walk with a very close based overlap of the feet without pushing their bodies up to take each step.

The race walking reference I posted was that it’s the going theory that runners should have a turnover rate of 180 steps per minute. While race walking isn’t as efficient as running, for the same speed, they have an incredibly high turnover rate.

That’s in contrast of the feline species which even as the world’s fastest running animal, they have a very slow turnover rate as they run.

If your goal is to improve your turnover rate and increase your speed, race walkers are a really good model to follow. Their linear footfall is very close to how the women of Kenya walk carrying their weight overhead.

I watched them in relation to others walking around them. as they walked by. Their walking efficiency was quite obvious. And their footfall patterns are much closer to walking on centerline than a traditional parallel leg swing.

With the football team, that’s what I thought would be the connection I thought you’d see easiest.

The connection of sports injuries to speed is really quite easy. With running, the most common injuries to the knee, are called “overuse” injuries. “Runner’s Knee is very common and knee problems is the top reason people take up the sport of cycling, according to the editor of a cycling magazine I spoke with.

I think that “overuse” is a wrong classification. I call them misuse injuries. They aren’t injuries of immediate impact, but long term joint friction that eventually destroys the joints. It’s the inefficiency of the joint I focused on.

And to improve a player, teaching them how to protect their knees is a wonderful adaptation of my work. As patella femoral pain is the most common running complaint, they go hand in hand with performance improvement.

So in looking to prevent such realities, the formula is quite simple. By correcting leg biomechanics to decrease the friction of inefficient use, the joint works easier. And by working with less friction results in higher speed of the joint, and thus higher speed of the athlete…

And to your speed of Silas, he’s not an elite athlete by any means, but the speed you cite is through the biomechanic use of cleats (If it’s the same Silas, since I never posted a last name) on a track, which is why they use them. If 15 MPH were easy to attain naturally, there would be a lot more 15+ MPH treadmills on the market to train on wouldn’t there???

Cleats don’t work on treadmills, and treadmill runners don’t easily reach 12 MPH or the market of equipment would supply them.

In fact I don’t even train or test my athletes without shoes at all. Every treadmill student I teach, I teach barefoot. So their abilities are as natural to their biomechanics as possible. That was one fact that intrigued the Nike lab people.

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posted Aug-20-2007 09:45 AM               

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Since you claim I haven’t done any research, you must think I live in the middle of the Arizona desert, rather than in Portland Oregon, home to Nike's world campus.

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I’ve spent uncountable hours reading biomechanic and kinesiology textbooks from multiple colleges, including an invitation to document my peak walking speed at the University of Oregon. I’ve also been to John Hopkins Medical School in Baltimore for research in their medical museum library. And with having a medical textbook collection of my own that starts in 1830,

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Even both my parents are doctors, so your assumption couldn’t be further from the truth.

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I would think that you could assume that working at a major hotel, I’ve discussed my work with multiple medical people from physicians, surgeons, orthopedic specialists, physical therapists, and rehabilitation specialists who attended medical conferences at the facility, or were visiting our city. They were not only people to teach, but gave me an incredible source of information to validate my work.

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My students include a number of physicians, who wouldn’t follow my teaching if my logic didn’t’ make sense to them. Oh, and the other side of the story is that the hotel would have fired me if the management didn’t get compliments from guests to their appreciation of my knowledge.

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And being referred to as a “genius” by a college track coach isn’t exactly a slam considering he teaches for USATF coaching certification. Unlike yourself, he has watched me run and interrogated me for why I walk or run the way I do.

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Not to mention working at a sports medicine clinic… I would think that a facility staffed by multiple medical specialties, wouldn’t be having me work with them if I didn’t know what I was talking about.

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As to the Kenyan women I watched, as stated, I was at the time working to develop a better way to skate. With that, the women were of interest to me because they also solved the problem I faced with skating, keeping the torso completely motionless in relation to the movement of the legs.

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As I stated, I was interested in the tribal women to figure out their efficiencies for surgical rehab, and had no interest initially with running.

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It wasn’t until I got into studying cats that the connection was made evident that they walk with no linear rise as well. And to do so they walk with a very close based overlap of the feet without pushing their bodies up to take each step.

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The race walking reference I posted was that it’s the going theory that runners should have a turnover rate of 180 steps per minute. While race walking isn’t as efficient as running, for the same speed, they have an incredibly high turnover rate.

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That’s in contrast of the feline species which even as the world’s fastest running animal, they have a very slow turnover rate as they run.

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If your goal is to improve your turnover rate and increase your speed, race walkers are a really good model to follow. Their linear footfall is very close to how the women of Kenya walk carrying their weight overhead.

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Race walkers have absolutely nothing to do with natural walking or running biomechanics of humans, so the race walking connection you're claiming doesn't exist.

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With the football team, that’s what I thought would be the connection I thought you’d see easiest.

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The connection of sports injuries to speed is really quite easy. With running, the most common injuries to the knee, are called “overuse” injuries. “Runner’s Knee is very common and knee problems is the top reason people take up the sport of cycling, according to the editor of a cycling magazine I spoke with.
I think that “overuse” is a wrong classification. I call them misuse injuries. They aren’t injuries of immediate impact, but long term joint friction that eventually destroys the joints. It’s the inefficiency of the joint I focused on.

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And to improve a player, teaching them how to protect their knees is a wonderful adaptation of my work. As patella femoral pain is the most common running complaint, they go hand in hand with performance improvement.

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So in looking to prevent such realities, the formula is quite simple. By correcting leg biomechanics to decrease the friction of inefficient use, the joint works easier. And by working with less friction results in higher speed of the joint, and thus higher speed of the athlete…

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And to your speed of Silas, he’s not an elite athlete by any means, but the speed you cite is through the biomechanic use of cleats (If it’s the same Silas, since I never posted a last name) on a track, which is why they use them. If 15 MPH were easy to attain naturally, there would be a lot more 15+ MPH treadmills on the market to train on wouldn’t there???

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Cleats don’t work on treadmills,

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and treadmill runners don’t easily reach 12 MPH or the market of equipment would supply them.

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In fact I don’t even train or test my athletes without shoes at all. Every treadmill student I teach, I teach barefoot. So their abilities are as natural to their biomechanics as possible. That was one fact that intrigued the Nike lab people.

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[This message has been edited by hopper3011 (edited Aug-20-2007).]

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posted Aug-20-2007 04:40 PM            

Sport jester has no real educational background,......but he does work at a Holiday Inn Express.

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posted Aug-21-2007 08:29 AM               

Information in a book is like genetic potential in an aspiring runner. Anyone can have it, but it takes training to bring it out and run fast times. You can't say "hey, my Dad was a fast runner so I have good genes. I think I'll go qualify for the Olympics tomorrow". Yet lacking education and experience, people somehow think they can read something in a book and are immediately experts on it.

Anyone can read books. It takes appropriate education and experience to understand and apply that knowledge to its potential.

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posted Aug-24-2007 02:55 AM               

Obviously you didn’t pay attention… I don’t care a lick about photos…. Watch a video…

So lets take your assumption that decreasing friction doesn’t improve performance….

Then the opposite must also be true that increasing friction doesn’t decrease performance either. So why don’t you go out and drain your car engine of all its oil. Hey, since all that gunk does is decrease the friction of your engine parts, it must be unnecessary to use by your assertion….

But please make sure you have towing on your insurance….

Then make a call to any automobile designers and tell them that they’re wasting time on decreasing atmospheric friction (aerodynamics) because you won’t get any better gas mileage for doing so….

Decreasing joint friction isn’t an improvement only if the athlete truly doesn’t’ want to improve, which is a better definition of your perspective…

And yea, I’m not mentioned in any Cascade College stories… So better yet, why don’t you ask the coach yourself. Considering that someone was teaching one of his runners, he never once showed up to watch how I trained Silas despite my invitation.

If I were a coach, anyone having contact with my students would be a prime concern don’t you think? And why would a coach want to have the story told that someone else can teach his runners more than he can.

And yes Nike runners are running barefoot, that’s why they created the FREE shoe in the first place, to allow a barefoot running experience without having to step in dog excrement to do it…

So Andy,

What defines an education? Being told how to think by some worthless drunk? The book doesn’t’ change if you read the book on your own or sitting in a class having someone reading it to you…

Especially when you can ask professors questions that they can’t answer. What good is an education when no answers can be found in print anywhere.. I can’t see any logic in paying someone for an “education” when they can’t answer any legitimate questions of their specialties…

Since when does an education require anything but a book? It seems you think that sitting in a classroom and paying people to write your papers for you better proof of “educated”

I’m not claiming anything genetic, I’m merely stating that I’ve been surrounded by medical textbooks my whole life. And with that history was chosen in competition against some of the biggest names in Advertising including Wieden and Kennedy, to be the marketing director of a Portland Hospital for five years. A staff of 250 people couldn’t’ beat a company with a staff of only two….

For me, an education is for those too lazy to read a book for themselves.

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posted Aug-24-2007 09:58 AM               

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Obviously you didn’t pay attention… I don’t care a lick about photos…. Watch a video…

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So lets take your assumption that decreasing friction doesn’t improve performance….

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Then the opposite must also be true that increasing friction doesn’t decrease performance either.

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Then make a call to any automobile designers and tell them that they’re wasting time on decreasing atmospheric friction (aerodynamics) because you won’t get any better gas mileage for doing so….

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Decreasing joint friction isn’t an improvement only if the athlete truly doesn’t’ want to improve, which is a better definition of your perspective…

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And yes Nike runners are running barefoot, that’s why they created the FREE shoe in the first place, to allow a barefoot running experience without having to step in dog excrement to do it…

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And with that history was chosen in competition against some of the biggest names in Advertising including Wieden and Kennedy, to be the marketing director of a Portland Hospital for five years. A staff of 250 people couldn’t’ beat a company with a staff of only two….

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posted Oct-15-2007 11:43 PM               

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