posted Jun-15-2007 02:52 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by TedAndresen:
Sport Jester,

Can you cite any scientific peer-reviewed research in any journals or a scientific publications to back up your assertions?

Ted

---

Of course he can't. But he can produce a raving testimonial from a 14 year old boy who's sure that he will run faster someday, but who's calves hurt now. What more do you need?

IP: Logged

posted Jun-16-2007 03:59 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by sport jester:

Superburtm,

What you’re experiencing is a slight case of over striding. The tendons of the quads go through the kneecap and with landing impact forces your knee is getting pulled out of alignment.[/B]

---

IP: Logged

posted Jun-16-2007 12:43 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by TedAndresen:
Yes, yes, yes. I totally agree. That is the response I got from the POSE Institute when I queried them on a similar issue. Thank you for bring that point to the forefront.

Ted

---

I think you are making it up as you go along. I do not believe it is true that you got any such response from the POSE Institute. Michael Johnson is cited as a perfect pose runner and Dr. Romanov has claimed to work with many elite runners.

IP: Logged

posted Jun-16-2007 01:14 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by MichiganFlyer:
I was never under the impression that Pose made you a racer. From reading material on Pose it seems that it is an easier way to run. Gravity does the work and makes you fall forward but it doesn't make you faster. It seems to be a lazy way to run. If you are an occasional runner you may like to try out this form of running but I don't think many elites run this way if any.

---

Try this link
http://www.posetech.com/pose_method/aboutdr.html

Dr. Romanov has worked with the members of National Teams from 4 countries: United States, Great Britain, Russia and Mexico, taking the British Triathlon National Team to 2000 Olympics in Sydney and 2004 Olympics in Athens. He also served as a member of the USA Triathlon Coaching Committee from 1996 to 2002.

IP: Logged

posted Jun-16-2007 10:30 PM               

Hey Laker,

Nothing like exuding the warmth of road kill in an ice storm….

So please tell me what Niketown you’ve ever coached at????

Since my technique is a more efficient use of the calf muscle, as well as other muscles more efficiently, Josh wasn’t used to the range of motion required of the ankle. At least he didn’t die of a Ben Gay overdose as with your technique coaches…

When I presented my ideas with the Niketown running club, Josh was the first one to come forward and ask to learn what I teach. Which to me speaks volumes to his passion for becoming a better runner regardless to his age. He could understand the basic science which I teach, which the adults around him purposefully chose to ignore.

And in that fact you could overlook every other comment which speaks acknowledgement to what I teach. What were your distance times at that age anyway?

And what he stated is what’s true, that my technique is completely backwards to natural running as well as everything runners are taught. But for some reason he recognizes the efficiency in work load to achieve the same speed (In my world, that’s called improvement) So with knowing your perspective you’ll gladly argue until you’re blue in the face protecting that agenda and viewpoint.

You asked for elite runners and he’s definitely in the top realms to his age group. And unlike adults, he’s completely open in his opinions instead of having an ego agenda to fulfill or more importantly for you, defend.

He has absolutely no understanding to the significance of what he’s learned. And without understanding the politics and reality of the sports industry, his opinion is straightforward and honest. And he learned from me personally, something you obviously haven't done.

If my work wasn’t significantly different, then Nike wouldn’t have asked me into their lab. If my work didn’t demonstrate opportunities, then I wouldn’t have been invited to teach through their store in the first place.

And as backwards as my ideas are in print, they work. If they didn’t, I don’t think Josh would have written what he did.

And the question I ask you is what were your times at that age? Or are they even as good now?

Since I can walk at 9MPH and outrun a 12MPH with ease, how fast can you run anyway???

Superburtm,

PLLLLEEEEEEEZZZZZEEEE don’t give up treadmill training. It’s probably the most underappreciated, underused, and completely misunderstood training tool runners use.

If you’re serious about racing, and want of improvement, then treadmill work should be 20-25% of your training time. Only running on the machine is the last thing you should do with it.

The difference is how you use it. I’m guessing that you keep your belt at a 0% incline?

Ewart,

Did you read the study I posted?

The idea is with the fact that this forum is for racing, not merely plodding along I hope????

As track shoes demand forefoot landing, then the question is if that really is the fastest way to run or biomechanically most efficient (fastest, for you Laker) to run with regardless of track or street.

IP: Logged

posted Jun-18-2007 11:40 AM               

quote:

---

You asked for elite runners and he’s definitely in the top realms to his age group.

---

IP: Logged

posted Jun-18-2007 12:02 PM            

IP: Logged

posted Jun-18-2007 12:08 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by sport jester:
On a treadmill, the efficiency of weight transfer is altered because you have to compensate and fight the surface underneath you while it pulls your foot backwards.

---

This isn't true at all. The only differences between running on a treadmill and running on a road surface is that the treadmill has an inherent amount of 'give' (dependant solely on the build quality of the machine itself) and you're basically forced to run in a straight line. Otherwise, they are the same. A moving belt surface contributes no changes to running.

IP: Logged

posted Jun-18-2007 02:34 PM               

The most interesting difference for me in running on a treadmill is the visual disconnect of the process.

http://www.journalofvision.org/1/3/4/

If treadmill running were identical to street running, the visual disconnect wouldn’t be measurable. Oh, and its physically impossible for humans to run straight. Otherwise it wouldn’t be referred to as Forward drift, now would it?

As we’re naturally stronger on one side of our body then the other, our stronger leg naturally pushes the body towards it’s weaker side (hence the description of forward drift).

In that light, it’s easy for a slower runner to beat a faster runner, simply by running straighter. In asking Nike’s top people, they acknowledge that humans can’t run a race distance, they will always run further. How much further you run for any given race is the question I’ve been pursuing of recent.

That’s been an area of interest for me in how we manage to subconsciously control our running direction in compensation to your natural drift rate, and how a runner can visually train to increase the skill of straighter running. What’s your drift rate?

The physical difference of treadmill running is the variable of forward momentum. That’s the integral factor to weight transfer efficiency and how much energy you expend when you run.

http://www.ottopohl.com/Stories/2002_Stories/NYTheads2.htm

The article describes the formula to measure. And what Josh acknowledges is that his transfer rate is much more efficient through decreasing his vertical lift per step and torso rotation, which is one way the body compensates for forward drift. I teach a straighter way to both walk and run.

Which measuring and altering one’s transfer efficiency means easier running, faster running, and safer running.

With the Kenyan women, I’m simply the first person to recreate their efficiency rates. So towards understanding walking and running biomechanics I really don’t care how much energy one consumes to run any given speed, my question is how much energy you waste to attain that speed.

And without forward momentum, watching someone run on a treadmill demonstrates how reliant they are to muscular energy expenditure compared with their ability to utilize their natural momentum.

Oh, and then there’s Hopper,

Nice to see you back…. Since you haven’t called in a while I thought I’d update you a little more. First off, I have yet to meet a runner who doesn’t like what I do. The key here is that they’ve learned from me personally and you haven’t…

So when you come to Portland, Oregon please get in touch, because you’re the one I would love to teach most… And if you know anyone here, tell them I would be eager to have them be a trusted reference for you.

Yea Josh is young, but he was the first person to express interest, not the last. I taught a number of adults through the store. I spent the entire winter teaching through the Niketown store and working with multiple adults. Josh simply wrote his opinions most eloquently for Nike’s lab.
To that he acknowledges that what I teach is completely backwards to his coaching, but an easier way to run.

Especially since an average 20 beat per minute decrease in heart rate was measured in comparison with the test group before learning what I teach regardless of incline levels. And with increasing the incline levels, heart rate efficiencies showed the largest decrease in heart rate at the highest incline levels in comparison.

And ya know what? I’m PROUDLY self taught in what I do. However, that fact does make my ability to publish in “peer review” publications a little difficult, which is why I’m honored that Nike takes me seriously and put their company reputation on the line by allowing me to teach through their stores.

And to make things a little more fair in exchange, I’ve asked my track student to join this to give you someone else besides myself to query.

Oh, and he can also verify that I can outrun a 12mph treadmill…

IP: Logged

posted Jun-18-2007 02:50 PM               

"The physical difference of treadmill running is the variable of forward momentum"

simply not true. You would do better to drop nonsense pseudo-science like this from your explanations.

[This message has been edited by JimR (edited Jun-18-2007).]

IP: Logged

posted Jun-18-2007 04:40 PM               

sportliar,
"Since I can walk at 9MPH and outrun a 12MPH with ease, how fast can you run anyway???"
That's a 2:11 marathon pace you are boasting about - I say put up or shut up. Here's a challenge for you, if you can drop a 1:05.30 half-marathon, hell, if you can even get within 10 minutes of the 31.xx 10k you claim - which you should be able to do this weekend since it is so easy for you - I'll admit you know what you are talking about. Enough fluff about who you've coached, the racehorses you've educated,and the Niketown's you've taught at, what's it going to be? Run a race or run your mouth?

IP: Logged

posted Jun-18-2007 05:15 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by sport jester:

Oh, and he can also verify that I can outrun a 12mph treadmill…

---

Whoopdefuggingdoo!!! I'm right with you on this one! I can outrun a 12mph treadmill too, because it never leaves the gym!!

IP: Logged

posted Jun-18-2007 06:37 PM            

Your early posts on stored energy were very close to the mark. Actually, the relationship is spring/mass/damper, where muscles store and release energy, and they also lose energy in the form of heat. (A comparable analagy would be a shock absorber in an auto.) A good example of using stored muscle energy can be found in downhill skiers. They are constantly storing and releasing huge amounts of energy as they proceed down the course.

I am attaching a link to an old but very interesting book by an English Engineering professor by the name of J E Gordon. I used to have several of his books and they help explain the spring/mass/damper concept very well.

http://www.amazon.com/Science-Strong-Materials-Through-Floor/dp/0691023808

You may find an online copy if you google "The New Science of Strong Materials."

IP: Logged

posted Jun-18-2007 10:09 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by tigger:
Actually, the relationship is spring/mass/damper, where muscles store and release energy, and they also lose energy in the form of heat.

---

I have a lot of trouble with this concept, i.e., energy recovery through the leg compression cycle.

If that were true, then wouldn't the system bounce or demonstrate elastic behavior. It does not do that. I think that the energy recover of the entire leg system, not just the tendons, is very small.

Ted

IP: Logged

posted Jun-19-2007 06:37 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by TedAndresen:
I have a lot of trouble with this concept, i.e., energy recovery through the leg compression cycle.

If that were true, then wouldn't the system bounce or demonstrate elastic behavior. It does not do that. I think that the energy recover of the entire leg system, not just the tendons, is very small.

Ted

---

That is why muscles contract and then extend. They are storing and releasing energy. And that is why tendon was used in longbows.

Think about it from a macro viewpoint for a second. Where does the energy go? It has no place to go but within the body, where it gets stored and released or gets converted to heat.

IP: Logged

posted Jun-19-2007 03:06 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by tigger:
Think about it from a macro viewpoint for a second. Where does the energy go? It has no place to go but within the body, where it gets stored and released or gets converted to heat.

---

But that is what happens. When the leg is compressed between Touch Down and mid-stance, the energy absorbed by the spring like compression of the leg is not returned as mechanical energy. It is released as heat.

The leg may compress in a spring-like manor, where the restoring force is proportional to the applied force, but that doesn't imply that the energy of compression can be returned as mechanical energy.

I think that the return of energy as mechanical work is rather tiny.

I would guess that most of the published work relating to the spring like nature of the leg is related to cadaver studies of the Achilles tendon and not to the complete leg structure.

Ted

IP: Logged

posted Jun-19-2007 03:59 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by TedAndresen:
But that is what happens. When the leg is compressed between Touch Down and mid-stance, the energy absorbed by the spring like compression of the leg is not returned as mechanical energy. It is released as heat.

The leg may compress in a spring-like manor, where the restoring force is proportional to the applied force, but that doesn't imply that the energy of compression can be returned as mechanical energy.

I think that the return of energy as mechanical work is rather tiny.

I would guess that most of the published work relating to the spring like nature of the leg is related to cadaver studies of the Achilles tendon and not to the complete leg structure.

Ted

---

I guess you have to be a tigger to understand springs!!

IP: Logged

posted Jun-20-2007 02:15 PM               

I enjoyed your reference to the corpse. That’s the natural limit of reference to studying the human body and my joke as well. We know a lot about how dead people move and very little about how alive people move.

Corpseology was one medieval term for the science of anatomy studies I found and the unfortunate limit to how we perceive the human body.

The spring use of tendons isn’t what I challenge, because it is a natural part of muscle biology. In fact, studies show that the less stretching a human does, increases the elasticity and saves an athlete energy for achieving the same speeds until the muscle warms up.

I’m all for maximizing one’s own muscle utility. However, one still requires energy added to move forward. And how much added energy to achieve any given speed is my question.

The promotion of high turnover rates is my example. With fast twitch and slow twitch fibers, high turnover rates in one’s gait demands reliance of our FT type I fibers, while strength and endurance is the function of our ST or type II fibers.

Running on one’s toes is an incredibly quick way to run for a track environment because such posture demands type I muscle reliance. It’s good for about a lap of a track and that’s about it.

Distance runners for efficiency have to alter their gait to maximize the use of their type II muscle fibers, not only in biological practicality, but speed and distance optimization.

So I merely argue to utilize the entire muscle rather than hyper develop a small part of it.

As to Hopper,

When I started this, I had pathetic running form and couldn’t run 6MPH on a belt. With 12MPH the typical speed limit to most treadmills, I used that speed as my benchmark. My goal was to figure out how to outrun it.

I got to 12MPH and 4.5% incline for peak speed resistance. And to do that I had to figure out how to increase my stride length, turnover rates, and run straight as possible.

What I had to learn to do that is the perspective I take. And I did it by learning from other athletes. What problem do you have with my teachers? If they couldn't teach me anything, I wouldn't run as fast as I can. Why argue with success?

I’m not a distance runner by nature. What I have learned about myself through teaching on the track is to the purity of the sprint. If I were to race, I prefer peak speed to distance accomplishments.

[This message has been edited by sport jester (edited Jun-20-2007).]

IP: Logged

posted Jun-23-2007 07:12 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by sport jester:
As to Hopper,

When I started this, I had pathetic running form and couldn’t run 6MPH on a belt. With 12MPH the typical speed limit to most treadmills, I used that speed as my benchmark. My goal was to figure out how to outrun it.

I got to 12MPH and 4.5% incline for peak speed resistance. And to do that I had to figure out how to increase my stride length, turnover rates, and run straight as possible.

What I had to learn to do that is the perspective I take. And I did it by learning from other athletes. What problem do you have with my teachers? If they couldn't teach me anything, I wouldn't run as fast as I can. Why argue with success?

I’m not a distance runner by nature. What I have learned about myself through teaching on the track is to the purity of the sprint. If I were to race, I prefer peak speed to distance accomplishments.

[This message has been edited by sport jester (edited Jun-20-2007).]

---

IP: Logged

posted Jun-23-2007 11:50 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by hopper3011:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by sport jester:
[b]As to Hopper,

When I started this, I had pathetic running form and couldn’t run 6MPH on a belt. With 12MPH the typical speed limit to most treadmills, I used that speed as my benchmark. My goal was to figure out how to outrun it.

I got to 12MPH and 4.5% incline for peak speed resistance. And to do that I had to figure out how to increase my stride length, turnover rates, and run straight as possible.

What I had to learn to do that is the perspective I take. And I did it by learning from other athletes. What problem do you have with my teachers? If they couldn't teach me anything, I wouldn't run as fast as I can. Why argue with success?

I’m not a distance runner by nature. What I have learned about myself through teaching on the track is to the purity of the sprint. If I were to race, I prefer peak speed to distance accomplishments.

[This message has been edited by sport jester (edited Jun-20-2007).]

---

I think delusional is more apt. Maybe he's a troll. If so then he's been a good one. If not then, wow! His last post may be his best....er worst...oh you know what I mean.

IP: Logged

posted Jun-24-2007 05:11 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by TedAndresen:
I have a lot of trouble with this concept, i.e., energy recovery through the leg compression cycle.

If that were true, then wouldn't the system bounce or demonstrate elastic behavior. It does not do that. I think that the energy recover of the entire leg system, not just the tendons, is very small.

Ted

---

Hi Ted. I think the system does 'bounce'. Try this. Do a static jump from a static pose - bend the knees if you like. See how high you can reach up a wall. Now try to jump a lot higher. Instinctively you will let your body drop before 'springng' up. Why? You are using the potential energy of the body and transfering it to elastic energy in the leg so you can release more energy for the jump. With the drop you can get another coulple of inches higher.

If you watch high jumpers you will see how they bound as they approach the bar.

In running I can see an energy shuttle going on between elastic, kenetic and potential energy.

-b

IP: Logged

posted Jun-24-2007 05:17 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by tigger:

I am attaching a link to an old but very interesting book by an English Engineering professor by the name of J E Gordon. I used to have several of his books and they help explain the spring/mass/damper concept very well.

http://www.amazon.com/Science-Strong-Materials-Through-Floor/dp/0691023808

You may find an online copy if you google "The New Science of Strong Materials."

---

Hi Tigger

Thanks for the link - looks like a great book - just up my street. I will look out for it.

BTW - any signs of spring yet in your neck of the woods?

-b

IP: Logged

posted Jun-24-2007 05:48 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by brianfie:
If you watch high jumpers you will see how they bound as they approach the bar.

---

Brian,

Yes, I can see your point. But, to me it seems as if cognition or conscience activation of the muscle it what is causing the rebound.

Here’s my thought experiment:

Suppose someone is unconscious and they are placed in an upright position with their knees bent to the same angle that they would be bent during foot-strike in running and their quadriceps were electrically stimulated so they supported the person’s weight.

If you then raised them up to a height similar to the height that someone reached when they were running, or hopping in place and dropped them, would they bounce?

Would the leg of an unconscious person with a leg that was electrically stimulated so it could support their weight, act like a spring?

I don’t think it would? I think that conscious contraction causes the rebound, not that the quadricep behaves as a spring.

Ted

[This message has been edited by TedAndresen (edited Jun-24-2007).]

IP: Logged

posted Jun-24-2007 06:34 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by brianfie:
Hi Tigger

Thanks for the link - looks like a great book - just up my street. I will look out for it.

BTW - any signs of spring yet in your neck of the woods?

-b

---

The weather will always surprise you here in the coastal mountains. Several days ago we had a snowstorm. The bears must have been pretty confused! Overall though, it's a great place to run....never too hot and always scenic.

IP: Logged

posted Jun-24-2007 06:46 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by TedAndresen:
Brian,

Would the leg of an unconscious person with a leg that was electrically stimulated so it could support their weight, act like a spring?

[This message has been edited by TedAndresen (edited Jun-24-2007).]

---

Ted,

You are more or less correct, but only because muscle/tendon energy storage is not done in the same manner as a rock or a ball. It is a conscious action in humans and animals. Deer or antelope can jump as high as they do because they utilize this principle. But cut their heads off and drop them onto pavement and they go splat.

Let's extend your experiment, but with a ping pong ball and a ball bearing. Why does one bounce more than the other? It is because each of them has different spring/mass/damper characteristics. But both will absorb and release energy. So will the body, and in the case of the conscious person, he/she will consciously store energy and then release it during the jump phase.

I think you have already agreed there is at least some spring release action in a muscle, so I think we are only talking about the amount or degree of energy available for release in this manner.

IP: Logged