posted May-05-2007 09:38 AM               

I've got a 10k on June 8th that I want to PR (54:04), maybe even break the 52 min mark (8:30 pace, although that's a stretch at best). I'm on the second week of RW Ultimate 10k Training Plan. Although I'm a novice runer, I am following the advanced program which has two interval sessions per week. I'm setting my sights high, so I do the intervals at a pace that targets an 8:30 race pace.

This week, I struggled on my long run of 10 miles to keep a 9:40 pace. Two questions:

First, can I assume that the long run struggles are a result of two interval sessions in a single week?

Second, Would easing up a bit on my long runs to a 9:40 pace hurt my chances of a PR as long as I do the interval training well?

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posted May-05-2007 10:00 AM            

Two interval session are a lot in a week, especially for a modest mileage runner. No doubt that will cause you to struggle on a long run.

Your long run pace is still only 10k pace +1:10. That is still pretty fast. You could go much slower and still gain fitness from these runs.

Southern Man

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We're on a road to nowhere. Come on along.

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posted May-06-2007 08:31 AM            

I can't remember which sources but I've read in a number of books/sites that you should keep similar workouts (endurance, basic speed, VO2Max) 3-4 days apart for maximum benefit and avoiding overtraining ... this allows body to recover and adapt to the specific energy system improvements you are training for ... and you also need to alternate hard and easy days; so don't do your LR the very next day after an interval session, or if you do, take 2 easier days directly afterward ... that's been the general concensus on the information I've found on the topic ...

I haven't seen the RW workouts but I followed a Pfitz-based program loosely and it called for a LR and LR2 (2/3 distance of LR, approx) along with a VO2Max or Tempo paced run and then a basic speed workout each week ... So endurance and basic speed occured every week and VO2Max or Lactate threshold occured mostly on alternate weeks or sometimes in different phases of the build-up to the race (LT near the beginning of the training schedule and VO2Max near the peak performance) ... I saw steady improvements and also increased my distance of race over the summer and ended with a marathon in October following this type of set-up - never dropping the speed workouts even when heading to the marathon ... racing every 2-3 weeks for the most part ... 5Ks - 10Ks -15K-10 miler- some more 10Ks - 20 miler - marathon ....

that's how my experience went and I hope you have similar success with your training ... it's sounds good to me and just make sure to space those harder workouts and let yourself run slower if need be on those LRs!

Happy Running!!!

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posted May-06-2007 08:43 AM               

quote:

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Originally posted by SportiGrl:
Don't time your pace on your long run, it's basic endurance ... and it will probably be a little slower since your body is more tired from the extra interval work ...

I can't remember which sources but I've read in a number of books/sites that you should keep similar workouts (endurance, basic speed, VO2Max) 3-4 days apart for maximum benefit and avoiding overtraining ... this allows body to recover and adapt to the specific energy system improvements you are training for ... and you also need to alternate hard and easy days; so don't do your LR the very next day after an interval session, or if you do, take 2 easier days directly afterward ... that's been the general concensus on the information I've found on the topic ...

I haven't seen the RW workouts but I followed a Pfitz-based program loosely and it called for a LR and LR2 (2/3 distance of LR, approx) along with a VO2Max or Tempo paced run and then a basic speed workout each week ... So endurance and basic speed occured every week and VO2Max or Lactate threshold occured mostly on alternate weeks or sometimes in different phases of the build-up to the race (LT near the beginning of the training schedule and VO2Max near the peak performance) ... I saw steady improvements and also increased my distance of race over the summer and ended with a marathon in October following this type of set-up - never dropping the speed workouts even when heading to the marathon ... racing every 2-3 weeks for the most part ... 5Ks - 10Ks -15K-10 miler- some more 10Ks - 20 miler - marathon ....

that's how my experience went and I hope you have similar success with your training ... it's sounds good to me and just make sure to space those harder workouts and let yourself run slower if need be on those LRs!

Happy Running!!!

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Thanks. I do intervals on Mon and Thur with a Saturday long run. I also have two easy runs per week Tuesday and Friday. They reccomend a 6-8 mile run on Sunday with 6 strideouts but my schedule rarely allows me a Sunday run. I think things are spaced out evenly enough.

It seems that I do my long runs closer to race pace than most people. It would be difficult for me to change that or leave the stopwatch at home. I can't get it out of my head that 12 miles at 9:30 is better than 12 miles at 10:15, no matter what (assuming I don't injure myself and there's no sign of that yet).

Any thoughts on advantages or disadvantages of doing long runs close to race pace?

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posted May-06-2007 10:01 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by mrinertia:
I do intervals on Mon and Thur with a Saturday long run. I

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Slow down for the interval session on Thursday. Then you should be fully recovered for the Saturday long run.

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posted May-06-2007 03:21 PM               

As for the pace, I think that's a function of the amount you are running, lower mileage runners will naturally run a little faster ( relatively speaking ) on their daily runs because they won't have the same accumulated fatigue as higher mileage folks. That said, increasing your mileage and taking it a little slower will help your aerobic ability more than running faster and less.

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posted May-07-2007 10:08 AM               

If you are adamant about running your long runs faster, then you have to ditch one of those interval sessions (Thur). Because with 2 interval sessions, you have to do your long runs at least 1:30 slower than 10K pace and preferably closer to 2:00 slower. You will be all torn up and not strong for your race at your current training method.

Now, one other solution is to ditch the Thurs interval session and run EZ. On Saturday, within your long run, finish the last few miles at 9 min pace progressing to 8:30 pace the last mile and then do some striders.

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Todd

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posted May-07-2007 10:15 AM            

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posted May-07-2007 12:00 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by Tchuck:
I hate to tell you but on your low mileage, your training may be counterproductive. I know, I trained like you and did fine but it wasn't until I slowed down some of my runs and cut back a lot of my fast intervals is when I got faster because I got more aerobicially fit. Your training is too fast and too much fast for your miles. You need to base your training pace off of your current level of fitness not your goals. A 5K race can help determine your training paces or your upcoming 10K.

If you are adamant about running your long runs faster, then you have to ditch one of those interval sessions (Thur). Because with 2 interval sessions, you have to do your long runs at least 1:30 slower than 10K pace and preferably closer to 2:00 slower. You will be all torn up and not strong for your race at your current training method.

Now, one other solution is to ditch the Thurs interval session and run EZ. On Saturday, within your long run, finish the last few miles at 9 min pace progressing to 8:30 pace the last mile and then do some striders.

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Thanks. It's difficult for me to think of a workout as "too fast". I figure if I can do it, how can it be too fast, assuming I don't get injured?

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posted May-07-2007 12:21 PM            

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posted May-07-2007 02:20 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by mrinertia:
Thanks. It's difficult for me to think of a workout as "too fast". I figure if I can do it, how can it be too fast, assuming I don't get injured?

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Running fast in daily work outs is "racing". Save your racing for "the race". When you race in training, your progress will ultimately halt and you will become stale, burnt out and most likely injured. You are putting out hard efforts several times per week without the aerobic base to support it.

Think of the analagy of weight lifting. Lets say you want to get stronger in your bench press. Would you work your chest to the max most days of the week. NO! You would not absorb the training and grow from it, just continue to break down. Most power lifter work their chest hard once and maybe twice per week and recover the other days and get stronger during these days. Recovery is the key to success.

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Todd

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posted May-07-2007 02:59 PM            

A few days ago I ran a 5k at 6:34 per mile pace.

I will agree that:
You are running way too fast in training.

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posted May-08-2007 07:15 AM               

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posted May-08-2007 08:41 AM               

Saturday: 12 mile long run
Sunday: off
Monday 5-7 recovery
Tuesday: 7-9 mile with 4-7 at tempo pace
Wednesday: off
Thursday: 7 miles
Friday: 5-7 miles

This will give me 36-42 miles to work with and using the tempo run should improve my aerobic base. I can add miles to my long run and medium length runs as time goes on.

Now, here's the million dollar question: How do I determine what my tempo pace and long run pace should be? Do I need to run a race to find outwhat race pace is in order to make that determination? I hadn't planned on racing till my 10k, but could sneak in a 5k in the near future for that purpose if need be.

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posted May-08-2007 09:15 AM               

quote:

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Originally posted by mrinertia:
Ok, so how does this sound:

Saturday: 12 mile long run
Sunday: off
Monday 5-7 recovery
Tuesday: 7-9 mile with 4-7 at tempo pace
Wednesday: off
Thursday: 7 miles
Friday: 5-7 miles

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My thoughts:

5-7 miles 'recovery' runs, too long for your recovery runs at your pace. Keep these within 40 minutes.

Tuesday, if you find the tempo portion too demanding or you're running that tempo pace too slow, reduce the tempo portion to 3-4 miles, the rest of it is warmup/cooldown.

Friday, limit to 5 miles.

toss some strides into the thursday run, it'll help with leg speed.

edit: for tempo pace, refer to McMillan's calculator, it looks like you should do it somewhere between 8:30ish and 9:00 minute pace if you're targetting a 52 minute 10k.

[This message has been edited by JimR (edited May-08-2007).]

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posted May-08-2007 10:09 AM               

quote:

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Originally posted by JimR:
My thoughts:

5-7 miles 'recovery' runs, too long for your recovery runs at your pace. Keep these within 40 minutes.

Tuesday, if you find the tempo portion too demanding or you're running that tempo pace too slow, reduce the tempo portion to 3-4 miles, the rest of it is warmup/cooldown.

Friday, limit to 5 miles.

toss some strides into the thursday run, it'll help with leg speed.

edit: for tempo pace, refer to McMillan's calculator, it looks like you should do it somewhere between 8:30ish and 9:00 minute pace if you're targetting a 52 minute 10k.

[This message has been edited by JimR (edited May-08-2007).]

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This is getting frustrating. In an earlier post, Tchuck used the term "low mielage" when describing my training. Now I'm being asked to cut back even further. I guess I'm in a dangerous area with a little knowledge being a dangerous thing. I've been running for a year now with the "more is better" philosophy and remain uninjured. The first time I ran I could only do 1/2 mile and then walked home. I've done 2 HMs so far. I enjoy running for the sake of running, but would like to be able to run fast over great distances. On any given training run, I don't race, but I do run hard. It is difficult for me to see how easing up is going to help me reach my goal. Could you point me toward any books or articles that give information on the physiology and physics that support your advice? I'm fairly analytical and if I could see some of the science behind the philosophy that easing up will help me get faster, it would put my mind at ease. Thanks.

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posted May-08-2007 10:17 AM               

quote:

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Originally posted by mrinertia:
This is getting frustrating. In an earlier post, Tchuck used the term "low mielage" when describing my training

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I'm just pointing out that you should probably keep those two recovery runs reasonably short. Keep your recovery run pace slow, and don't go too far. If you do, say a 10 minute pace for recovery run, 7 miles is 70 minutes and I think that's too far/long for a recovery run.

[This message has been edited by JimR (edited May-08-2007).]

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posted May-08-2007 10:19 AM            

Anyway, here's my advice, fwiw:

Go over and start reading the "truth about mileage" thread in the basic training forum. That's a good start.

Then order a Jack Daniels book on amazon. He does a wonderful job explaining the basic physiology of training. Caveat: his training plans are generally considered aggressive, so I wouldn't necessarily go out and use one of his training plans just yet. Read his book to understand the basic principles--no matter who designed your training plan, the principles are generally the same. The difference in most training plans is in the pace to use for different types of runs and perhaps the distance or duration of those runs.

After reading Daniels I would go read about some other approaches to training (Pfitzinger, Higgons, even Galloway--they're all popular and easy to get info on). Think about all the info and then decide what approach you want to take.

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posted May-08-2007 10:56 AM               

quote:

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Originally posted by thereshegoes:
mrinertia, you are not alone. I think everyone scratches their head about this at the beginning and then a few months later can't believe they ever ran so hard every day when now they run easy most days and are improving at a fast rate!

Anyway, here's my advice, fwiw:

Go over and start reading the "truth about mileage" thread in the basic training forum. That's a good start.

Then order a Jack Daniels book on amazon. He does a wonderful job explaining the basic physiology of training. Caveat: his training plans are generally considered aggressive, so I wouldn't necessarily go out and use one of his training plans just yet. Read his book to understand the basic principles--no matter who designed your training plan, the principles are generally the same. The difference in most training plans is in the pace to use for different types of runs and perhaps the distance or duration of those runs.

After reading Daniels I would go read about some other approaches to training (Pfitzinger, Higgons, even Galloway--they're all popular and easy to get info on). Think about all the info and then decide what approach you want to take.

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Will do, thanks. Looks like a trip to Borders is in order this weekend. I'm thinking June 8th may be a bit too soon to expect a PR for a 10k, then. Ah well, it'll be a good opportunity to asses my progress.

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posted May-08-2007 09:45 PM               

Here is my suggestion for what it's worth

Saturday: 12 mile long run comfortable w/ last 2-3 at a faster pace if feeling good and 4-8 striders
Sunday: off
Monday 5 miles comfortable
Tuesday: 8-10 mile with 3-5 miles at tempo pace.
One week do a faster tempo pace of 3 miles and the other week do 4-5 miles at a bit slower tempo pace. Can't give paces until you run a 5K race or 10K to assess your current level of fitness
Wednesday: off or 2 - 3 miles slow
Thursday: 7 miles comfortable with 4 working up to 8 quick 100M striders
Friday: 4 - 7 miles comfortable

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Todd

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posted May-09-2007 03:34 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by thereshegoes:
Then order a Jack Daniels book on amazon. He does a wonderful job explaining the basic physiology of training. Caveat: his training plans are generally considered aggressive, so I wouldn't necessarily go out and use one of his training plans just yet.

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Daniels' Running Formula...great reading and has some outstanding schedules for all distances. I disagree though with calling his plans "aggressive." He allows you to pick your mileage (which you should do based upon what you know that you can handle). He then recommends quality workouts based upon your weekly mileage and VDOT pace. If you are sure that you can handle 40 miles per week, then he will recommend two "quality" workouts, with quality running being a percentage of 40 miles.

If I were you, and I were going to be running 40 miles in a week, my schedule would look something like this:

M: Quality: 6 x 800m at I pace (after 2-3 miles of warm-up)
T: 3.5 miles recovery
W: 8 miles easy
Th: Quality: 6 x 1200m at T pace (after 2-3 mile of warm-up)
F: 3.5 miles recovery
S: 12 miles easy
Sun: OFF

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My Running Log

Me...Running

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posted May-09-2007 04:22 PM            

Being 56 I find it takes me a bit longer than some to recover after a longer or faster run. I ran the Toronto Sporting Life 10k on Sunday in 51:50, but it is flat or slightly downhill all the way so perhaps adding 2 minutes would give a fair comparison.

My point is that I think what works best for each of us may be an individual thing, I do think more mileage would make me faster, and am planning to gradually increase with the goal of running a half marathon this fall.

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posted May-09-2007 05:17 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by Tchuck:
I certainly agree that on your miles that more than 45 minutes is not a recovery run. BUT, if you take the day off after your long run, you may not need the recovery run or recovery pace.

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Yeah, she's got that gray-zone thing going with a day off followed by her sorta recovery run. I'm looking at it from the perspective of what she has coming the following day as opposed to what she did the day before.

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posted May-10-2007 09:00 AM               

quote:

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Originally posted by Tchuck:
I certainly agree that on your miles that more than 45 minutes is not a recovery run. BUT, if you take the day off after your long run, you may not need the recovery run or recovery pace. Listen to your body. A far as tempo paces. Generally, faster tempo (3 miles or 3-4 X 1 mile) is around 30 sec. slower than current 5K pace. And a slower Tinman tempo (4-6 miles) would be more like 50-60 seconds slower than 5K race pace but for longer distance.

Here is my suggestion for what it's worth

Saturday: 12 mile long run comfortable w/ last 2-3 at a faster pace if feeling good and 4-8 striders
Sunday: off
Monday 5 miles comfortable
Tuesday: 8-10 mile with 3-5 miles at tempo pace.
One week do a faster tempo pace of 3 miles and the other week do 4-5 miles at a bit slower tempo pace. Can't give paces until you run a 5K race or 10K to assess your current level of fitness
Wednesday: off or 2 - 3 miles slow
Thursday: 7 miles comfortable with 4 working up to 8 quick 100M striders
Friday: 4 - 7 miles comfortable

Ok, I haven't raced in a while and I've certainly improved since my last one. I'm not a fan of 5ks, but I think I'll get one in within the next week or two in order to see what my 5k pace is.

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posted May-10-2007 09:29 AM               

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Todd

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