| Author |
Topic: 2007 Sub 40 10K Goal Thread |
gcklo
Cool Runner |
 posted Aug-05-2007 05:23 PM
  
quote:
Originally posted by norrin radd:
Sorry I didn't see you there. I just finished posting a somewhat lengthy report on the Boomers board which always seems to appreciate a good race report:
http://www.coolrunning.com/forums/Forum13/HTML/010732.shtml
Bottom line for this board is that I achieved my goal with time to spare - 39:39 - and that Jim demolished his goal but I'm sure he will tell his own story. Congratulations on achieving your goal and good luck getting your 10k time down further. I just looked back at my times and it took me 10 months to go from a 43:51 10k to todays 39:39. I have no idea if this is fast, slow or average. John
There should be a site to rate different races. If there is one, I would rate this race very high. ------------------
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Jim24315
Cool Runner |
posted Aug-05-2007 07:18 PM
Sorry we missed you, George, and thank you for the kind words. I'm glad you enjoyed the race and I quarantee you that you would have run a faster time if you had time to warm up. I could go on and on about the whys and hows, but it does make a difference. Some people think it's only of minor importance but it really isn't. I always try to get to the race an hour early. The year is still young--5 months left for you to do it!
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Jim24315
Cool Runner |
posted Aug-05-2007 07:34 PM
quote:
Originally posted by norrin radd:
Sorry I didn't see you there. I just finished posting a somewhat lengthy report on the Boomers board which always seems to appreciate a good race report:
http://www.coolrunning.com/forums/Forum13/HTML/010732.shtml
I just looked back at my times and it took me 10 months to go from a 43:51 10k to todays 39:39. I have no idea if this is fast, slow or average.John
Now is my time to get back at you for I saying I was "faking it" this morning. "I have no idea..." give me a break  Okay, just in case you are being honest, it falls into the category of rapid improvement  edit to add big grin [This message has been edited by Jim24315 (edited Aug-05-2007).]
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norrin radd
Cool Runner |
posted Aug-05-2007 08:37 PM
Heh heh. Actually I was being fairly genuine since it feels I could have reached this improvement quite a bit quicker without first a period of injury that kept me at low mileage for a while and then a period in June when life got in the way. But looking at it realistically, I suppose practically anybody is going to go through such periods and I should probably be grateful that I only had two such periods in over a year now.I'd like to see your race report Jim. I'm curious when you knew you had it nailed. FYI the race results are up already if you didn't get the details at the finish:
http://www.doitsports.com/newresults3/client/178148_208170_2007.html
They don't have them age graded but you must be well into the rarified air of the 80% range..... and George, I notice that the LMJS has some good pictures of the July race up:
http://www.lmjs.org/Photos/thumbnails.php?album=35 and I forgot to thank everyone on this board who offered consistent advice way back in February that the key to the sub-40 10k was to get my endurance up by increasing mileage and combin that with tempo runs. Worked a charm. Thanks Jim, SouthernMan, Tuscaloosarunner and MRCT. ------------------
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Tchuck
Cool Runner |
posted Aug-06-2007 07:21 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Jim24315:
Just got back from the Alameda Parks 10k where I ran 39:36. I am very, very pleased to have finally achieved this goal after many months of hard work and plenty of doubts along the way.I had the pleasure of spending some time with John "norrin radd" while I was there and will let him tell his own story rather than spill the beans now. We were unable to find George "gcklo" but hope he had a nice race. Thank you everyone for the all the support you've given me. Will say more later. JIm
Awesome job, Jim. Hard work and positive attitude are key to reach one's goals at "any age". You are a great role model for all of us. ------------------
Todd
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thereshegoes
Cool Runner |
posted Aug-06-2007 08:13 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Jim24315:
Just got back from the Alameda Parks 10k where I ran 39:36. I am very, very pleased to have finally achieved this goal after many months of hard work and plenty of doubts along the way.I had the pleasure of spending some time with John "norrin radd" while I was there and will let him tell his own story rather than spill the beans now. We were unable to find George "gcklo" but hope he had a nice race. Thank you everyone for the all the support you've given me. Will say more later. JIm
Woohoo Jim!!! It was a long time coming!! Yeah!!!
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joev9
Cool Runner |
posted Aug-06-2007 08:41 AM
Nice job Jim and norrin! Way to get it done. I'm hoping to be under 41 minutes at the 10K mark of the Falmouth Road Race this weekend (the race is 7 miles total). I think I have a good shot, but I know that I have a ways to go before I'm under 40.
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jtv
Cool Runner |
posted Aug-06-2007 12:18 PM
Jim and NorinraddCongrats on the breaking the sub-40 barrier. Great job! ------------------
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MichiganFlyer
Cool Runner |
posted Aug-06-2007 12:27 PM
Nice job guys!Now since I haven't been paying too much attention please let me know the mileage and training that brought you to this point? How long did it take you to go from sub 20 five-k to sub 40 ten-k?
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norrin radd
Cool Runner |
posted Aug-06-2007 01:30 PM
Thanks. The short answer to your questions for me is:
How long: About exactly 7 months from sub-20 5k to sub-40 10k
Mileage: In both my 'big' races this year I averaged about exactly 50 miles per week for the month before the race, tapering slightly in the week before. I run 6 or 7 days a week and try to get in at least one tempo session, usually on the track, and one long run if I'm working up to a longer race. My next race is hilly so I've been adding in hill runs which I think have been helping my endurance a lot.
I plan out my training up to the key races but am not rigidly following a plan. I use Daniels VO2max formula to calculate appropriate training paces - particularly for any tempo or interval sessions.
All the rest of the days are easy runs, some of which I probably do too fast but I think I'm getting better at taking them easy. ------------------
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gcklo
Cool Runner |
posted Aug-06-2007 08:50 PM
quote:
Originally posted by norrin radd:
Sorry I didn't see you there. I just finished posting a somewhat lengthy report on the Boomers board which always seems to appreciate a good race report:
http://www.coolrunning.com/forums/Forum13/HTML/010732.shtml
Bottom line for this board is that I achieved my goal with time to spare - 39:39 - and that Jim demolished his goal but I'm sure he will tell his own story. Congratulations on achieving your goal and good luck getting your 10k time down further. I just looked back at my times and it took me 10 months to go from a 43:51 10k to todays 39:39. I have no idea if this is fast, slow or average. John
Hi John, So, it took you 10 months from 43+ 10k to under 40 10k and it took you 7 months from under 20 5k to under 40 10k. Does that mean you got from 43+ 10k to sub 20 5k in about 3 months? I wish I could do that. My stretch goal this year is to get to sub-20 5k and hopefully can attempt sub-40 10k late next year. ------------------
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laker
Cool Runner |
posted Aug-06-2007 10:17 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Tchuck:
Awesome job, Jim. Hard work and positive attitude are key to reach one's goals at "any age". You are a great role model for all of us.
I'll second that. Awesome performance!!!!!!!!!!!!
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norrin radd
Cool Runner |
posted Aug-06-2007 10:53 PM
So, it took you 10 months from 43+ 10k to under 40 10k and it took you 7 months from under 20 5k to under 40 10k. Does that mean you got from 43+ 10k to sub 20 5k in about 3 months?That's correct. For me it was easier, or at least quicker, to get the speed for the 5k than the endurance for the 10k. The track intervals recommended over on the sub-20 5k forum worked great and brought rapid results. I'd strongly recommend them. The 10k was about building up endurance and that process takes time and was lengthened for me by a period of injury at the start of the year (ITBS) and moving and some family issues etc in the middle of the year. Bottom line, for me the sub-20 5k was about speed and psychology (you can stand the discomfort for longer than you think you can!). The sub-40 10k was about endurance and even pacing. (Oh, and being smart enough to stick with Jim so I didn't go out too fast) I'm a science nerd so I've got charts and regressions if you need them..... ------------------
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Jim24315
Cool Runner |
posted Aug-07-2007 10:12 AM
Thank you very much everyone for all the kind words.To answer your questions, MichiganFlyer, it took me 2 years and 4 months to go from sub-20 5k to sub-40 for 10. I had 12 sub 20’s, to be exact, before I could string 2 of them together in the same race. I never went faster than 19:35 in any of them, so I really had my work cut out for me. You should be able to run 19:20 or faster to have a good shot at a sub-40. This brings me to the 2nd part—mileage. Not having great speed, I had to do it with strength—55 mpw for the past 5 months and 60 for the past 10 weeks. I used a lot of Tinman workouts, featuring longer intervals with a shorter recovery jog for most them. Closer to races I’d take a longer recovery. Since June I followed a strict Tinman schedule, getting my workouts directly from him. One thing he likes to do is tack on 3-4 200’s or 400’s at the end of a longer interval workout or tempo run. The longer intervals are almost never faster than 10k pace, with the shorter ones at the end being at mile/3k pace. It’s a fallacy, imo, that you have to hammer lots of intervals at 5k race pace and faster to improve. Tempo runs are about 45 sec per mile slower than the intervals. Also I did some hill reps—more recently 4 x 2 min with full recovery and another of 8 x 40 sec. They make a difference. Interestingly, I ran my best races at peak mileage rather than during a taper. Most programs have you picking up the intensity and reducing the mileage as you get closer to a key race. I’ve done just the opposite by keeping mileage up, but running easier towards the end. I discovered this a long time ago by accident and it continues to hold true to this day. I thought I was unique, but Tinman told me that this was the way to go before he knew much about me. Apparently this holds true for lots of runners.
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joev9
Cool Runner |
posted Aug-07-2007 10:45 AM
Jim, I'm definitely with you on the mileage thing. I feel so much more confident going into races knowing that my legs are strong from all the miles I have put in. Definitely helps me mentally at the start of a race to let the less trained, poor pacers (I know them well since I used to be one) go sprinting off the finish line knowing that I'm going to be at least holding my pace in the finishing miles and more likely speeding up. I couldn't do this on 8 mile long runs and 20 mpw (mentally or physically) but at 15 mile long runs and 45 mpw I feel like the last miles of a race are my best ones.
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dredd
Member |
posted Aug-07-2007 01:26 PM
Congrats to Jim and Norrin! Great to see more names on the graduates list.
There will hopefully be more successes over the next few months.
That's a lot of miles you've been clocking up Jim.I shy away from going much over 40 per week as I'm worried about injuries etc. Also I do as much as possible on parkland.
Do you feel that the extra miles give more benefit than tempo, intervals etc for races as short as 10k?Dredd
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Jim24315
Cool Runner |
posted Aug-07-2007 09:18 PM
Dredd,“That's a lot of miles you've been clocking up Jim.I shy away from going much over 40 per week as I'm worried about injuries etc. Also I do as much as possible on parkland.” It might be good mileage for someone my age, but even for a local runner who likes to compete it is not much. By running on parkland do you mean parks and grassy areas?
So far as injuries, I’ve probably been less injury prone on 50-60 mpw than 30-40. Up to a point I think it has a toughening affect. This is not high mileage, mind you, so I don’t know if that same trend would hold true if I had run 80-100 miles. Btw, there is a substantial return on investment when you increase from 40 to 60 mpw. As your keep going higher there is a diminishing return…going from 60-80 still helps, but not as much as 40-60, and so on up the line.
“Do you feel that the extra miles give more benefit than tempo, intervals etc for races as short as 10k?”
That’s a tough question and I don’t really see the different types of training you mention as mutually exclusive. I don’t think that there is anything more important than mileage, but that doesn’t mean that the others aren’t very important. If you are careful to run easy on your easy days, and don’t make your workouts into races, I think you can run good mileage and also do the necessary quality. For 5k/10 training especially, I think that doing double workouts is a great way to increase mileage without over stressing yourself. They take more time out of your day and you have to do more laundry, but they are definitely easier on your body.
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runfastcoach
Cool Runner |
posted Aug-07-2007 11:46 PM
I keep seeing comments about "being afraid of injuries from higher mileage" and I want to say that's nonsense, for the most part. Sure, if you increase too fast or if you run your daily runs too fast your going to get chronic fatigue and leg soreness, but injuries often occur more from stupidity, in general than anything else.If you ask around or lok at your own history, there will be a mileage zone where you ache and get injuries, below or above which you feel fine. For example, you may feel no pain or injuries at 15-25 miles per week but feel awkward, aches and pains, and more injuries between 25 and 40 miles per week. Yet, as soon as you surpass 40 miles per week you feel stronger and ache less, and you don't seem to break down. I can't explain this phenomena, but I have found it to be fairly universal. I once talked to a 2:19 marathoner who said that he always got injured when training for 3 & 6 mile collegiate races or 5k and 10k road races when running 50-60 miles per week. But, after he decided to run marathons and upped his mileage to near 100, he never got injured anymore. Odd? Tinman
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joev9
Cool Runner |
posted Aug-08-2007 08:28 AM
I agree Tinman. Last summer, I was running 20 to 28 miles per week and I could barely stay awake past 8:30 p.m. (granted I do get up at 5:00 a.m. to run). I remember thinking then that there was no way I could get my mileage higher because I would be falling asleep at dinner time. This summer, I have been between 45 and 48 miles per week for the last 3 months (with every fourth week the "rest" week in the 30s) and have felt much less tired and less sore. It has been a very pleasant surprise to say the least...
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dredd
Member |
posted Aug-09-2007 10:37 AM
Interesting advice Jim and Tinman. I agree that 55-60 miles is not high mileage, just higher than I am used to. I am still cautious about pushing up to that level following knee cartilage surgery last year.
However I think will start to increase slowly and see how things go. Any thoughts on how quickly to go from 40 miles per week to maybe 50.Probably my biggest restriction will be time available, work, kids etc! Training twice some days sounds great. I often feel like getting out in the evenings after having done a morning run but again time limits this. Laundry on the other hand throws me back to when I was in college, smelly, damp gear never bothered me then! Not so appealing now but back then I was a rower (smelly bunch!) rather than a runner. dredd
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Jim24315
Cool Runner |
posted Aug-09-2007 11:24 AM
Hey Dredd,You probably mentioned it before, but if so I had forgotten. You are doing great for somewhat who had surgery so recently and I can certainly understand your taking a cautious approach. I don't consider myself to be very knowledgeable about this type of injury and am sure that you are in a much better position to know what to do than I would. Keep up the good work and stay in touch. Jim
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joev9
Cool Runner |
posted Aug-09-2007 12:33 PM
dredd, i hear you about the kids and work thing. i got up at 4:30 a.m. to get my 11 miles in today, got home had 15 minutes to shower and leave for work (breakfast was an egg and cheese bagel sandwich from D&D). quick hugs and kisses for the kids and wife and off i went. big thanks go out to my boss for scheduling me to be at a site at 7:00 a.m. on the day of my mid-week medium long run. thanks boss!!!![This message has been edited by joev9 (edited Aug-09-2007).]
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Dakota Ridgerunner
Cool Runner |
posted Aug-10-2007 11:35 AM
Jim and Norrin, I haven't been to this thread in a few weeks and it was a pleasant surprise to see that you guys made it. It's great to know that dedication and training smart really pay off.So the big question is, now what? For me, it was a switch to focusing on off-road triathlons this summer. The running has seriously paid off. I'm cutting up to 3.5 minutes off my run times from last year on the same courses (hilly, 8-10k trails). In a few weeks, I'm planning to do a popular one-mile race and see if I can set a new PR. And I might train for a fall half marathon with a goal of sub 1:30. Anyway, congrats again to you both!
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Jim24315
Cool Runner |
posted Aug-11-2007 06:07 AM
Thanks Dakota,The most important race for me on the horizon is Rock in Roll Half Marathon in San Jose on Oct. 14. I also have a 5k on Sep 23, and might do another 10k on Labor Day. For the half I am confident of running in 1:28's and think I have a chance of breaking into 1:27's. Sunday's 10k was my most important goal of the year and takes the self-imposed pressure off. Mainly I just want enjoy the rest of the year and see where my training takes me. Good luck to you in meeting all your future challenges. I'm sure you could go a lot faster with more focus on running. Jim
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norrin radd
Cool Runner |
posted Aug-12-2007 02:35 AM
What next is a good question. My experience here and with the sub-20 5k has been very positive. A medium term goal is a great motivator. But finding a suitable goal can be tricky. Too long a goal won't be very motivational at the start if it seems too distant and too short a goal will also not be too motivational if it seems inevitable.I'm currently considering two goals that will probably be 6 month-ish goals for me. I have Jim to thank (again) for suggesting the first - the sub-6 minute pace 5k. That's 18:39 and, for me, an age graded 73.88 (where my current best age grade is 71.83 for the 39:39 10k). I think this will be a good goal between the sub-19 that might (hopefully) be too short term and a sub-18 that is too long term. It's a substantial improvement on my current ability but is not inconceivable. The second goal I'm considering is a sub 1:24:25 half marathon. Again, this is pace based rather than time based. This is 6:26.2 pace - the pace necessary for a sub-20 5k or a sub-40 10k. Expanding this out to a sub-60 15k and a sub1:24:25 half marathon seems like a challenging but, again, not unbelievable goal. This would be an age graded 74.05 for me. John ------------------
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