posted Oct-09-2006 11:27 AM
This is my next-to-last training week before Wichita Marathon on October 22. Tapering has taken some getting used to--the amount of free time I now have that formerly was taken up by running has provided me extra time to read, play the piano and anything else I can do to not get anxious about whether or not I can pull off a 3:45 in Wichita.
A blast of Canadian air coming into America's mid-section later this week should make for some very nice running temps in Wichita, as long as it persists. Autumn is even in the air here in Texas.
My focus for most training runs now is to get intimately familiar with the feel of 8:38/mile. (Up till now most of my miles have been over or under that.) Also, I intend to work on not slowing down when I hydrate and eat gels; even carrying a water bottle and drinking on the run, I've noticed pace slow-downs in miles where I hydrate--this is what I want to eliminate.
posted Oct-09-2006 01:17 PM
I remember this spring a lot of controversy regarding the legitimacy of using "downhill" courses as Trials qualifiers. Well, my input after running one of the more notorious ones is to run one yourself before running your mouth! I drove the course the day before, and decided to go out evenly for 2:24 but run by feel not pace.
The weather couldn't have been more perfect...42F and calm at the start, and I don't think it broke 50 until I was in the closing miles. I had an elite start, so I had little pre-race stress as they picked my up at the hotel and had a room for us at the start. The race is one of the best organized races I have ever seen, a real pro job (run by former pro runners). I think there were so many porta-jons that there was no line until very close to the start.
There was one 2:15 guy and another 2:21 there that I recognized, maybe 9-10 elites total on the men's side.
The race was started with a big cannon, which was inherently cool. We took off, very easily with the starting dowhill. 3/4 of a mile in there was a ridiculously steep downhill, and I thought right away that if there were many more of those my quads were in trouble. The 2:15 guy opened a huge gap, planning to run 1:07:30 through half. I let all the other elites go at 1 mile, figuring I'd try to pick up whoever went out too hard. The race tilted down the mountain, and I ran the 4th and 5th miles in 5:04-5:12, trying to balance staying slow with not having to use too much quad effort to slow down. I was still falling back from the pack and in 7th place.
By 7 miles in, the race began to flatten out after loosing about 700ft of altitude but the damage was already done despite my efforts to take it easy. I could tell my legs were already in bad shape. By 11 miles, my hamstrings, especially the left, were completely shot. My calves followed suit a mile later. I could not get in a good rhythem, and felt inefficient and could hear my feet slapping the ground. I don't know if it was the constant slow downhill or having selected slightly heavier shoes (DS Racers) than I was used to.
I crossed the half in 1:11:57, right where I had planned to be. By now the pack in front had stopped pulling away and were about a minute up, but I wasn't pulling anyone back. My splits started to suffer; my last sub-5:40 was mile 14. My legs felt as beat up as they ever had at any point in a marathon, so I started doing 5:50s trying to save a PR. It was no use. By mile 18, I could no longer bend my left leg and my quads were gone too. I shuffled on dilligently because a) if I was too late my wife would start to worry, and b) I was still in position to win prize money. I was passed about mile 20 by one guy and at 21 by another as my splits deteriorated to 6:30s. Mile 23 had two big uphills (7:04); this was a relief as they were slow but hurt A LOT less than the downhills.
At the top (marker 24) I saw I was a little over a minute back of the next guy in front of me, and knew I was now in a position to finish no matter what. Additionally, though I thought I was 9th I was now told I was 7th so I assumed people had dropped out and I was still in the money (top 7). I put in a surge, and ran each of the last 2 miles low-6 trying to move up a spot. The guy was coming back to me, but I ran out of real estate and finished 7th by about 20sec and in 2:33:49.
The frustrating thing about the race was that after worrying for the last month about my fitness, it never came into play. I ran the entire race well within myself, and the last half I'm sure my heartrate was never above the mid-150s as my legs being hamburger was the limiting factor. Unlike when I did 2:28 on a flat course this spring, I felt great the day of the race and strong (fitness-wise) throughout.
For me, at least, downhill courses are NOT fast. I'm in the search for a nice, flat course in the March-April timeframe withing driving distance of Mich/Indiana. I give Steamtown a thumbs-up, however, for organization (as many volunteers as participants!) and the experience. I never expected such crowd support from such a small marathon run through such a rural and small town area. Despite my disappointment with having the course get the better of me, I could still enjoy the scenery and support.
I was not alone. I saw the 2:15er in the hotel after the race and found out he'd dropped out at 21 miles, with the same issues as me.
posted Oct-09-2006 01:55 PM
Andy, I am sorry you did not have the day you hoped for at Steamtown. I agree with all the positive things you said regarding race organization. This was very well run. Tons of volunteers and lots of crowd support for a mid-size marathon.
I tried to find you at the award ceremony after the race, but I couldn't figure out which guy you were. I was still in pretty rough shape at that point, so that is more challenging than it should be.
I don't have the points of comparison that you do (being my first marathon) but I really enjoyed the race. I went out a little conservatively and avoided pounding my quads. I am pretty sore today but I expected that. I live in a hilly area, so I think my legs are pretty used to some pounding.
Southern Man
------------------ We're on a road to nowhere. Come on along.
posted Oct-09-2006 02:08 PM
Sorry to hear Andy - I saw the results and figured it was a killer.
Weird week for me M 10 (4x1 mile LAT)am / 5 lunch / 6 pm T 16am / 4 lunch / 5 pm W 7am / 4pm TH 5 FR 4 SA 4 SU 50 mile trail race (Hilly which was OK, but I spent most of the race looking at my feet trying to avoid all the rocks)
Total 120
The race will put me down for awhile - They have not found my quads yet - They left me on the iceage trail early in the race. Its funny - I ran / walked / fell a few times 50 miles and ended up 2 minutes out of 1st place.
Congrats on finishing a tough race and getting in on the race cash. Sorry to hear it was so painful - my legs were hurting just reading your report!
While it is a little farther than you probably want, Green Bay puts on a nice, mostly flat race. There is a small hill around mile 7 and then a bridge at mile 20, but otherwise pretty flat. Well put together and reasonably small field. The coolest thing was that they had chip timing mats at every mile (first marathon to do this) and they put all your info together for you post race. Check this out: http://my.cellcomgreenbaymarathon.com/bib8
runinlaw--thanks for the suggestion on Green Bay. I know an elite who has run it so I'll get his take on it too. Right now I'm just going to take a couple weeks off and take my time getting back to full training to give my body time to recover and (hopefully) be able to train like I did last winter.
Southern Man - Glad to hear your experience was decent, I was unaware that was your first one. I was totally delirious after my first so I hope you were better than that. Recuperate, and hopefully we'll see you on the Spring Marathon Thread when I get around to starting it soon.
posted Oct-09-2006 03:19 PM
Sorry, runninlaw, it was jmkmom with the psoas issues. Shows you how bloody distracted I am right now (marathon Sunday, wedding one week later).
Andy, I commend you for your strong finish despite the hamburger legs. I had similar issues at Boston one year, and it's hell. And you were still in the money!
Southern Man, great job! I plan to scrutinize your report later, because I'm going for a 3:15 on Sunday.
posted Oct-09-2006 03:36 PM
Way to go, everyone. Andy: Condolences on the rough result, but congrats on sticking it out and finishing in the money. Southern Man: Condolences and congrats as well. You did, indeed, miss it by that much. But you ran a good race, remarkably well paced for a first-time finisher.
I had a decent week:
M: DNR T: 5 w/5x600m @ 5K pace (2:42) W: 12 T: DNR F: DNR S: 11.3 w/15K race at faster pace than the 10K two weeks ago S: 17
Total 45.3 miles. Less than I wanted because I had to cut one workout short and ditch another one, but I got in all the key runs.
The 12-miler Wednesday and the 17 on Sunday both surprised me: I've been struggling to get my training runs down around 9:30 pace, but on both those days I was hitting 9:00 miles without much trouble, in 80-degree weather. (This is all awfully frustrating since I was in much better shape less than 2 years ago.) Saturday's race was a nice surprise too; I was expecting 1:13 or so but finished in 1:10:36. Probably the best I've planned and executed a race in some time: Slow at the start, hard at the finish, steady in between, handle the hills just right. If marathon day goes as well I'll be a happy tater.
I ran with you both yesterday, although at a much slower pace. I am very sorry that neither of you hit your qualifing times. At the same, time I understand the hell you went through. May we all have better luck next time.
posted Oct-09-2006 04:36 PM
I've always found that on my long runs and towards the latter miles that the downhill always hurt more than the flats or gradual uphills. The pounding you put on your legs, you find yourself trying to hold back which in turn alters your running style and causes more problems. Given me a flat or slight up hill any day.
Monday: recovery after Sunday Half-Marthon. 4 miles, cut short when knee was sore. Tuesday: Tempo workout. 4 X 5 mins. @ sub-6 pace and 1 min. break. 30 Mins. easy. 4 x 5 mins. again. Felt very relaxed through the end, but spent. Wednesday: 7.5 miles, pretty relaxed. Thursday: Day Off. Friday: Work Late. No run Saturday: Very nice trail run, 10.5 miles, feeling very relaxed. Sunday: 20 miles at Rockefeller. Thought it was relatively flat, but lots of short ups and down, and struggled towards the end, and the hills, even the small ones, hurt towards end. But a bit of a concern because felt slight twinge over the last couple of miles on whatever muscle it is at the top of the quad, towards the groin. But able to pick up the tempo over final 1.5 miles.
------------------ "You know how to run, don't you? You just put one foot in front of the other -- and go."
posted Oct-09-2006 08:45 PM
Wow, great report Southern Man, and congrats on a well- run race! That's a great time for a first time marathon. Andy, so sorry to hear that it just wasn't your day. I think you did a great job gutting it out and still finishing with a time that we mortals only dream of attaining. You certainly have my respect. Do you have any thoughts on why your legs did not feel as well as you hoped or was it just one of those unexplainable things?
quote:Originally posted by 92heelgrad: Wow, great report Southern Man, and congrats on a well- run race! That's a great time for a first time marathon. Andy, so sorry to hear that it just wasn't your day. I think you did a great job gutting it out and still finishing with a time that we mortals only dream of attaining. You certainly have my respect. Do you have any thoughts on why your legs did not feel as well as you hoped or was it just one of those unexplainable things?
Everybody said "run easy on the hills, don't bank time". I did that, I think. However, when you're trying to run in the 2:2x range, no matter how easy you take it you're still running 5:10-5:30/mile. In retrospect, I think that it isn't necessarily the effort level which spares some people on that course but also just the speed you're running at. In other words, a 2:25 guy can take it very easy and even go for a positive split but at 5:30/mile he's going to get pounded more than a 6:30/mile guy no matter what he does.
The race director just emailed us that the Steamtown field, as a whole, just improved on their already-US-leading field average time. However it's still about 3:55....what makes a course fast for 4 hr people might not be so good for the 2:20-2:40 crowd.
A few of the elites ran well on the course, so it's not like it gets everyone. However, I'm fairly certain the bulk of us ran much slower than we had planned. For certain, times were not faster than would be expected from any of the elites on a fast course so therefore the downhill did not provide any advantage.
In my case, specifically, I think it was mostly that I live in the flatlands and just didn't toughen my legs up enough on downhills. I have done well in Boston twice so I underestimated the requirement for specific training. Bulk mileage also toughens the legs, and it probably didn't help that due to being over-peak I didn't run high mileage in the last month of pre-taper training, so my legs might have been "soft" from that. Finally, I'm putting some blame on the shoes. I picked slightly bulkier ones with a higher heel than my usual minimal 7oz flats, hoping it would help save me on the downhills. In retrospect I think racing in a slightly higher shoe than I'm used to was a bad idea and I felt like no matter what I did I was slapping the ground harder than I needed to. I had blisters on the very back of my heels at the bottom, like from landing on my heel and sliding forward in the shoe under my weight during braking on the downhills.
posted Oct-09-2006 09:29 PM
Southern Man - Wow how great and how crushing all at the same time. The real sign of a champion is how he responds in the face of diversity - You know you have it within your ability - What you gonna do now???? I vote for working even harder and blowing it away !!
quote:Originally posted by AndyHass: I remember this spring a lot of controversy regarding the legitimacy of using "downhill" courses as Trials qualifiers.
I was one of those and will stand by those comments, although I'm not as adamant as I was a few months ago. The numbers say that they are faster, and I assume that is the reason you ran it. However, they do have their "downside" so to speak.
Before you get all ticked off, I do have respect for you as a runner and also for your knowledge about training. That being said, I didn't think you were going to run your race. You said as much with all your commentary leading up to it. I think you crossed over the overtraining line not long after you ran your breakthrough 10k on the track.
One post that stood out was the one where you complained about not being able to raise your heart rate even though you felt like you were running fast. From what I've read this is a clear sign of overtraining. "The tired muscles are telling the heart what to do..." or something like that, is what one article said. When you combine that post with some of your other comments, the evidence was pretty strong. The Crim race was another good example. I think you knew that you weren't ready for Steamtown, but were hoping for some magic on race day.
On fresh legs you might have really been able to take advantage of those downhills rather than have them do you in. Consider yourself fortunate that you can bomb and still run a 2:33.
Hopefully you will let yourself recover before you rush into another one.
Good luck
[This message has been edited by Jim24315 (edited Oct-10-2006).]
posted Oct-10-2006 11:40 AM
Nice job, guys. I concur the lack of 'easiness' of downhill courses. They're great for short races, but tough on long stuff.
Continuing on with my 'fasttrack to marathon' training plan, I'm 7 1/2 weeks in...and officially into taper . Yesterday's was pretty easy, I did 20ish minutes so I could fit in a potty stop before the long leg of the run, then ran 90 minutes out and 90 back and was actually a minute quicker on return...somewhere between 22 and 23 miles. Pace was very easy. Another week and a half of normal stuff, then start cutting it all back.
posted Oct-10-2006 01:13 PM
I would take a 2:33, downhill or otherwise. Really, that is just an incredible performance, and not something you can get on talent alone. I only have my limited experience to draw from, and 3 marathons is just not enough to know why you get dead legs on marathon day. Last year at Chicago I felt much the same way Andy described feeling, albeit at a much slower finishing time (3:40). My legs did not have snap or lightness to them, and yet my breathing and heart rate felt fine to me. Like Andy I was able to maintain goal pace for most of the race before having to slow down with calf cramps, and it cost me about ten minutes off my goal time.
That's why I asked the question. Is it the taper that leads to this, too much or too little? Is it just the cumulative effect of overtraining? My suspicion is that it is overtraining, and that even a restful taper cannot put it all back together again.
posted Oct-10-2006 07:49 PM
"One post that stood out was the one where you complained about not being able to raise your heart rate even though you felt like you were running fast. From what I've read this is a clear sign of overtraining. "The tired muscles are telling the heart what to do..." or something like that, is what one article said. When you combine that post with some of your other comments, the evidence was pretty strong. The Crim race was another good example. I think you knew that you weren't ready for Steamtown, but were hoping for some magic on race day."
Well, you're kind of taking things out of context across many months of training. The HR issue was in a ONE MILE race....hardly something I was training for, and Tinman, I believe, gave a decent explanation for why that could happen. The Crim, a terrible performance, was sandwiched between 2 of my best long runs ever and followed a few days when I admitted I let the dieting bug get the better of me (I ran the second half of a 20-miler 3min faster (sub-55) the next week). If we are to be fair, I could show you 3-4 workouts before my nice 10K that had me very worried that I was tired and overtrained then, yet look what happened.
Bottom line, when I tapered I ran mile repeats at about 5:30 at 163-164 BPM. That's only 3sec slower than I've ever done them at that HR. Not that any of this matters, as aerobic conditioning had little to do with the race as my legs would likely have ended up the same at any reasonable speed.
I believe I'm past peak, which is not the same thing as over-trained. Over-training is a condition where additional training results in negative results. I'm just at a point where I'm taking longer to recover and not getting as big of benefits as I used to. If I rest a couple days I can still run well...this would not be so if I were overtrained.
Do I have a tendency to train a little to hard? Probably. Does my body just stop recovering well after X number of months of serious training? Maybe. Was I in prime conditioning for Steamtown? NO. However, if I was in 2:23-2:24 shape this spring when I peaked as I think I was, and this course was such a rocket, 2:26-2:27 conditioning should have gotten me 2:24, right?
Searching results of those in front of me, if appears at least half of the guys have run faster on flatter courses and the other half were no more than 1-2min slower in recent results. Given the absolute perfect weather conditions, the results hardly indicate that a rocket was strapped to their back as some seem to suggest about such courses. You should really try one before making up your mind; I ran surprisingly slow down many of the downhill miles as it takes more effort to keep from hurtling down the incline than one would think. The course chewed and spit out more than me.
edited to add ---- Do not confuse the "hamburger legs" I experienced this week with "dead legs" or "heavy legs" usually described in marathons (like heel92grad above). Dead legs or heavy legs indicate tiredness (such as inadequate rest and/or overtraining) or, when experienced specifically at the end of the race, going out too fast and bonking due to lack of available fuel. "Hamburger legs" indicates exactly what the name implies....muscles full of microtears from excessive pounding. Two very different things (I've done both). There was a study I read once that implied fully 1/3 of the energy of running went to stabilizing the muscle vibrations perpendicular to the direction of running force (ie energy wasted stopping left-to-right vibrations rather than contracting the muscle). Radcliffe wears those funny socks because they help stabilize calves and, theoretically, reduce the amount of energy necessary for said stabilization. In this race, it was hamburger legs that were the problem....the result of excessive pounding. Dead/Heavy legs are conditioning and/or fuel-related. If I lived around more paved hills I could have toughened myself up some...that would have helped.
In support of this, while my legs were thrashed I never finished a marathon feeling like I had so much fuel left. I never got even a hint of the "bonk" feeling, which I did get in my 2:28 even though I also sub-performed there. I could have kept running 6:30s for miles longer from how I felt.
[This message has been edited by AndyHass (edited Oct-10-2006).]
[This message has been edited by AndyHass (edited Oct-10-2006).]
posted Oct-10-2006 08:08 PM
day late and dollar short .. but here's what my week looked like last week ... 2nd full week of my taper:
Monday - 3 easy and quick Tues - off Wed - 3 x 1600 at 10K pace (well, a little faster, lol) with a mile w-up and cd Thur - 9 Friday off Sat - supposed to do 5 but just ran around some at daughter's XC meet Sun - 11 miles on hills ... and it was HOT (over 76F) in comparison with the 50's and low 60's as of late!
I've already visited the race reports ... good job folks! Happy tapering to those of us running in the next week or two ... and good luck with injury free training to everybody!
posted Oct-10-2006 08:46 PM
Andy, I am amused (although that is probably not the right word) at reading the suggestion of over training and your response re peaking early, sub par course, etc.. I am in the opposite boat as you - a few days pre race as opposed to a few days post (not to mention WAY slower and less trained)...
With that said, I am in taper madness and reading this forum and of course second guessing my training, mileage, pace, speed work, worrying about weather, hydration, etc. What is comes down to are so many different aspects of a race that need to come together. You had perfect weather, but not the best course for you....obviously you were in awesome shape, but didn't hit where you wanted to.....Taper Madness seems almost as prevalant as Critique Madness Post Race . . .
It goes back to the marathon is hard to nail down. Look at this training thread. Everyone who has posted regularly here has had some seriously good training and MOST people have not made their goals to date. Of course this is discouraging to me since I am up next but it also makes it sound crazy to me that a sub-par performance could be nailed down to one simple reason. It could have just not been your day. I had an awesome day yesterday where my run couldn't have felt easier even though I was sluggish all day...today I was looking forward to my run and it was work....We all know this pattern well . . . The most experienced runners know it best.
I know you already know all of this and don't need to hear it from a slow runner like me, but from my timing and my perspective, I thought it was relevant.
On another note, it is girls' weekend coming up with a few male crashers! Good luck this weekend everybody! I don't know about you all, but it is going to be COLD for me!!! I am really looking forward to race reports! And once I get this one out of the way I will be able to join Spring Trainers with an appropriate race!
[This message has been edited by runninlaw (edited Oct-10-2006).]
I've never run a downhill marathon, unless you count Napa's 350 ft. as one. I based my comments on two 10k races I ran back in the 80's and hundreds of out and back training routes I've run. In the 10k's I was more than a minute faster than in others I ran right around the same time period, and I ran a lot of 10k's in those days. More recently I've run a few out and back courses many times that the are downhill on the return. I always go faster on the return, even after I've pushed the uphills going out and relaxed coming back. On one particular 7-miler it averages out to almost a minute per mile faster on the return.
I will agree that the type of downhill that gives you most of the drop over a short distance doesn't help that much, and if it comes early in a long race it could work against you. It's the long, gradual ones that can really make a positive difference.
In any case, I don't have as strong feelings about this topic as I did a few months ago. I've heard many different takes on this that have caused me to have more of an open mind, and it is true that I've never run a marathon on one of those courses.
No matter how you look at it, you have proven that you can run fast on a standard, certified course, so I was never questioning your accomplishments. The point of my last post as much as anything was to see what your response would be to the overtraining theory. Although I don't post much on comp wire, I read the posts fairly regularly and got the impression that you weren't at your best. Was it because of overtraining? You would know better than I.
posted Oct-10-2006 09:17 PM
"I know you already know all of this and don't need to hear it from a slow runner like me, but from my timing and my perspective, I thought it was relevant."
Faster doesn't mean I know everything better, I obviously managed to mess up at least a couple times this year (though that comes with the territory). Self-coaching causes an amount of loss of self-insight. So all comments appreciate
What I can tell you about the taper is just to stop thinking. You've done the work, everything you second-guess and stress about now is more likely to hurt than help you. Stress will cause you to lose sleep, release harmful stress hormones, etc etc. I know it's really hard, but if you can just accept that you've done the prep and what will happen will happen, you will increase your chances for a positive outcome. I can now sleep in the days before a marathon because I don't over-think anymore; that helps!! If the weather is off, the course if off, you can't change it now. Good luck and looking forward to the report.
posted Oct-11-2006 06:54 AM
Jim, I'm not saying elevation loss can't be helpful...I'm sure there is some level that is (maybe a few hundred feet?). I'm interested to see the results of the Inland Empire Marathon in December, as it loses even more than Steamtown but in a more gradual fashion. Maybe it'll be gradual enough to be beneficial. I'll totally agree with it helping in 10Ks....that's about what it took before I started to feel the ill effects. I'm already planning the comeback over the winter, hopefully I learned something....
posted Oct-09-2006 11:27 AM
. Yesterday's was pretty easy, I did 20ish minutes so I could fit in a potty stop before the long leg of the run, then ran 90 minutes out and 90 back and was actually a minute quicker on return...somewhere between 22 and 23 miles. Pace was very easy. Another week and a half of normal stuff, then start cutting it all back.
