posted Sep-25-2006 11:46 AM
WI MTP - great race report and congrats on reaching your time goal. I am still amazed at people that can recall their marathon's with such vivid detail! Enjoy the recovery and down time... you've definitely earned it!
This was my last hard week before the taper and the first part was a bit of recovery after several hard efforts at Reach the Beach. I feel like everything is finally coming together and the longer runs are becoming more comfortable, especially judging from my avg. heart rate.
52 miles total. Mon - AM: 4M @ 8:22 PM: 4.5M @ 8:53, both were nice easy runs on trails that felt great
Tue - 8M total, including intervals. 2M w/u 1M (5:59), 2M (12:06), 1M (5:51), 3:30 RI 2M c/d Pace was rock solid on these intervals and I was surprised how comfortable a 6:00 mile feels now. 4 months ago, I had trouble keeping this pace for a 5K
Wed - 5.3M @ 8:30, a little sore after track work but felt much better by the end of the run.
Thu - 10M @ 7:50. Best midweek medium long run! HR held pretty steady at 140 (74% max) and I never felt the need to stop. Pace held pretty steady even though the 2nd half of the loop is all up hill.
Fri - off
Sat - 20M @ 7:51. Most comfortable 20M to date. Ran along the marathon course for Bay State. Originally going to do MP for the 2nd half, but decided against it because of Reach the Beach. Again, HR held very steady at 140 for the 1st 18M of the run. In the past, I would bonk at around mile 16-17 of long runs, but this time there was no noticeable change up until half a mile from the end. Took no fluids or gels during the run. Huge confidence booster for me!
Taper begins in earnest. I have one more semi-hard effort at the Apple Harvest Ramble 10 miler. Instead of racing it, I'm going to hold MP or MP-10 sec the whole race and gauge how I feel at the end.
[This message has been edited by wayfool (edited Sep-25-2006).]
[This message has been edited by wayfool (edited Sep-25-2006).]
posted Sep-25-2006 02:38 PM
Nice runs all. Great job WI MTP!
This week I was actually able to hit all my workouts. It's been a bit of a scheduling nightmare lately. Also had some nice cool weather.
M: DNR T: 6.5 w/5x600 @ (what I thought was) 5K pace W: 12.5 T: DNR F: 4.2 easy w/6x100m strides S: 10.2 including 10K in 47:18, faster than I expected; adjusting 5K pace for upcoming intervals S: 17
posted Sep-25-2006 04:19 PM
Average mileage week for me totalling 49 miles at around a 6:35 pace. Got a 13 miler in on Sunday, but was a bit stiff and fatigued (still today, I think it is time to break out the new shoes as both current sets of trainers are pushing 500 miles).
Planning for about 50 miles this week and then on travel in the Washington DC area (hope to get in some good miles in the evenings as I will be without my family).
Good job on the race results WI and Dr. Wu.
Sorry to hear about the injuries to our fellow distance runners.
Good luck to this weekend's racers (and those in your taper, resist the itch to run to much!).
quote:Originally posted by TD Runner: Are you sure you think sub 2:30 is the right goal? I'm not trying to be a downer, but based on your workouts, it looks a bit overly optimistic. Over-optimism can lead to very painful marathons.
Why do you assume that its too optimistic? Because I run so slow on my easy days??
I have a 10k pr of 31:55, and a mile time of 4:16. I have run a 30k on a hilly and windy day at 1:44.46 (5:37pace)
I have also done lactate test at 2.0mmol/l at my 90%maxHR Based on my recent work out on sunday, at 88% maxHR that was 5:39 pace for that last 5k. I think im in that range to hit or go under 2:30.
[This message has been edited by rivas (edited Sep-25-2006).]
posted Sep-25-2006 04:55 PM
I haven't checked in on this thing in a while..but my training for Chicago is going pretty well...maybe not as on cue as I'd like for it to be, but I did a tune up 10 miler last weekend and I didn't run quiet as fast as I wanted to, but considering the course I was happy to get away with what I ran. The long runs are giong better than they've ever been for any marathon, so at this point, I'm happy with where I"m at, and by Chicago, I feel that I will be ready to roll!
quote:Originally posted by rivas: Why do you assume that its too optimistic? Because I run so slow on my easy days??
I have a 10k pr of 31:55, and a mile time of 4:16. I have run a 30k on a hilly and windy day at 1:44.46 (5:37pace)
I have also done lactate test at 2.0mmol/l at my 90%maxHR Based on my recent work out on sunday, at 88% maxHR that was 5:39 pace for that last 5k. I think im in that range to hit or go under 2:30.
[This message has been edited by rivas (edited Sep-25-2006).]
88% max over 5K is one thing, it is a whole different story to run at 88% over 26.2. Trust me, the times you just stated indicate a 2:30, but you are most likely at top end AT at 88%.
Just my opinion. Might as well go for it. Who knows? I might be biased becase of my own HR readings in similar workouts.
[This message has been edited by TD Runner (edited Sep-25-2006).]
I know several people, that have been trained the right way, and have run a marathon at 88-90% maxHR. If you cant handle a 5k over 90%maxHR then your aerobic system is very weak.
I have already done 4x5k repeats w/ 3min rest at 90% maxHR. At an avg of 5:49 in 85f with high dewpoints, 2 months ago.
My maxHR is 209. I ran that 30k (18.6mi) at an avg of 191bpm - 91%maxHR. A marathon can be run successfully with little accumulation of lactate. Usually at 2.5 +/- .05 mmol/l.
I'm not trying to start a debate, but I think you are right when you say that you may be biased according to your own heartrate readings. Which is not a good idea when compare individuals.
posted Sep-25-2006 10:57 PM
My week looked like this:
Monday off Tuesday - 12 Wednesday - 9 / last half at tempo Thursday - 5, quicker, ended up being tempo too Fri & Sat off - had a sore throat and worried a cold coming on with a 20 mile training race scheduled for Sunday Sunday - 20 miler - goal of 8:30 miles but finished with 2:36:47 (approx 7:50 pace) ... felt good and still do ...
Today (monday, 25th) is the first day of my taper for Columbus Marathon on the 15th of October ... if weather is agreeable I think I'll be able to hit 3:30 ... but this is my first and my longest run to date was a 22 miler, so I may be too ambitious ... but I feel confident and ready for the challenge ...
Taper ... yippee!
I'm sorry some of you have had to drop out of your planned marathons and hope you heal up and run another soon ... it's disappointing to train so hard and then see it slip away ... take care of yourselves, fully heal, and fix any imbalances you have and hopefully you'll come back stronger than ever!
Twinmoms ... your fall just stinks! So sorry ... hope your surgery is not too painful and you recover quickly!
Southernman ... I will echo the others ... thank you for doing this thread ... it's a great thing and I appreciate the time you took to put it together for all of us ...
posted Sep-26-2006 09:13 AM
rivas - I hope that you and all the other Chicago entrants get a good day to run a marathon. Its the right course to run a fast race and with decent weather I think its gonna be a fun Chicago this year. I know that with the additional USA Top 50 bonus $$ and OTQ efforts in full effect that it is attracting some additional talent.
posted Sep-26-2006 03:08 PM
another step foward in the chicago training....22 miles today @ 6:19 pace. the first 10 felt a little rough, then I started to feel good, but the last mile or so I was drained....but I'm still really excited about Chicago.
posted Sep-26-2006 04:05 PM
Sportigirl, don't you think you're way ahead of a 3:30 marathon? I mean a 20-miler at that pace, w/no taper suggests you can kick the crap out of 3:30.
quote:Originally posted by martinjames: Sportigirl, don't you think you're way ahead of a 3:30 marathon? I mean a 20-miler at that pace, w/no taper suggests you can kick the crap out of 3:30.
Agreed. You are going to kill 3:30. I bet you are closer to 3:15. That is awesome.
posted Sep-26-2006 05:09 PM
martinjames and runinlaw ... thanks for the votes of confidence ... I am trying not to be over-ambitious since I've never dealt with the proverbial wall by going more than 22 miles ... but I am hopeful that I might do better than 3:30 on marathon day ... my 20-miler was run at 8:00 pace for at least the first 11-12 miles and then I picked up some ... and ended with the average of around 7:50 pace ... if I make 7:50 my steady pace I wouldn't have to go whatever faster paces I ended up doing to bring those 8:00 paces down on Sunday, right? So, if I aim to run the bulk of the marathon at 7:50,even paced, and if I feel strong at 17-18 mile mark perhaps pick it up a tad ... and if I still have some kick at 22-23 then I could race it in on a negative split .... and if I find I over-judged my ability I will still have a lot of time to painfully trod in and maybe still get a BQ time of 3:45 ...
I did do an 18 miler LR on Labor Day at 7:52 pace .. that surprised the heck outta me since it was the first real LR over 14 miles I'd done in almost 2 months at that point in time ... so that pace is something I am apparently comfortable with, at least to some degree ...
I think weather and my health will be the most influencial factors come marathon day ... I'm going to be happy so long as I finish it but it'd be really cool to challenge myself and see if I am capable of what the prediction charts guess :-)
I'm still really happy about Sunday ... it went so much better than I'd hoped for ... pretty awesome!
posted Sep-26-2006 05:52 PM
SportiGirl, out of curiousity, what do the prediction charts suggest?
The wall is a nutritional thing (mostly). As long as properly eat and hydrate the days before the race and then take in your gatorade, water and gels of choice during the race, you *should* be ok. And of course not go out too fast.
But I hear you if it is your first one and you don't want to get overzealous and blow it. I did that for my first and was really happy I did even though the predictors said I was easily in line for a BQ. I do, however, often wonder what I could have done as in some aspects I think I was in better shape then as I am now with number 2 in the pipeline.
Whatever you do - good luck - those are some incredible training runs.
posted Sep-26-2006 05:58 PM
Sportigirl, I'm in a similar boat as you. I ran a 1:11:40 10 miler and a 1:35:10 half during my peak 60 mile training weeks. I'll also be running my first marathon in Columbus. I have been thinking way too hard about what pace I want to run and I've finally decided that I'm going to go for the 7:50's and aim for a 3:25. Like you, I figure I'll at least have built a solid cushion to hopefully bq at 3:40 if I'm having a less than stellar day.
So Southernman, please put me down for Columbus and a 3:25 goal. Thanks!!
posted Sep-27-2006 08:18 PM
runinlaw ... I mainly use the equivalency chart in my favorite racing book but when I've checked online predictors they give basically the same numbers ...
my best 10K, the only 15K and only 10 mile race I've done this summer all indicate a predicted marathon finish of between 3:23-3:25
but my less-than-stellar (but still proud of it) time for my only 1/2 marathon was 1:41:17 ... I had expected better since I'd gone faster than that on easy training runs but it was quite humid that day, so? ... anyways ... based on the 1/2 time the predictor has me pegged around 3:38 and change ...
... so I have been staying very conservative with my goal pace but after how well Sunday went and how little ill effect it's had (lack of serious soreness or tiredness) I have decided to be more aggressive and give it the best I truly think I am capable of and hope it's not a newbie mistake on my part ...
thereshegoes ... our times (aside from my 1/2) are very much alike ... I imagine we will see each other quite a bit in a couple Sundays!!! :-)
posted Sep-28-2006 08:25 AM
Thereshegoes, welcome to the trainer's thread!
Sportigrl, I think it sounds like you have a good plan. I have a feeling you will get your BQ (probably "easily" - whatever that is in a marathon) and have a really fun race. Then you will probably smash your time next time around.
It is fun that you and thereshegoes are around the same pace and doing the same race - maybe you can pace each other. Whatever happens - good luck to you both! I hope you are enjoying the start of your tapers!
posted Sep-28-2006 09:54 AM
I've got a question about gels/Gu's/etc. I've never used them. I drink Gatorade on my long runs (Just did 21.85 with 42oz of Gatorade). I don't think I've ever hit the "wall" on a run. I've felt tired, sore, but I expect that after pounding the pavement for 2.5+ hours. From my waist up, I felt fine like I was jogging.
quote:Originally posted by dcv2002: I've got a question about gels/Gu's/etc. I've never used them. I drink Gatorade on my long runs (Just did 21.85 with 42oz of Gatorade). I don't think I've ever hit the "wall" on a run. I've felt tired, sore, but I expect that after pounding the pavement for 2.5+ hours. From my waist up, I felt fine like I was jogging.
Should I experiment on my next LR with Gel's??
There are two reasons to try gels in preference to sport drinks such as Gatorade, IMHO.
First, some folks have trouble digesting sport drinks on the run. I'm one of those. Most sport drinks and a few gels give me stomach cramps during a race.
Second, gels are easier to carry. You still need water, but you can refill a water bottle lots of places; finding more sport drink during a run can be a challenge.
It sounds as if you're doing OK with Gatorade, so there's no need to switch, but it can't hurt to give gels a try and see if you like them.
quote:Originally posted by GreenMan: There are two reasons to try gels in preference to sport drinks such as Gatorade, IMHO.
First, some folks have trouble digesting sport drinks on the run. I'm one of those. Most sport drinks and a few gels give me stomach cramps during a race.
Second, gels are easier to carry. You still need water, but you can refill a water bottle lots of places; finding more sport drink during a run can be a challenge.
It sounds as if you're doing OK with Gatorade, so there's no need to switch, but it can't hurt to give gels a try and see if you like them.
Thanks, I know you're running NYCM also, so there will be Gatorade every two miles which should be enough for me. I don't plan on taking my Fuel Belt (which I use) with me. I can't wait to not have to do a long run without lugging that thing around. My hips, stomach muscles are always slightly sore from wearing that thing for 2.5+ hours. I have another 22 next Sunday, I'll pick up some gels for that run and see how it goes.
Your ability to hold sub-8:00 pace on your long run certainly suggests that 3:25 is a reasonable goal, but I do want to sound a small note of caution. The marathon has earned its reputation at least in part through its ability to make hash of even the best-thought-through plans.
My PRs of the last 9 months--19:41 5K, 40:48 10K, 1:31:56 half marathon--suggest that a 3:30 marathon in early September would be easy for me, and a 3:20 a reasonable goal. In fact, some calculators (Daniels' VDOT, I think) claim that I should be able to run 3:11-3:12. (I'd run 2:53 nineteen years earlier, in my last marathon, as a much younger man.)
I trained through a long hot Mississippi summer, averaged 49 mpw for 12 weeks, ran two 20 milers and two 18 milers, ran a 15 miler with the last 10 miles @ 8:00 pace. I tapered, carb loaded, and got pretty good weather (low 60s) on race day. I thought that I'd be able to hold 8:00 pace for 20 miles without much problem and run 7:30s from there on in.
Still, I hit the wall just after 21 miles, after averaging 8:08 pace for 20. Limped home at 9:10 pace for a final time of 3:39.
No matter how good you're feeling and how desperately you're hoping for a particular time, it pays to be conservative. Having run very large negative splits in my first marathon, a 3:06, way back when, I've learned that it is possible to hit 20 miles with a full head of steam and run those last six miles hard, mowing down dozens, even hundreds of runners who didn't quite discipline themselves early on and are paying a stiff price. I am SO glad that my marathoning career began that way--with a mad rush to the finish under a full head of steam, with nothing like the wall looming its head. It left me completely psyched to optimize the next time around--to try a slightly faster early pace and play the edges that one plays when one is trying to achieve the fastest possible time.
This time around, even running what seemed like a sure-bet conservative race, I discovered that the marathon owned me.
It sounds as though your training has dealt you a full hand. Slightly less, pace wise, is a whole lot more later on. Best of luck.
[This message has been edited by KudzuRunner (edited Sep-28-2006).]
posted Sep-28-2006 01:41 PM
Well, I'm doing some "recovery walking/running" this week - walk/jog 3 miles last night, will slow jog 4 miles tomorrow night, and then knock down 5 or 6 miles at 8:00 pace on Saturday.
But I gotta tell you, I'm just dreading/hating every step since my flameout... I've always thought of Chicago as my "backup BQ" in case I didn't make it at Quad Cities - but I'm just so dejected with what was a *great* 23 miles that then rapidly unraveled.
Sorry for bringing down the room gang, but my head's not in the right place now.
Need to get back that confident "eye of the tiger" I had a week ago (with a little more smarts on hydrating)...
Oh yeah - you can put my "in the books" time down as 3:42:05 - that's "chip time".
kestrou
[This message has been edited by kestrou (edited Sep-28-2006).]
posted Sep-28-2006 02:26 PM
Kestrou- That is a horror story worthy of Halloween! You can get it at Chicago though, it's clear you are fit enough. I will be somewhere close by myself, as I am going to try to hit the BQ (3:20) at Chicago. I'll be in the Preferred Start 2 group
Sportigirl- I had Kudzu's experience when I ran Chicago last year. I ran my last 20 miler @ 7:52, was dead-on pace to hit 3:30 at mile 20, and then BAM, calf cramps hit me like a Lee Harvey Oswald shot. I felt fine everywhere except in my calves. I had to slow down the final miles except for the final mile that I was able to sprint, and I finished with 3:40. The moral? I have absolutely no idea other than it wasn't my day and perhaps a 20 miler is not totally predictive of what I can do over 26.2. I say stick with the plan to hit 3:30, if you feel good late then pick up the pace. Good Luck!
As for my training, Chicago is getting closer, this is the final week before I start my three week taper. Last week was scheduled to be an easier recovery week with this current week being my peak mileage week at 80 miles. So far, so good.
posted Sep-25-2006 11:46 AM
