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Yasso 800's

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smrnr
Cool Runner
posted Jan-21-2006 12:15 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for smrnr     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hey what do you guys think of this workout as a predictor of marathon time? Meaning, the time in seconds of one's 800mx10 intervals = one's marathon time in hours. I think it's kind of bull, but people swear by it. Anyone seen this to be true with their marathon times? What kind of mileage are we talking? How about recovery between intervals? These things I would imagine would have to be a factor as well, no?

The reason I am asking is that I ran 800X10 tonight all at 3:05 with exactly that in a recovery jog- didn't kill me or anything but my 1/2 marathon flop last weekend continues to mess with my head. I'm running about 55 mpw right now, but I can honestly say after the half Mar. last weekend, there is really no way I am in 3:05 shape right now- I might believe 3:10. Any comments would be appreciated.

Thanks all-

[This message has been edited by smrnr (edited Jan-21-2006).]

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Desert Tortoise
Cool Runner
posted Jan-21-2006 12:42 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Desert Tortoise   Click Here to Email Desert Tortoise     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I'll get crucified for this, but I think Yasso's is just about as good as any other prediction calculator out there.

For it to be worth anything at all, you first need to be in marathon running shape. If you've been training for a 5k or 10k and have plenty of speed built up and can rip off the 800s easily enough, you'll be in for a rude awakening on marathon day if you have not done the mileage, LT work, tempo runs and long runs. That basic point should be pretty clear.

What it does is take a rough measurement of your lactate threshold. In most cases, the better your lactate threshold, the better your ability to do 5 miles worth of 800s at a sub threshold pace with a rest lap in between. It just happens that the minutes and seconds you can run the 800s lines up pretty well with the hours and minutes you can run the marathon.

So the workout indicates that you could pop off a 3:05 on race day. It's possible. Race conditions and a thousand other things will affect the final time on the clock. So be careful with the pacing for the first ten miles or so. You should have a better idea about 10 miles into the race than you do now.

That's one of the problems of marathon racing. You just don't know exactly what you are capable of until the race is well underway.

[This message has been edited by Desert Tortoise (edited Jan-21-2006).]

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captainwildcat
Cool Runner
posted Jan-21-2006 04:23 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for captainwildcat   Click Here to Email captainwildcat     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
DT summed it up pretty well, I will add that on the McMillan site he says the Yasso 800's tend to predict about 5 min to fast so your prediction of 3:10 based on a bunch of 3:05 800s would sync up with that.

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hazelrah
Cool Runner
posted Jan-21-2006 09:27 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for hazelrah   Click Here to Email hazelrah     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
It is not a predictor nor is it meant to be. It is a coincidence. A statement can be made that "if cannot run 10 800s in 3:10 then you cannot run a marathon in 3:10". I agree with this. To say "if you can run 10 800s in 3:10 then you can run a marathon in 3:10" is not true at all. It only says you have one component required to run a marathon in that time. I was doing 3:08 800's in fall of 2004 and ran my marathon in best effort in 3:25.

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leitnerj
Cool Runner
posted Jan-21-2006 10:49 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for leitnerj   Click Here to Email leitnerj     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
It seems to me to be more correlated with Vo2max, but that's
purely speculative on my part. If you don't have good aerobic
conditioning, you can run Yasso's to your heart's content and
get nowhere in the marathon. For one of my previous marathons
I brought myself to the point where I could do 12 Yasso's at
3:05 with minimal recovery time and I finished the marathon in 3:54.
I targeted 3:05 based on a prediction from my one mile race time
of 5:36.

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Desert Tortoise
Cool Runner
posted Jan-21-2006 11:54 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Desert Tortoise   Click Here to Email Desert Tortoise     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by hazelrah:
It is not a predictor nor is it meant to be. It is a coincidence. A statement can be made that "if cannot run 10 800s in 3:10 then you cannot run a marathon in 3:10". I agree with this. To say "if you can run 10 800s in 3:10 then you can run a marathon in 3:10" is not true at all. It only says you have one component required to run a marathon in that time. I was doing 3:08 800's in fall of 2004 and ran my marathon in best effort in 3:25.

Actually, it is a predictor and was meant to be one when it was published in Runner's World some five years ago. It does rely on an odd ability of the numbers in the 800 to line up with the marathon numbers, but those things do happen. With all the facts and figures and various measurements flying around in running and in racing, someting like this was bound to happen.

Personally I think it's pretty clever, but I also think anyone who can count without using their fingers is pretty darn smart to begin with. No matter. Here's the article in Runner's World where it was first proposed by Amby Burfoot:

http://www.runnersworld.com/article/0,5033,s6-51-0-0-624,00.html

The reason lactate threshold is so important to marathon running is that the closer you run to your lactate threshold, the faster you burn glycogen. That glycogen comes from the carbohydrates you've been eating before race day, and it gets stored in your muscles and even your liver. When you're buzzing along too close to your lactate threshold, the glycogen stores you have empty themselves out by the 20 mile mark or so.

Many folks who crash and burn respond by doing more and more long runs when they really need to improve their lactate threshold or back off the pace by 10 to 20 seconds per mile. The whole idea of doing lactate threshold workouts each and every week of a marathon program is to push that lactate theshold to a faster pace so that the marathon pace can be improved also.

If you stay off your lactate threshold by some 20 to 40 seconds during the marathon and have done your long runs and all those other goodies that make up a marathoners kit-and-kaboodle, then you should be burning fats along with the glycogen, and burning those fats will allow your glycogen stores to last to the 26.2 mile mark.

Yasso's 800s give an indication of that threshold where you just might start burnging glycogen at a dangerous level, and they happen to give you a goal time without resorting to a conversion table. And that's all fine and dandy and it's also about as useful as the other prediction calculators, but there are many other factors involved in running an actualy time.

So take the Yasso's 800s into consideration. Take that half-marathon into consideration. Take the course into consideration. Take the weather conditions and take countless other things into consideration, but do try to stay focused on the race itself and have some fun too.

[This message has been edited by Desert Tortoise (edited Jan-21-2006).]

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WI MTP
Cool Runner
posted Jan-21-2006 01:36 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for WI MTP     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Peronally for my 1st 4 marathons I could run the marathon faster than I could do Yasso's. An average of 4-5 minutes faster. But I never tried to run these fully rested and never took more than 90 seconds of rest inbetween.

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hazelrah
Cool Runner
posted Jan-21-2006 02:42 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for hazelrah   Click Here to Email hazelrah     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
DT- Thanks for the artical. I do not read runners world so I did not know it was supposed to be a predictor. I would say it is a VERY poor one. I think the best predictor most of us have is half marathon times. 30K would be even better, but few of us race 30Ks as they would take too much out of our other training (and there are not that many 30Ks around anyway).

I am the opposite of WI MPT, I can do Yasso's much faster then my marathon time, as I indicate above. For the record, I do not believe I am lacking in mileage or long runs, I just do not see the correlation between 800's and marathon times that others observe. I generally see a good correlation between HM and marathon, although my performance falloff is much steper then say Daniel's VDOT would predict, but it is consistent. For example when I was running 3:08 Yassos, that season my HM time was 1:31:5x, 30K time 2:18:xx (7:25 pace) and marathon time 3:24:5x...

Cheers- John

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eggnite
Cool Runner
posted Jan-21-2006 02:53 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for eggnite     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I think it depends on your experience. I had a year of higschool track and crosscountry, I completed yasso 800s giving me a prediction time of 3:10. My first marathon was a 3:49. I think because of my lack of experience in distance, it was less accurate for me.

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smrnr
Cool Runner
posted Jan-21-2006 03:36 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for smrnr     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hazelrah- Do you think you are doing enough mpw and/ or long runs? This could be why your marathons are not quite meeting your Yasso's or your half marathon times. Are you running enough wknd 18-22 milers b4 your marathon as well as miles per week-say at least in the 50's?

I think DT has hit the nail on the head- I think he's got something we he says doing the Yasso's in minutes means one can have some confidence that one is *capable* of that marathon time in hours. However, it's the right combo/ratio of workouts- long runs/mpw/ and V02 max w-outs (and/or tempos) that make it all come together just right. I think that's the key. It's like eating a balanced diet for overall health. It makes sense.

So if you *can* do Yasso's at a particular pace- great, but the confidence for the marathon time will be whether or not all these other components have been added into one's training in the appropriate amounts. Sounds good to me.

Thanks you guys for all of your input- it's really great.

[This message has been edited by smrnr (edited Jan-21-2006).]

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Desert Tortoise
Cool Runner
posted Jan-21-2006 04:01 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Desert Tortoise   Click Here to Email Desert Tortoise     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by hazelrah:
DT- Thanks for the artical. I do not read runners world so I did not know it was supposed to be a predictor.

I don't read it much either. I'm usually looking at the pictures of the pretty women in the skimpy outfits. When it comes to pretty women, it's often better than the Victoria's Secret catalog or Cosmopolitan, and I won't look stupid if my wife walks up on me when I'm flipping through its pages.

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smrnr
Cool Runner
posted Jan-21-2006 04:25 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for smrnr     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
DT- funny you should look at RW for the girls in their cute, skimpy outfits- us girls *also* like looking at RW, but for the boys sweating with their shirts off

yeah, thanks for the article- good one.

[This message has been edited by smrnr (edited Jan-21-2006).]

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captainwildcat
Cool Runner
posted Jan-21-2006 05:04 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for captainwildcat   Click Here to Email captainwildcat     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Desert Tortoise:
I don't read it much either. I'm usually looking at the pictures of the pretty women in the skimpy outfits. When it comes to pretty women, it's often better than the Victoria's Secret catalog or Cosmopolitan, and I won't look stupid if my wife walks up on me when I'm flipping through its pages.


I thought I was the only one who did that

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stillgreen38
Member
posted Oct-06-2006 11:01 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for stillgreen38     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Know this thread is long done, but have just joined the forum and am 2 weeks out from first marathon and considering the race time predictors.

From the posts above and considering the conjunction of contributing factors to marathon times, it seems that all that can be stated formally about the Yasso-800's predictive value is a contra-positive argument: An achieved marathon time of X implies capability of running Yasso-800's in time Y. Therefore, an inability to run Yasso's in Y implies an inability to achieve marathon time X.

My training group's coach has us scheduled for 10x1mile repeats with 2:00 rest a mere 12 days out from the goal marathon. He claims that consistent 6:00 miles in this workout are necessary (but not sufficient) for predicting a sub-3 hr marathon time.

Q1. Is he nuts making this claim?
Q2. Is he nuts having us do this insane workout 12 days out?

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webfoot
Cool Runner
posted Oct-06-2006 12:29 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for webfoot     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by stillgreen38:

Q1. Is he nuts making this claim?
Q2. Is he nuts having us do this insane workout 12 days out?

No he is not. If you have put in the mileage, you will be strong enough to execute AND recover from this workout in time for the marathon.

Your coach's workout is a far better prep then these catchy yassos thingies...

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92heelgrad
Cool Runner
posted Oct-06-2006 03:21 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 92heelgrad   Click Here to Email 92heelgrad     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I can run yasso 800's a lot faster than I can run a marathon.

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tigger
Cool Runner
posted Oct-06-2006 03:55 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for tigger     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I've posted this before. It appeared a couple of years ago and is the best I've seen on this subject. (TG&P Oz)

DT, are you sure the Runner's World article was the first time this appeared. Note that it was mentioned in one of the posts below as a training regime back in 1998. Also, was this particular workout not conceived by Bart Yasso & not by Amby Burfoot?

Anyway, here is the discussion from a long time ago.


rdelta
Cool Runner posted 02-13-2001 01:48 PM
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I was wondering if any of you here on CR have used Yasso 800's for marathon training and do you feel that it helped ? If not what type of speed work do you use and why ?
Robert
"Pain is weakness leaving the body"

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LB
Member posted 02-13-2001 02:08 PM
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I used Yasso 800's during my last marathon prep. I used it as the last speed work before the marathon. I used it to gauge my marathon pace and to give me confidence that I could handle that pace. It worked well for me.
Long tempo runs of 3-5 miles or more at or just below marathon pace helped as well.

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James H
Cool Runner posted 02-13-2001 03:32 PM
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Based on what I've read about the physiology of running, and my own experience, Yasso 800's aren't fast enough to work on your body's maximum oxygen consumption rat (VO2) and are faster than you need to work on your body's ability to process the lactic acid produced by exercise. They split the difference, and are better than no speed work at all, but eventually you may want to do separate lactate threshold tempo runs and VO2 max intervals.
Some of the coolrunners like MrFit and maryt, who have fancy degrees in exercise physiology, should weigh in here as soon as they get over the culture shock of what's happening to these fora. I guess we now know how the Romans felt when the Visigoths rolled into town with Howard Stern blaring on the radio. By the way, welcome!

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liweihan
Cool Runner posted 02-13-2001 03:39 PM
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I have been planning on using Yasso's 800's this year as I train or my first marathon. We did them in high school XC, but just not as many. I found them quite helpful back then. But I am interested in further posts on other people's experiences using Yasso's 800s.
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Goober
unregistered posted 02-13-2001 04:07 PM
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In 1998 a group of five of us did the Yasso 800 workout about three weeks before our fall marathon. The workout fit in well as an alternative to another interval workout we had originally planned. One of the five may have had an unrealistic target and didn't complete the workout. A second runner had an off day in warm weather at the marathon. For the other three (my wife, my weekend long run partner and my daughter), the workout was pretty close to the mark.
To clarify for those who aren't familiar with Yassos, this is an interval workout on the track about two to three weeks before the marathon. Run 10 x 800, with a jogging rest period between each one that is equal to the time it took to run the 800.

The goal is to average a time in minutes and seconds for each 800 equal to the time in hours and minutes that you expect for the marathon. Thus, if your target for the marathon is 3:20:00, you would try to run each 800 in 3:20.

The theory is that if you can complete the workout, your goal for the marathon should be realistic.

I believe there are two notations that are missing from all the articles I have seen on Yassos. First, the runner must have completed the rest of a solid marathon training program, especially the long runs. Second, someone trying this workout should have a good base of interval or similar workouts. I think it's too difficult and dangerous to try high intensity interval workouts without moving into them gradually.

I think Yasso 800s can sometimes be used effectively as a guide to the level of one's conditioning. But, I agree with James that there are better speed workouts for marathon preparation.

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rdelta
Cool Runner posted 02-13-2001 04:30 PM
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Thanks for your insight and James H I appreciate the welcome. I hope I can add something to this sight and maybe help others in their training as well....
Robert
"Pain is weakness leaving the body"

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MrFit76
Cool Runner posted 02-23-2001 07:39 PM
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I apologise to all concerned that I have been a little quiet lately (swamped with personal training clientele) however, I heard the call for someone with an exercise physiology degree so here I am.
My scientific opinion of Yasso 800's is that an 800m is not long enough to place maximal demands on the aerobic system, as the phosphate system will be dominant for the first 20 seconds, followed by the anaerobic glycolytic system (i.e. systems placing maximal demands on muscular energy stores) before oxidative glycolosis begins to dominate (somewhere around 3 mins). That is when stroke volume is maximal and this is the desired response for maximal gains in VO2max. However, that said, depending on the rest interval, it may be beneficial to do 800m repeats with relatively short rest to hit pek stroke volume and then enable some lactic acid dissipation prior to beginning the next repeat. However, this is not typically what the elite do.

400 & 800m repeats still dominate the VO2max programs of the elite runners all the way up to the marathon and while this is clear, I have no scientific justification for it so I will continue to do my mile and 3k repeats until someone can convince me otherwise. Any opinions are most welcome.

Welcome to all the new forum users and thank you for not forgetting about me.

All the best,

Alan.

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TG&P Oz
Cool Runner posted 02-24-2001 02:09 AM
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The pace on "Yasso" 800s does typically fall somewhere between the optimal critical training zones. The efficacy of the Yasso 800s vis-a-vis other workouts will depend in part on your own recent running background (read: mileage) and on your basic abilities (i.e., do you have more talent for middle distances or are you a natural long distance runner?). As a general rule, though, Yasso 800s are slightly too fast relative to the pace which brings you to your lactate threshold (LT), and they are too slow relative to the pace which elicits your VO2max. If you run closer to your LT pace or closer to your VO2max pace, you will get a more cost-effective workout, provided you spend enough time at pace AND provided you control the lactate accumulation during the workout.

In case you didn't know, a decent estimate of your LT pace is that which you could run for a one hour race (using an EVEN pacing strategy, of course). A decent estimate of your VO2max pace is that which you could run for a 10 minute race. Of course, this ASSUMES you are already trained well enough to run pretty hard for an hour and that you're capable of really hammering it balls-out for 10 min.

In practice, you will usually exceed your LT (and will subsequently begin breathing noticeably harder or faster) after 18-22 min. at your LT pace. In Ex. Phys. parlance, the point of hyperventilation is called the Respiratory Compensation Point. Even though your blood lactate levels begin to rise faster at this point (actually, BEFORE this point), you can still maintain the pace for the full hour (give or take a bit) by relying more and more on anaerobic glycolysis (energy production) as the race progresses. Anyway, it turns out that 20-ish min. at LT pace provides optimal stimulus for improvement if you are running CONTINUOUSLY at that speed, and 34-42 min. at or just below (slower than) LT pace provides optimal stimulus for improvement if very short REST PERIODS are incorporated. All this has been determined and refined by trial-and-error, not by theory, so you can rely on it.

At VO2max pace, 15-20 min. spent at or very near pace delivers the best results. It takes between 3 and 4 min. to achieve VO2max from a dead start if you're running evenly at this speed, but you can attain VO2max repeatedly during the middle and latter stages of a workout of repetitions as short as 1-2 min. if you orchestrate the rest periods correctly. Ideal rest periods for VO2max workouts are slightly shorter than the length of the previous run period (e.g., 2:00 at VO2max pace, 1:45 walk or 2:00 jog, repeat). If you rest longer than you run on this sort of workout, you'll actually accumulate MORE blood lactate (that's bad). This has to do with the phenomenon known as "venous pooling", which undermines the ability of the heart, liver, kidneys, and non-working skeletal muscles to take up the blood lactate and re-metabolize it. So bear that in mind - too much rest is counterproductive when doing a VO2max workout.

Anyway, the repetition running I'd recommend in lieu of Yasso 800s includes the following workouts.

LT workouts:

1.) 12 x 3 min. at your estimated LT pace, with 30-60 secs. rest periods between each (just start the next rep when you're ready, and as you get fitter, you'll get closer to 30 secs. rests). This workout is MOST effective if you select a pace which will allow you to run the FASTEST reps at the END of the workout without undue struggling (it should feel like a good, strong rhythm run that you'd do on the road if you felt good).

2.) 15-20 x 1 min. STARTING at your estimated LT pace (on the first 1-3 reps), slightly FASTER during the middle of the workout (get into a good rhythm here), and progressively faster still on the last 2-3 reps, with 20-30 secs. rest periods. Since those rests are so short, you'd better select a starting speed that doesn't get you in trouble early on, or you'll make the workout too anaerobic and it won't be as effective.

VO2max workouts:

3.) 6 x 3 min. at your estimated VO2max pace, with just under 3 min. rest periods (some or all of this can be jogged).

4.) 12-15 x 1 min. STARTING at VO2max pace, slightly faster in the middle of the workout, progressively faster still over the last 2-3 reps, with 55-60 secs. rest periods.

5.) 5 x 5-6 min. at about 95% of your VO2max speed (about 15-20 secs. per mile SLOWER than VO2max pace), with roughly 3 min. rest periods between each (very easy jog on most of this rest period).

Give those a try. Obviously, you've got to be reasonably fit be-FORE doing sessions such as these, AND you must cover all the other bases in your training (recovery runs, long runs, tempo runs, a few short races here and there, etc.). This is just GENERIC information and it DOESN'T tell you how to fit the workouts into an overall program. You'll have to be smart about that. If you do want to do the Yasso 800s, try doing them with rest periods of about HALF of the run periods rather than EQUAL to the run periods.

Train hard and smart, but above all, enjoy.

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ryan
Member posted 02-24-2001 10:35 AM
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Folks, save that post above for the files. In a 3 minute read you get more than half of all you'll ever need to know about threshold and VO2 max training. Nice post TG&P (or whatever you happen to be calling yourself these days).

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KudzuRunner
Cool Runner
posted Oct-06-2006 05:32 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for KudzuRunner   Click Here to Email KudzuRunner     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I think he's calling himself John Kellogg these days. Or maybe John Kellog.

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