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Tinman

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Author Topic:   Tinman
fredurie
Cool Runner
posted Dec-24-2005 02:01 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for fredurie     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
http://tinman.wls3.com/

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DanMoriarity
Cool Runner
posted Dec-24-2005 04:07 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for DanMoriarity   Click Here to Email DanMoriarity     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
He's getting a lot of bashing for this on letsrun, but I think the guy is genuinely interested in helping people and knows a thing or two about running and if he wants to try to make a go of it, good luck to him.

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Jim24315
Cool Runner
posted Dec-26-2005 11:13 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jim24315   Click Here to Email Jim24315     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Regarding Tinman:

The name came from the Tin Man Triathlon which is half of an Iron Man. He used to, and maybe still does, write for a triathlon publication. Although his true love is running, he is interested in human performance in general, has degrees in exercise physiology, and did graduate study work in the human performance lab. He has coached everything from 400-meter runners to ultra runners.

A lot of the bashers on letsrun.com point to his use of an alias. He started posting and writing articles with this handle and developed quite a following. Why not keep it? In addition to the bashers, there have also been many to come to his defense. The letsrun crowd will bash just about everyone at one time or another. Btw, there are many high-profile coaches who also write and post using aliases for various reasons. When Tinman coaches someone he uses his real name, provides phone number, email, home address (not a p.o. box!), and more. He gave it to me the first time I talked to him. I have to admit that I was a little bit leery at first but I don’t know how he could have been any more transparent. I suppose I could have even jotted down his license number if I’d wanted to.

He met me at local running track, driving over in his rv, while he was in my area doing contract work at one of the hospitals. He did not have to do that. It was a thrill to have the notorious Tinman supervise my workout, running back and forth accross the track with is stopwatch, and even run a few laps with me. This guy is an absolute nut about running. If he does not truly love this sport and know a helluva a lot about it, he as me fooled. After the workout we stopped for a little snack before he was off to Stanford U to watch a big cross country meet over there. It was the one where the McDougle twins ran 1-2. To him it was like having tickets to the Super Bowl—he was very animated in talking about it. When he gets home from work he spends a great deal of time retrieving and answering emails from runners, and working on all the various charts, stats, etc. that he keeps up with. He lives and breathes it. Although he has had some injury problems in recent years, he was also a runner in college and still runs a little and cross trains. He had, in his words, a “very mediocre” mile best of 4:32. He still appears to be in very good shape and is built more like a halfback than a distance runner.

I don't have any real in-depth knowledge about his credentials other than what I've said. I only know that he's been very helpful to me, and believe that he's also been helpful to many others. It has been the response that he has recieved from the running community, bashers not withstanding, that inspired him to start the Web site. Just the dedication, enthusiasm, and interest is enough for me but I believe there is more than that.


[This message has been edited by Jim24315 (edited Dec-26-2005).]

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DanMoriarity
Cool Runner
posted Dec-26-2005 02:48 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for DanMoriarity   Click Here to Email DanMoriarity     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
From his website:

"Training programs are developed by hand at this point and will not be fully functional for 3-4 months. Upon completion, programs will be available for athletes in multiple formats:

One-time program
Once monthly communications with Tinman
Weekly communications
Prices will vary depending on athlete load. "

Sounds like an online coaching service to me. Not that there's anything wrong with that. If people want to pay for his services why shouldn't he have an opportunity to make a few bucks? Good for him and I wish him luck with his new venture.

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Jim24315
Cool Runner
posted Dec-26-2005 04:01 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jim24315   Click Here to Email Jim24315     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by DanMoriarity:
From his website:

"Training programs are developed by hand at this point and will not be fully functional for 3-4 months. Upon completion, programs will be available for athletes in multiple formats:

One-time program
Once monthly communications with Tinman
Weekly communications
Prices will vary depending on athlete load. "

Sounds like an online coaching service to me. Not that there's anything wrong with that. If people want to pay for his services why shouldn't he have an opportunity to make a few bucks? Good for him and I wish him luck with his new venture.


Sure does, doesn't it? I read someone else's comment saying it was only informational. I must not have checked the links. I wonder if they were there at the time of the orginal post. Anyway, thanks for pointing it out, Dan. I will go back and edit my post.

I too hope he succeeds, both because I think he is a good guy who knows his stuff, and for my own selfish reasons. The training approach I am using is unlike anything I've ever tried before and is different from most of the popular ones I'm seeing. Although I definitely have confidence in it, I will try to hold off with my praise until I have more success at the races.

[This message has been edited by Jim24315 (edited Dec-26-2005).]

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BriRunner
Cool Runner
posted Dec-26-2005 07:00 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for BriRunner   Click Here to Email BriRunner     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hasn't Jack Daniels used the alias "Tinman" in the past? If that is who we are talking about, he has incredible credentials.

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RTCRUNR
Cool Runner
posted Dec-27-2005 09:06 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for RTCRUNR     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by BriRunner:
Hasn't Jack Daniels used the alias "Tinman" in the past? If that is who we are talking about, he has incredible credentials.

Pretty sure Tinman isn't Jack Daniels, and I don't think Jack Daniels has ever used the handle "Tinman." I think he's posted as "jtupper" on letsrun.

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Tchuck
Cool Runner
posted Dec-27-2005 10:29 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Tchuck   Click Here to Email Tchuck     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Jim24315:
The training approach I am using is unlike anything I've ever tried before and is different from most of the popular ones I'm seeing. Although I definitely have confidence in it, I will try to hold off with my praise until I have more success at the races.

[This message has been edited by Jim24315 (edited Dec-26-2005).]


Jim,

What training approach are you following that is so much different???

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Jim24315
Cool Runner
posted Dec-27-2005 11:01 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jim24315   Click Here to Email Jim24315     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
RTCRUNR is right. Tinman is definitely not Jack Daniels. I'm not sure how often he speaks with Daniels, but they do know each other and have had some conversations.

Thcuck,

The training approach I'm using is very simple. It consists of 2 "big" workouts each week and running easy or slow on the other 5 days. The big workouts are both long runs and they are also faster than anything else I do. Up until now, one of the long ones has been more of a progression or fast finish run. The other is often long intervals for the entire workout or at least part of it. For example, one of them has been 17 miles with the odd miles at an easy pace and even ones at half-marathon race pace--this results in a total of 8 miles at half-marathon pace. The 17th mile is a cool down with some strides. What makes this not the standard type of interval workout is that I keep running through the whole thing rather than a pure jog--the easy miles are at the slower end of of my normal easy pace. So far this has been 8:25-8:50 for the easy miles and 6:40's for the quicker ones. Also I've done a mixture of this and some hard hills near the end.

I don't think that TInman gives all runners the same type schedule. It depends on a lot of things, including age, strengths. weaknesses, distance of key races, etc. He seems to think I'm more suited for going longer (slow ) and has nudged me in that direction. I was racing almost nothing but 5k's when I first started working with him. When I moved up to half marathon I had my best race of the year. The "2 big per week" schedule didn't start until late Nov. when I started pointing toward a March marathon.

I could go on and on but I will finish by saying that I have been a less than perfect pupil. Virtually all of my workouts include some strides or sprints at the end, but most of the time I've zapped myself too much earlier to be able to do them right, if at all. I've made a few other alterations but I'll leave it at that for now.

[This message has been edited by Jim24315 (edited Dec-27-2005).]

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Tchuck
Cool Runner
posted Dec-27-2005 12:14 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Tchuck   Click Here to Email Tchuck     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Jim,

I had Will Steele (works with Tinman on his site). He certainly knows his stuff and knows Tinmans approach. This is a weekly workout he scheduled for me based on 20 miles per week slightly increasing by mid February and then he will adjust at this time. It also includes 2 key work outs out of the 4 days I run while still sort of in my offseason.

Day 1 Longer run, warm up 2 miles with a few striders then
work toward a 4 mile tempo run faster than 1/2 marathon pace but starting at tad slower than 1/2 mar. pace and 3 miles, then 5 min. easy followed by 3 working up to 5 intervals of 300M at 2 mile pace, striders and cool down

Day 2 Easy 20 - 45 min. w/ striders if up to it

Day 3 warm up then 10 X 1 min at 10K pace cooldown

Day 4 Easy 20 - 45 min with 4 - 6 striders

The longer run is different for me because it includes tempo and shorter faster intervals to get to my 8 miles

I am curious to know if there is a benefit to running 8 miles slower vs. 8 miles with different paces. I guess with my limited miles, one needs to kill 2 birds with one stone.

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sedentiary
Cool Runner
posted Dec-27-2005 06:34 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for sedentiary   Click Here to Email sedentiary     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Jim24315:
The training approach I'm using is very simple.....

Funny how that is not in keeping with Tinman's posting on the letsrun board where he identifies the following paces a critical elements of a training program:

40 min max pace ("critical velocity")
7 min max pace (100% VO2max)

[This message has been edited by sedentiary (edited Dec-27-2005).]

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Jim24315
Cool Runner
posted Dec-27-2005 09:10 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jim24315   Click Here to Email Jim24315     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Tchuck:
Jim,

The longer run is different for me because it includes tempo and shorter faster intervals to get to my 8 miles

I am curious to know if there is a benefit to running 8 miles slower vs. 8 miles with different paces. I guess with my limited miles, one needs to kill 2 birds with one stone.


Tchuck,

I'm not sure how to answer your question but I wouldn't think of it as one vs the other. It really depends on what the objective of the workout is. They both can be beneficial. I'd ask Will about it.

Sorry I can't be more helpful but I'm sure that Will could give you a better answer than I could.

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Jim24315
Cool Runner
posted Dec-27-2005 09:28 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jim24315   Click Here to Email Jim24315     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sedentiary:
Funny how that is not in keeping with Tinman's posting on the letsrun board where he identifies the following paces a critical elements of a training program:

40 min max pace ("critical velocity")
7 min max pace (100% VO2max)


Sedentiary,

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make. Is it that my training program is missing some critical elements? If so I can only tell you that he's seen me run before and probably realizes that I would collapse at 100% VO2 max or critical velocity. I'm pretty old you know. That said, I'll tell him to be very careful about what he says on letsrun.colm

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sedentiary
Cool Runner
posted Dec-28-2005 06:20 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for sedentiary   Click Here to Email sedentiary     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
His comments on letsrun are very interesting.
If you are in basebuilding you might not want to do any VO2max workouts.
But you may consider a 20 minute critical velocity (40 minute max pace) run.

I do not want to criticize Tinman in any way.

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fredurie
Cool Runner
posted Jan-03-2006 12:25 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for fredurie     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
http://wls3.com/tintalk/viewtopic.php?t=41

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tracktown
Member
posted Jan-12-2006 10:58 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for tracktown   Click Here to Email tracktown     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Jim:
You probably would collapse in a heap if I made you run 7 minute at 100% effort to reach VO2 max velocity. LOL! Regardless, such training is not in keeping with ideal marathon preparation in my view. Your current workouts are fine. When you start running the 5k as a primary event, then I 'll give you some 1k reps at MVO2 velocity.

To those who wonder about my "credentials", many years ago I earned a Master of Science in exercise science from the University of Wisconsin. Does this make me better or wiser than those who don't have formal education or an elite runenrs pedigree? I doubt it.

Many legendary coaches have had little or no formal education in the science of training, but they have suceeded anyway. Perhaps a good idea is a good idea and not predicated on credentials or name? If such is true, then a child or or even an elder who who had only an 8th grade education - like both my grandfathers - would have equal chance to impart wisdom upon the world as the erudites.

* Some of the best lessons have been taught to me by the seemingly "unqualified." Has this also happened to you?

To those who've provided support, I thank you. To those who don't know me, perhaps we can meet upon the road less traveled and have a cup of Joe someday at a cafe and talk about running or life in general.

Kind Regards, Tinman

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sedentiary
Cool Runner
posted Jan-13-2006 06:02 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for sedentiary   Click Here to Email sedentiary     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by tracktown:
Jim:
You probably would collapse in a heap if I made you run 7 minute at 100% effort to reach VO2 max velocity. LOL!

Kind Regards, Tinman


I did not mean "run 7 minutes at maximum pace" rather run some (say 4 minutes) at the maximum pace sustainable for 7 mins.

For some time I followed your advice on doing work at this and the critical velocity as an indoor rower. I also followed your advice to lengthen the breaks between the 4 min 100% VO2max repeats (typically 15 mins).

I found your comment very interesting that this can increase the amount of oxygen consumed even though heart rates might be lower.

I saw very good improvement for distances of 5K to half marathon.

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