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Sub 20-Minute 5-K


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Author Topic:   Sub 20-Minute 5-K
SaintCroixRunner
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posted Dec-05-2005 06:33 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for SaintCroixRunner     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
First of all, I apologize if this thread still exists somewhere and I'm reinventing the wheel. Someone tell me if that's the case.

If not, I hope that there are some other runners out there hoping to break into the teens at this distance. My PR is 20:27, and I am in the middle of building up to 50 mpw in a quest to crack it. I'm 28 and relatively new to running after a college soccer career and then a couple of years of..well....not too much athletically.

Anyone out there looking to do something similiar. Maybe we can keep in touch like the 40 minute 10-K thread and see what strategies are working for us.

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batfish
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posted Dec-05-2005 06:46 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for batfish     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hi SaintCroix,

I searched and searched for the original, classic Sub-20 thread bug couldn't find it anywhere. So, I'm glad you started a new one.

I'm not nearly as close to the mystical barrier as you are; my PR is a 21:28...

Still, I think I have the chops.

Two reasons:
1) I've only been running for 5 months
2) I'm about 20 pounds overweight

I figure if I can stay healthy, build a base over the winter, lose the excess baggage, then I have a legitimate shot in the spring.

So....

I started base-building last month. I built to 40 and took a recovery week last week. This week, I'm going for 48-ish. I hope to build to around 60 over the course of the winter and run a 5K race off of this base in March.

After the March race (which is just to sort of see where I'm at), I'll add some quality runs in hopes of breaking through in in a late spring goal race.

Anyway, I went a little crazy and ran a 16 mile long run yesterday, so I'm ahead of schedule for this week, mileage-wise...

My base building schedule is shaping up to something like this (5-6 days on, 1-2 days rest):

SUN: long
MON: rest
TUE: rest or recovery
WED: medium-long
THU: rest or recovery
FRI: medium long
SAT: recovery

I'm currently running all of my runs at a comfortable pace, nothing fast.

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SaintCroixRunner
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posted Dec-05-2005 06:58 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for SaintCroixRunner     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Your plan seems solid bat - let's hope we can rope in some more people. How was the long run, are beat up today or feeling okay?

I ran 13 on Saturday and ran too fast I think. I finished in 1:36, which was at 7:24 pace and I was pretty dam sore yesterday, but good sore, not injured sore.

On the recommendation of my sister's boyfriend (whose PR is a measley 14:11 in the 5-K) I'm running 7-days a week. He claims an easy 2 miles is better than not running. We'll see. I'm just laying a base now, because I think I have decent speed, but awful endurance (my times drop way off as the race distance increases).

So, my schedule for this week is

Sun - 4 mile recovery
Mon - 6.5 mile easy run
Tues - Same as Mon
Wed - 9 mile easy run
Thur - Same as Mon
Fri - 2 mile warmup and then 4 mile tempo at 6:50-7:00 pace.
Sat - Long run 12-14.

Building up by raising mileage for three weeks in a row, then down for a week to 60% of the week before.

Hope this makes sense. Good luck.

Patrick

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mbannon
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posted Dec-05-2005 07:08 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for mbannon   Click Here to Email mbannon     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I was wondering when this thread would crop up again. Count me in for the Sub-20 5k wannabee club. Right now I'm somewhere around 21:30 or so. I'm hoping to go sub-20 by next June. I'm building up to the following schedule, which I hope to maintain for 3 or 4 months before the Big Race (whatever that is):

One long run, 10-12 miles
One fast run, 3-5 miles
Track workout every other week, 200/400/800 ladders
One or two recovery runs to bring total to 30-35 mpw

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duckgeek
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posted Dec-05-2005 07:46 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for duckgeek     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Me too. I've only run one fairly casual 5k (21:58), but McMillan projects me at 20:32 based on my 1:34:54 half marathon.

I'm working on strength and speed over the winter and hoping to get 19:xx in the spring.

Chris

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SaintCroixRunner
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posted Dec-05-2005 07:57 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for SaintCroixRunner     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hey Chris,
Your McMillan prediction could be off if you're like me. My first 1/2 was 1:37 and thats when I ran my 5-k PR. If you're new to the sport you're going to get progressively worse at the longer distances. I think you have a good shot at 19:xx, maybe even lower.

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batfish
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posted Dec-05-2005 08:41 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for batfish     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by SaintCroixRunner:
Your plan seems solid bat - let's hope we can rope in some more people. How was the long run, are beat up today or feeling okay?


I'm feeling ok - just a suggestion of soreness in the hammies. I have an ankle ache, which is a little more worrisome. I tweaked it last weekend - my van ran out of gas and I had to run 4 miles home on a highway! I ran much faster than I normally would, and on pavement (cars speeding by just feet from you have a tendency to inspire a quicker than normal pace), and I think the concussion nicked my ankle, somehow (I usually run slowly on soft trails). It's been a little achy here and there. I have to watch this one carefully.


quote:

I ran 13 on Saturday and ran too fast I think. I finished in 1:36, which was at 7:24 pace and I was pretty dam sore yesterday, but good sore, not injured sore.


Wow, that's a fast pace for 13, IMO. I generally run all of my miles between 8:30 and 10:00 minute/miles. The only time I'm in the sevens or lower is when racing... I should probably run some reps or something just to get used to running at a faster pace...

quote:

On the recommendation of my sister's boyfriend (whose PR is a measley 14:11 in the 5-K) I'm running 7-days a week. He claims an easy 2 miles is better than not running. We'll see. I'm just laying a base now, because I think I have decent speed, but awful endurance (my times drop way off as the race distance increases).


14:11 (!!). I wonder what he thinks of our ambitions of running 19:59! Wow, that's fast. Yeah, I'd like to run seven days a week, but sleep is an issue for me. I have to get up at 5:00-5:30am for my runs (so as to not impact the family) and after a few days of that, I'm pretty tired, so I like to indulge by sleeping in to about 7:00am a few days per week.

quote:

So, my schedule for this week is

Sun - 4 mile recovery
Mon - 6.5 mile easy run
Tues - Same as Mon
Wed - 9 mile easy run
Thur - Same as Mon
Fri - 2 mile warmup and then 4 mile tempo at 6:50-7:00 pace.
Sat - Long run 12-14.

Building up by raising mileage for three weeks in a row, then down for a week to 60% of the week before.

Hope this makes sense. Good luck.

Patrick



Sounds like we're on the same page, base-training. I'll probably add that tempo run after I've held my highest base mileage for a while (or, more likely, after the snow melts).

Anyone have their goal races in mind, yet? Or are we all a ways away?

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BriRunner
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posted Dec-05-2005 09:32 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for BriRunner   Click Here to Email BriRunner     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I had a 19:26 at age 49 and a 19:41 at age 50, but then got a bad case of plantar fasciitis that has taken a year to get over, and I am only now getting back up to 20 mile weeks. I am going to try to go sub-20 again with you all. I'm hoping I can PR once more before I just get slower and slower. My PR for the 5K was on about 30 mpw.

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JasonsDrivingForce
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posted Dec-05-2005 10:22 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for JasonsDrivingForce     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Count me in as a sub 20 5K wannabe! However, I am trying to break the sub 20 barrier with a jogging stroller. I have been running with the stroller for the past two years but my personal best with the stroller is 20:51. Funny how my personal best without it is 20:46. Anyway I ran a 20:06 with him on a training run so I think I have a great shot at it if it doesn’t snow for the race on Sunday. I ran an 8K on Thanksgiving day with my son. I had a 5:55 first mile, a 12:15 first two miles, and a 19:55 at the 3 mile mark so I should be able to do it if the course is relatively flat. I am sure that I could do it without the jogging stroller but that just isn’t as much of a challenge. Let us know if you reach that magical number. It will definitely motivate us to try that much harder.

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MaineRunner2001
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posted Dec-06-2005 11:31 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for MaineRunner2001     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I'm still looking for a sub 20 minute 5K. I used to do it consistently when I ran cross-country as a Junior in High School (all time best 19:04). I'm 39 now, started running -again- when I was 35. Here are my pb's since I started: 2001 - 21:59; 2002 - 21:27; 2003 - 20:18; 2004 - 20:06; and 2005 - 20:04.

My 5K race times have leveled off. If I could bump my miles higher - from 30 to 50-60 I'd probably be able to do it. However, my wife complains that she misses me too much when I'm gone so long. Kind of a nice problem to have I guess. I really focused on it the beginning of this year and the year before. Next year I'm not going to stress about it - maybe that will work!

Here's a link to the old 20 minute thread. The first page is missing, but the rest seems to be there:

http://www.coolrunning.com/forums/Forum6/HTML/009714-2.shtml

Good luck all!

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SaintCroixRunner
Cool Runner
posted Dec-06-2005 01:19 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for SaintCroixRunner     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I think it might make the most sense to check in with each other weekly, on Mondays. That way the thread won't get too out of control and since Monday usually comes after we've finished our previous week and any weekend races, it seems to make sense.

Let me know if you think this works...

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stevebur
Cool Runner
posted Dec-06-2005 03:38 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for stevebur   Click Here to Email stevebur     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
SaintCroixRunner
Cool Runner posted Dec-05-2005 06:58 PM            
------------------------------------------------------------------------
I ran 13 on Saturday and ran too fast I think. I finished in 1:36, which was at 7:24 pace and I was pretty dam sore yesterday, but good sore, not injured sore.

are you sure of the distance of that long run? of you can run 13 at 7:24 on a training run (even if done somewhat too fast) then you should be able to break 20:00 for a 5K.
you should probably slow those long runs down, at least a minute per mile, unless you are doing a specfic type of long run (progression run, or a portion of the run at say 1/2 marathon pace).

[This message has been edited by stevebur (edited Dec-06-2005).]

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jimgravity
Cool Runner
posted Dec-06-2005 04:16 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for jimgravity     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by stevebur:
are you sure of the distance of that long run? of you can run 13 at 7:24 on a training run (even if done somewhat too fast) then you should be able to break 20:00 for a 5K.
you should probably slow those long runs down, at least a minute per mile, unless you are doing a specfic type of long run (progression run, or a portion of the run at say 1/2 marathon pace).

[This message has been edited by stevebur (edited Dec-06-2005).]


That's what I was thinking...either he's faster than he knows, or the mileage was wrong.


I'm looking to break 20 too, but I'm not completely focused on it. I ran a 20:47 in '98...had a layoff...started a year ago...did 20:52 six weeks ago. back to adding to my MPW for the winter...might try a 5k next week but since I haven't done anything hard recently I don't think I have any more speed than I had six weeks ago. the course could be substantially easier though...it was a tough one.

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SaintCroixRunner
Cool Runner
posted Dec-06-2005 04:59 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for SaintCroixRunner     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
GPS measured distance - and it matches with what I figured it would be, so I'm pretty sure it was accurate. So, maybe I'm ready for the breakthrough. I haven't raced a 5-K since Sept (when I ran the PR), and have been building the mileage steadily, so maybe I'm there.
I live on an island, so I won't get a chance to test again until the next 5-K in March.
The run did include two water stops lasting 30 seconds or so each during which I stopped the watch.
I was doing a progression run. Started out at 8:00s and worked down to an average of 7:00 flats for the last five miles.

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mbannon
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posted Dec-06-2005 05:10 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for mbannon   Click Here to Email mbannon     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
If you can finish the last 5 of a 13-miler at 7:00 m/m, I'd be very surprised if you're not already capable of going sub-20 for a 5k. I bet you could even do it on a training run next week. I say go for it.

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duckgeek
Cool Runner
posted Dec-06-2005 09:13 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for duckgeek     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by mbannon:
If you can finish the last 5 of a 13-miler at 7:00 m/m, I'd be very surprised if you're not already capable of going sub-20 for a 5k. I bet you could even do it on a training run next week. I say go for it.


I agree. That's a very strong finish.

Hey Chris,
Your McMillan prediction could be off if you're like me. My first 1/2 was 1:37 and thats when I ran my 5-k PR. If you're new to the sport you're going to get progressively worse at the longer distances. I think you have a good shot at 19:xx, maybe even lower.

I am pretty new, just under 2 years. I think I accidently peaked at that 1/2 (beginning of Sept.), one month prior to running Chicago. I ran it way faster than the tempo run I intended it to be, and my last full mile was at 6:48 pace. Dumb. My running really suffered for the next couple of months with injuries and I'm only now starting to pick up the pace again. The last couple of runs I've been able to start throwing in some quality 7:1x miles.

This sounds like a pretty good group with realistic goals! Batfish, maybe we can get Myron over here too. He's running great and could pop a sub-20 any time now.

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Jim24315
Cool Runner
posted Dec-07-2005 02:37 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jim24315   Click Here to Email Jim24315     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
A comment about tempo runs. I checked the link to the old sub-20 thread. This quote is from the very first post there:

“I hate to burst everyone's bubble, but if you read Daniels' book you will note that he does not advocate Tempo Runs for training programs of races as short as 5K.”

I’m looking right at the schedule for “5 to 15 Kilometers” (he does group them together) from “Daniels Running Formula, Second Edition”. He has many threshold runs included in the schedules. Some of them are as long as 40 minutes. I will agree that you can’t race your best 5k without plenty of VO2 max work, but threshold runs and other more endurance-oriented workouts such as slower 1600 intervals (cruise intervals, cardiovascular intervals, etc.) with a short rest period are great preparation for doing the harder stuff. If you can build a solid base including these types of workouts, your harder track workouts will be much more effective when the time for them comes.

Not all runners respond the same to different types of workouts, but many can improve significantly, even racing middle distances, off of nothing but strides, tempo runs, and distance. This is not to say that they too will not improve further with more intensity, it’s just that a large percentage of the gains come before that phase.

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runningsmarter
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posted Dec-07-2005 06:07 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for runningsmarter   Click Here to Email runningsmarter     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Add another to the list of sub-20 wannabe.

Patrick, I'm close to where you are, I'm currently in base building working up to 50 mpw, I ran 48 last week and this week is a cutback week.

I'm actually starting training in Jan for a HM goal race at the end of Mar but have 2 10ks and a 5k scheduled for Jan/Feb/Mar (10/5/10k). I haven't raced a 5K in a while. I live in Germany and they have weird distances, the most recent short races are a 4.8k in Sep and a 5.4k and both were cross-country type races. In the 4.8k I ran 20:02 so I'm thinking my 5k PR is about 20:38ish.

A recommendation on your trng schedule....I would change your ML run to Mon and your tempo run to Wed. That way you have hard days followed by easy days. The way you have it now, you have your tempo and long run, both hard days, back to back.

I look forward to following everyone's progress and good luck!!

rs

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batfish
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posted Dec-07-2005 09:31 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for batfish     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by duckgeek:
I agree. That's a very strong finish.
This sounds like a pretty good group with realistic goals! Batfish, maybe we can get Myron over here too. He's running great and could pop a sub-20 any time now.

Yeah, I'd bet Myron could pop a sub-20 5K pretty much anytime he wants, at this point... He's built a pretty good base. We should rope him in, but he's been absent from the 30s thread for a few days... Still recovering from the marathon, I assume.

Who else on the 30s thread is close? VooDoo? Not sure he runs short races. Trevor? I know he's run sub 16s in HS, but I'm not sure where he is now (and he's marathon training)...

Probably some others I've missed.


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batfish
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posted Dec-07-2005 09:39 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for batfish     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hi Jim24315!

Nice to have you drop in! Feel free to bring over any boomers who are near this goal and would care to drop some sage advice on us - I know you've already busted 20 this go-around... I saw that Ribs with on the sub-20 classic thread, along with Tall (weird do see him surprising himself with a 19:XX 5K considering how fast he's running now)!

I know that Daniel's does have tempo runs in his schedule. I think most schedules do (except for maybe the CR schedules). Thing about Daniel's is that his phases seem to long for me - I mean, 18 weeks of track work? Yeesh. He does provide a suggested means of shortening the phases, but maintains that the 4, 6 week periods is ideal.

If I don't get near the goal off of base (I think it's likely that I won't get there off base-building, alone), I think I'll use one of Pfitz's schedules (from Road Racing for Serious Runners). They're a little shorter, with one track session per week, tempo runs here an there, and two progression-style long runs per week.

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garritat
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posted Dec-07-2005 09:50 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for garritat   Click Here to Email garritat     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I ran 19:09 at a local 5K last Saturday and I have been depressed all week. I was hoping to do a lot better. There is another race this weekend, but I don't know if I should enter. Perhaps I should just work on my mileage?

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JimR
Cool Runner
posted Dec-07-2005 09:58 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for JimR   Click Here to Email JimR     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by MaineRunner2001:
I'm still looking for a sub 20 minute 5K. I used to do it consistently when I ran cross-country as a Junior in High School (all time best 19:04). I'm 39 now, started running -again- when I was 35. Here are my pb's since I started: 2001 - 21:59; 2002 - 21:27; 2003 - 20:18; 2004 - 20:06; and 2005 - 20:04.

My 5K race times have leveled off. If I could bump my miles higher - from 30 to 50-60 I'd probably be able to do it. However, my wife complains that she misses me too much when I'm gone so long. Kind of a nice problem to have I guess. I really focused on it the beginning of this year and the year before. Next year I'm not going to stress about it - maybe that will work!

Here's a link to the old 20 minute thread. The first page is missing, but the rest seems to be there:

http://www.coolrunning.com/forums/Forum6/HTML/009714-2.shtml

Good luck all!


Gosh, I miss that thread.

Hey, I've got you beat by a whole second! (20:03) My first was 2001, 22:14. My PR was a month and a half ago. I think I'm out of chances this year but I'm hoping my Boston training will get me a spring sub 20 as a bonus.

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lamerunner
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posted Dec-07-2005 10:00 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for lamerunner   Click Here to Email lamerunner     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Assuming I can stay healthy, I would like to try this too. I am sort of a "has been" wannabe decent masters runner, but I rarely do speed work and my body is a bit unreliable(I have rheumatoid arthritis). My best time is 18:20 or so (. I don't remember exactly,) and it was 10-15 years ago when I was healthy and much younger. Last weekend I ran 21:30.

I am running 40-45 miiles per week but most at a comfortable pace. I suspect if I can work in some tempo runs and speed , I would have a shot a bringing the time down. Most of my running is early am, so it is kind of hard.

How much speed work is appropriate??

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stevebur
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posted Dec-07-2005 10:27 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for stevebur   Click Here to Email stevebur     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
SaintCroixRunner
Cool Runner posted Dec-06-2005 04:59 PM            
------------------------------------------------------------------------
GPS measured distance - and it matches with what I figured it would be, so I'm pretty sure it was accurate. So, maybe I'm ready for the breakthrough. I haven't raced a 5-K since Sept (when I ran the PR), and have been building the mileage steadily, so maybe I'm there.
I live on an island, so I won't get a chance to test again until the next 5-K in March.
The run did include two water stops lasting 30 seconds or so each during which I stopped the watch.
I was doing a progression run. Started out at 8:00s and worked down to an average of 7:00 flats for the last five miles.

sorry, i don't trust GPS measured distances much, but if you were doing a progression type run then you weren't going too fast overall. as others have said, if you can run the last 5 of a 13 miler at about 7:00 pace then an under 20:00 5K shouldn't be too difficult. go for one soon if you get the chance, and do it on a certified course so you can be somewhat reasonably secure in your result.

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Jim24315
Cool Runner
posted Dec-07-2005 03:13 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jim24315   Click Here to Email Jim24315     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by batfish:
Hi Jim24315!

Nice to have you drop in!


Thanks batfish,

I think I’m close enough to not be considered a ringer. I’ve had ten 5k’s in the past year and half of them have been slower than 20. For what it’s worth, I was at 21:30 exactly 1 year ago. At that time my mileage was in the 20’s and when I broke 20:00 four months later it was in the 40’s with a high of 50. Included were:

Seven 12-milers between 7:40 and 8:10 pace
Three 14-milers at around 8:00 pace
3 tempo runs between 4k and7k – avg. pace 6:50
A handful (5) of interval workouts with only a few reps each such as 4 x 1000, 6 x 400m, 8 x 200
Regular strides on easy days, e.g. 6 x 100, 8 x 100

For me, mileage was the biggest difference maker. However, there is no doubt that anaerobic work is critical to being successful at the 5k. There is a post by Andy Hass that is part of a thread leon2 has going now. In it he says:

“Aerobic work is what makes you an animal, speedwork polishes it off.” I like that.

I have Pfitzinger’s “Road Racing for Serious Runners” and “Daniels Running Formula”. Pfitzinger’s book is certainly easier to follow. I actually bought the books after I had run my sub-20. They are both excellent but if I was going to follow a book schedule I’d probably go with Pfitzinger’s for the sake of simplicity. No doubt Daniels is a genius but it takes a lot longer to digest everything he has to say. I'll have to give his book a few more reads.

A final thing that I hardly ever hear anybody mention is course selection—choosing the course you are going to race on. It is mind boggling to me how many people will train for many weeks, with a specific time goal, and then go race on some Pike’s Peak type course. That’s fine if you want a challenge or just enjoy that type of course. However, if you want to run a fast time you need to pick a fast course. That usually means flat. Also, I would make darned sure that it is accurate—preferably certified. Otherwise, how are you going to know how fast you ran?

Jim



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