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Sub 20-Minute 5-K


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Author Topic:   Sub 20-Minute 5-K
batfish
Cool Runner
posted Dec-27-2005 05:31 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for batfish     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
walking + jogging == wogging

(something in-between walking and jogging)

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mbannon
Cool Runner
posted Dec-27-2005 05:42 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for mbannon   Click Here to Email mbannon     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Is there a difference between wogging and wunning? (I'm kidding, PLEASE don't turn this thread into that kind of debate!).

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batfish
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posted Dec-28-2005 04:40 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for batfish     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I hope I didn't kill this thread - where is everybody?!

I ran about 1/4 mile or so at a 6:20-6:30 pace on today's run, just to see what I'm in for. It felt fast, but not so fast that I had to radically alter my cadence and normal running form - didn't feel like sprinting as I had feared!

I did feel a bit stumbly and awkward, though. I find that rythm and especially balance suffers as I approach my current 5K race pace (probably due to the fact that the only times I've run at that pace is during 5K races!).

I'm thinking that come spring, I'll take Kudzu's advice and start working on some form/economy repetitions. I can see the benefit of just getting used to running at faster speeds, if nothing else, so that I don't feel so 'on the edge' running at race pace. I reckon that running some 90 second 400 meter repetitions would make that 6:20-ish pace feel controlled.

Anyway, it looks like I'll hit my base mileage goals for the first time since starting 'base training' - 40mpw. I think I'll just hold right around that total until the snow melts and the trails clear. I'm thinking that I don't want to go much higher until I can run at least some portion of the miles on soft surfaces.

So, for me, it's a simple, steady diet of 40 mile weeks for the next couple of months. I'm currently eyeing a mid-march 5K that advertises itself as 'fast' - not for the goal race, but just to see where I am, fitness wise (and to get paces for reps and intervals, etc.).

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Jim24315
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posted Dec-28-2005 05:41 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jim24315   Click Here to Email Jim24315     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hey Batfish,

I've been checking it out. Just no pearls to add. It's great to see that you are back in stride. I wouldn't worry at all about the awkwardness as long as nothing hurts. I think you should do just fine off 40's for a while.

Good luck,
Jim

[This message has been edited by Jim24315 (edited Dec-28-2005).]

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BriRunner
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posted Dec-28-2005 06:52 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for BriRunner   Click Here to Email BriRunner     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I have been lurking as well. I'm currently building up my base, now up to about 25 mpw in 5 runs,at 8:30 pace. Long run at 8 miles. I plan to add some tempo runs in a few weeks. I need to do a 5K to get a current vdot to see if I can increase my easy pace and tempo/speedwork paces (I'm a Daniels guy.) Hoping to go sub 20 this spring.

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batfish
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posted Dec-28-2005 06:56 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for batfish     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Cool, Bri - I'm thinking about doing a Daniel's program, too. I like his p2 emphasis on repetitions and for economy. I think form/economy at race pace is one of my major weaknesses right now.

Pfitz's programs don't have much in the way of rep work - just strides of 100m.

Have you noticed that the pace chart for 5-10k runners has a faster 'easy' pace then the general pace chart given in chapter 3? Anyone know if that's an editorial mistake or if he really is prescribing faster paced easy runs for 5-10k runners?

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mbannon
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posted Dec-28-2005 07:01 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for mbannon   Click Here to Email mbannon     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I'm taking a month or two off to heal a possible stress fracture or damaged ligament or something. Joined the gym and am using the elliptical machine and the pool, plus bought some dumbbells for upper body strength.

I like to run on the track every week or two for the very reason you mentioned, batfish. When I don't, I feel a little bit out of control at the 6:00 to 6:15 pace. But by doing 200's, 400's, and 800's at that pace on the track I've become much more comfortable running at race pace and now have a "feel" for just how fast I'm moving.

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batfish
Cool Runner
posted Dec-28-2005 07:04 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for batfish     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Ouch - sorry you're banged up again, Matt! If you could stay healthy you'd bury us!

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MaineRunner2001
Cool Runner
posted Dec-29-2005 08:40 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for MaineRunner2001     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I have been reading this thread with interest too.

I am increasing miles after a few months of low mileage due to health issues (non-running related).

The last three weeks have looked like this: 12, 16, and 20. This week I am scheduled to run 24 (so far 12). All miles are slow - 10:00 minute miles sometimes slower.

With Thanksgiving and Christmas I have not done much with my lose 10 to 15 pounds goal, but feel I have accomplished something by not gaining. I weigh 169 and am 5'11.

Plan for next four weeks: 28, 30, 32, and then a cut back 24. All miles at the same slow pace - 10:00 to 10:30 minutes per mile.

Next 5K will not be until May.

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GTown Runner
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posted Dec-29-2005 05:39 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for GTown Runner   Click Here to Email GTown Runner     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I'm glad to have found this thread. Breaking 20 is a huge goal of mine. I'm 5'11" 180 lb 35 yo male. I almost made it back in Nov 2004 when I ran a 20:08 at the local Turkey Trot. I then suffered a knee injury (runner's knee) doing my first 20 miler and I have not been the same since. I have been off and on for most of 2005 and ran a 21:45 back in August as I struggled to run with no base.

I am now starting back slow after my most recent 4 week layoff. I do not want to suffer another relapse with the knee. I have just completed three 15 mile weeks and will ramp up to 20 this week. I hope to eventually and slowly get back to the 35 mile weeks I was doing in 2004.

I believe you guys will be very helpful in pulling me under 20:00. I was running 35 mpw in 04 but I have never trained with an organized plan other than the weekly long run (10-15). Other than that, I get a little 3,4,5 or occasionally a 6-miler in during the week whenever I could sneak it in. Sometimes get up at 4:45 to run, sometimes run at lunch, sometimes run in the evening. Whatever the kids schedule and work would allow. I need to get a bit more organized. I always figured the most important thing was to put the miles in the bank any way I could.

Goal race is in April. I may run some tune ups in March. I will concentrate on solid base work for the next two months.

Thanks for all of the useful information i've found so far in this post.

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BriRunner
Cool Runner
posted Dec-29-2005 09:05 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for BriRunner   Click Here to Email BriRunner     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Batfish: Are you using the new edition of Daniel's Running Formula? Mine doesn't have a separate pace chart for the 5k and 10k program. Just one, gives paces for easy/long runs, intervals and reps, based on vdot. Easy pace seems to be about 2 min/mile slower than 5k pace.

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batfish
Cool Runner
posted Dec-29-2005 09:44 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for batfish     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Bri
Yes - I have the 2nd edition (with Culpepper on the cover). The 5K-10K paces are based on 'current ability' (not VDOT) and present a range of times. These times are similar to the time presented in the paces per VDOT table, except for easy pace, which is faster.

[This message has been edited by batfish (edited Dec-29-2005).]

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batfish
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posted Dec-29-2005 10:00 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for batfish     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
ok - I found my DRF. So, assuming a 46 VDOT (21:25 5K), my 'easy' pace per VDOT (from pg. 52) is 9:07/mile.

Now, from table 19.2 (Training Paces for 5K to 15K runners - pg. 250), given a current 5000 meter 'ability' of 21:25, my easy pace is 8:12 - 8:42.

I prefer the second paces, as my 'natural' putting-in-the-miles running gait puts my right in the middle of that range, most of the time. I have to willfully slow down to run the 9:0X+ pace.

My theory is that the faster paces are intentional (JD just fails to explain) because running much slower than the prescribed easy pace range (for us medium distance folks) would force the runner into a gait that is too different from race gait, and thus, you won't be training the right muscles or coordination of muscles or something...

Weird, huh?

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[This message has been edited by batfish (edited Dec-29-2005).]

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BriRunner
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posted Dec-31-2005 08:42 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for BriRunner   Click Here to Email BriRunner     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I have usually in the past "cheated" on the easy pace training by about 30 seconds per mile faster than Daniels chart, because it felt natural to me. But I have been a high injury guy in the past, which might be attributable to my training pace. (I hope.) This year I am trying to be consistent in following Daniel's plan in hopes of avoiding injury. Surely I can become fitter if I can train continuously without the aggravating slowdowns and stoppages from injuries.

But I do find it interesting that Daniels has another pace chart for the 5 and 10K in the new edition. I'm going to go look at it in the bookstore.

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batfish
Cool Runner
posted Dec-31-2005 02:12 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for batfish     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Jim
Do you have a link to that Tinman base training strategery that you're discussing on that other sub 20 thread?

How many repeats are you supposed to do, for example and why does he throw that sort of a workout into base?

I hit 40 on the roads this week and survived (first time that I've hit anywhere near that volume on asphalt) and am just going to spend a few weeks getting used to the 40s.

Bri
What does JD have for easy pace for VDOT 46 in your edition? 9:07?

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[This message has been edited by batfish (edited Dec-31-2005).]

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Jim24315
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posted Dec-31-2005 04:11 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jim24315   Click Here to Email Jim24315     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Batfish,

Do you have a link to that Tinman base training strategery that you're discussing on that other sub 20 thread?

This is the only link I have. It is pretty general and does not describe exactly what I was doing. I got it from him directly and I know that he doesn't have a "one size fits all" approach. One thing I've noticed though is that 15k-HM pace and 5k pace plus 8% are about the same.

http://www.run-insight.com/traininganalysis-basetrn.htm

How many repeats are you supposed to do, for example and why does he throw that sort of a workout into base?

I was doing 4 x 1600 x 1min (or 200 jog) at 5k pace plus 5%. For tempo it was 4-5 miles at 5k pace plus 8%. Both workouts had some pickups (usually 4-5 x 100) at slightly less than 5k pace at the end. I'm not sure that I could explain why he does this during base. My speculation would be that it makes for a smoother transition into something more intenese later with out wearing you down. I can only tell you that I found the workouts to be stimulating, yet not difficult to recover from. Based on your 5k of 21:28, this would put your interval pace at 7:16 and tempo pace at 7:28. Does that sound tough? It very well might feel too easy but it is important to stay near the correct ranges until you have a race that supports something quicker. I know that it made me fitter after a few weeks of it. Sometimes I wish I stayed on it longer. I'm having a tougher time with the marathon schedule I'm on now.

I hit 40 on the roads this week and survived (first time that I've hit anywhere near that volume on asphalt) and am just going to spend a few weeks getting used to the 40s

No a bad idea at all, imo, you can get quite a bit into a 40-mile week. It is very adequate for 5k.

Jim

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runxc09
Cool Runner
posted Dec-31-2005 04:28 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for runxc09     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Sorry to join late but I want to run a sub-20 5k. I run xc in the fall and I want to break 20 on our home course. my PR from last season is a 21:15. From the beginning of cross country to the end, I took 3 minutes off my time so I am hoping to build on that. I don't want to plateau next season and I want to keep improving my time. My goal to at least break 21:00 early on next year and sub20 by the time I graduate but I have no idea on how to train. Hope to get some ideas, any help would be appreciated.

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BriRunner
Cool Runner
posted Dec-31-2005 07:06 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for BriRunner   Click Here to Email BriRunner     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Batfish: My old edition has 8:48 for vdot 48. 9:07 is for vdot 46.
(1998 edition)

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KudzuRunner
Cool Runner
posted Jan-02-2006 01:50 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for KudzuRunner   Click Here to Email KudzuRunner     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I'd encourage all runners in this thread to take a look at the writings of John Kellogg, if you haven't already done that. They can be found at the following URL:

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?board=1&id=192559&thread=192559]http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?board=1&id=192559&thread=192559

JK stresses several things that I've found immensely helpful in my own quest--now successful--to break 20:00: the importance of starting all runs very gently, easing into your easy pace, allowing each day's easy pace to "find itself" rather than trying to adhere to pre-established pace guidelines; the importance of working towards a high-end aerobic pace, holding it for a while, but NOT exceeding your threshold and moving into race-pace territory; the importance of alactic strides (20-30 seconds, max) several times a week during base training, to keep in touch with legspeed and ease the transition into harder training.

JK's essay in Kevin Beck's RUN STRONG (not to be confused with Michael Sandrock's excellent RUNNING TOUGH) is a lucid summary of his training philosophy. Track it down!

Brad Hudson's theories also appeal to me. He stresses the importance of various sorts of hillwork to build specific muscle strength even during the base phase. (The weakness of Hadd-style pure aerobic training is that it neglects this entirely.) He also stresses that the whole point of training, if you're planning to race, is--duh!!--putting you in a position to execute race pace for the race distance, building from an early season ability to run race pace at much shorter distances than race distance. In other words: if you're hoping for a sub-20 5K, 6:25 pace (19:57) is your holy Grail. It's important to run lots of base miles slower than that, and to run 20 minute tempo runs (i.e., race duration) at speeds 20-25 seconds slower than that. But it's also crucially important to familiarize yourself, make yourself intimate with and entirely comfortable with, 6:25 pace--AND 6:15 pace, and 6:00 pace: race pace, plus one and two notches faster than race pace. The key is, you don't have to run these faster paces for very long, certainly not early in the season. You simply have to demystify them, run 400s at them, begin to streamline your form at them. You don't have to run them to the point where you build significant oxygen debt. 800s at 3-5K race pace will begin to do that, but you don't need to start there. You simply need to run 60-90 seconds at 6:25 pace, and those two faster paces on a regular basis. Even some shorter strides, 30 seconds or so, at race pace + 2 (as I'll call it) will begin to alert your body to the demands you're later going to make on it.

Salazar's book on road racing makes this point. He talks about how in order to be able to run 10Ks at 4:20 pace, he has to be able to run interval miles at 4:10, which means he has to be able to run interval 800s at 2:00, which means he has to be able to run interval 400s in 56, which means he has to be able to run 200s in 26. (Something like that.) His point is that the faster, shorter intervals and the longer, slower, but still-faster-than-race-pace intervals all work synergistically with each other, and the short, fast stuff can't be neglected. I'm slowly starting to understand what he means. It's easy to put in lots of miles, even miles near your threshold, and work hard, and yet forget all about the importance of faster than 5K speed. If you're looking to PR at 5K, you can't afford to do this.

One final note: I'm absolutely loving a book called PROGRAMMED TO RUN. The authors name escapes me--Tom....drat. His whole thing is about the importance--a la Chi Running and the Pose Method--of a subtle forward lean and a toe-off slightly behind the center of gravity. Flat-foot landing rather than heel-strike. Visualize the cartoon Roadrunner: slight forward lean, faster cadence, light quick footstrike. The Pose Method always seemed too exaggerated for me, but this guy is onto something. Certainly my own running has benefitted overnight from attending to the subtle internal shifts that he describes in very evocative language. He analyzes photos of Kenyan runners and Jim Ryun, showing clearly what he means. The changes he suggests are even more subtle than he says, but as I've attended to arm carriage, forward lean (subtle!), pushoff point, and toe extension, I've felt noticeable lighter and more powerful. I've also begun to notice how I tend, when tiring, but also when running at 5K pace, to settle back onto my heels, pulling myself along with the help of my hamstrings rather than pushing myself along. My hamstrings have been chronically sore; PROGRAMMED TO RUN explains why.

[This message has been edited by KudzuRunner (edited Jan-02-2006).]

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KudzuRunner
Cool Runner
posted Jan-02-2006 02:12 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for KudzuRunner   Click Here to Email KudzuRunner     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Quick addendum to my previous post:

What I'm talking about--my own homegrown training philosophy--is what you might call "speed headroom." If you're hoping to run 6:25 pace for 3.1 miles, you can't spend all your time running a range of paces that are slower than that, show up on race day, and hope that 6:25 pace will magically appear in your arsenal. You've got to groove that particular pace, and in order to do that, you have to groove several notches faster than that pace. If you groove 6:25 pace but ignore 6:00 pace, 6:25 pace will feel shakier than it should be because you'll be maxing out at that pace; you'll be right on the edge of your form-envelope. You need to push the envelope back, away from your target 5K pace, smoothing off the rough edges at that faster-than-race-pace pace. This prepares you well--not only to run 6:25 pace with comfort, well within your form-comfort-zone (if not your anaerobic comfort zone!), but to surge and/or pick up the pace in the final mile.

There were no secrets to the 19:41 that I ran in mid-December, nor the 6:11 final mile I put in. Most of my training was easy mileage, some of which went down to half-marathon pace toward the late stages. I'd done a few tempo runs around 7:00 pace and some interval miles around 6:30-6:35 pace. But I'd also known that this wouldn't be enough. So I'd pushed the envelope with some shorter, faster stuff down to 5:45 - 5:50 pace. I didn't worry too much about exact distances of paces. And I didn't worry AT ALL about timing the rests between my fast bursts. My whole focus was simply to prepare my legs to feel smooth down to about 6:00 pace. Efficiency work, not anaerobic tolerance work. And that got me through. Fully tapered on race day, I discovered, to my amazement, that I had all the strength and speed I needed to do the job--and without lots of gut-busting anaerobic work. (When I do that sort of work, BTW, it consists of 3-4 times 3:00 - 3:30 hill repeats at V02max intensity--i.e., pretty hard, but not killer hard and not to excess.)

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BriRunner
Cool Runner
posted Jan-03-2006 06:03 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for BriRunner   Click Here to Email BriRunner     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thank you Kudzu for sharing that info. I checked out the link you gave to Kellog's material on Let's Run and it looks very good. I agree that to get to a goal race pace, you have to go there before race day. I've gotten a lot slower due to time off for injuries last year, and am now getting near the point of doing some tempo runs, and a little later, some speed work. I hit some sub-20's over the past several years, but only when doing as Kudzu suggests: getting some time in at race pace and below. I generally do my tempo runs and speed work on treadmills where I can be certain of the pace, and because I am injury prone.

Kudzu, I have enjoyed your posts elsewhere in CR, especially your thread on the sub 40 10K. I haven't made it to that yet, and may never. Keep sharing your experiences. They're inspiring.

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batfish
Cool Runner
posted Jan-04-2006 09:19 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for batfish     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks Kudzu, that's great stuff.

This is turning into a good reference thread, for the current and next wave of newbies!

I'm into my 2nd week of 40mpw on asphalt. I feel decent - a little tired, but thankfully, no aches or pains.

Can't wait to get going with some of the faster paced stuff, but I'm (trying to) toughen up a bit with these 40mpw on asphalt before transitioning into anything resembling quality... I might start throwing in some alactic strides, as Kudzu mentions, if I can find a soft area to run them (not likely in NH in Jan., but who knows?).

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KudzuRunner
Cool Runner
posted Jan-04-2006 04:23 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for KudzuRunner   Click Here to Email KudzuRunner     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Glad to be of help. New Year's resolution: talk less.

A quick meditation on strides, since I'm still learning how they work for me:

*) Don't run strides on sore legs. You're not helping anything.

*) Don't assume that strides have to reach a certain very fast / hard pace. They certainly shouldn't be run all out. They're simply a low-stress way of ensuring that you maintain legspeed and leg extension during periods, or after workouts, when you're running slower paces.

*) Here's what I did for strides yesterday. Last night, after three easy miles on rested legs, I paused, stretched, then did four strides. The first was simply a 30-second pickup to half-marathon pace--about 7:00 pace. I paused and walked for 30 seconds. The next three strides, each of which was about 30 seconds, were at 6:40 pace, 6:20 pace, and 5:40 pace. The fourth stride felt as smooth as the first, but was of course much faster. If I'd tried to run 5:40 pace on the first, I'd have felt rickety. After the fourth, on the other hand, I could certainly have busted something much faster--5:00 pace or below. But I saw no need to. I'd achieved my purpose, which was simply to gently and repeatedly remind my legs to keep the category "fast running" in their repertoire, without courting injury or pushing hard against my personal limits.

*) Less is more. Which is to say, quitting just at the moment when you find yourself hesitating about running one final stride is usually the right place to call it a day--unless you're trying to bring on a peak, in which case you may want to push past preexisting limits.

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runningsmarter
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posted Feb-19-2006 10:29 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for runningsmarter   Click Here to Email runningsmarter     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I was scheduled to run a 5k race today per my HM trng schedule and was going to try for my first sub 20. Unfortunately there weren't any 5k races in the area and our local track is still covered in snow.

So I did decided to run a time trial on the TM and shoot for a sub 20. Since the TM isn't the same as outside, this is just a first step in getting to the real thing but I did manage a 19:54 on the TM. Woohoo! According to effort, I could have probably run about 10-15 seconds faster but had a plan at the beginning and wanted to stick with it. It does have me psyched for this coming year!

Anyone else making some progress??

rs

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batfish
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posted Feb-19-2006 12:15 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for batfish     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
a little - weight's down another 5-6 pounds (now in high 160s) and weekly mileage has been consistently around 40. I'm still in 'base' training, and I haven't done any time-trials or races, so I'm not really sure where I am, but I do see more 7:XX miles in training than I'm used to seeing, and 'low seven' minute miles are starting feel only moderately hard, rather than very hard (yeah, I sometimes finish my runs at a faster pace than I probably should).

I'm just trying to get through the winter. Once the ground thaws and snow is no longer a thread, I'm going to give intervals a try. Then I should know how realistic a sub20 this spring, is.

Nice run, for you! It appears that all you need is the event, and you'll smash through the barrier with ease. Good job.

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