posted May-24-2007 03:46 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by joev9:
tchuck or tinman, got an interval question for you.

i ran this set of 1/2 mile (not 800m because it is on a measured bikepath instead of a track) intervals today:

1.5 mile w/u: 11:15,
1st 1/2: 3:05, 1:00
2nd 1/2: 3:07, 1:00
3rd 1/2: 3:07, 1:00
4th 1/2: 3:07, 1:30
5th 1/2: 3:09, 1:30
6th 1/2: 3:09
1.5 mile c/d: 13:12

it was 80+ degrees and sunny today (i.e., effing hot!). the warmest i have ran intervals this year was about 60 degrees and cloudy. i was worried about the heat but the workout was going pretty well. i was starting to feel the effects of the heat after #4 and increased the rest period by 30 seconds before #5 and #6. Those last two 1/2s felt pretty hard but not quite all out. my goal was to go a bit faster on these than CV intervals which I think for me would be around 3:15 or 3:17 or so.

my question is: do you think the extra rest before #5 and #6 compromised the workout at all?

i am pretty sure the answer is no because that extra 30 seconds recovery allowed me to keep the pace of those last 2 almost in line with the first 4, but just wanted some input.

thanks

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Joe,

No problem. Important to hit your goal times no matter how long a rest for this tough work out. Looks like a max v02 work out. What was your intended purpose? Or just a test?

I can't remember your 5K PR. What is your 5K speed now????

This work out was a cross between CV (1 min rest) and a max vo2 work out (faster pace). The fact you could finish it on a hot day with little rest between sets (at high intensity than CV) is a good sign for your fitness. I would suggest doing either the CV work out (slower with 1 min rests) or a true max vo2 work out (faster) but with half the distance in recovery or in this case 400M (or 2 min rest). This would allow you to keep even pacing and not have to rest longer for final reps. Going too hard without adequate rest recovery can be counterproductive short term and long term.

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Todd

[This message has been edited by Tchuck (edited May-24-2007).]

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posted May-25-2007 12:07 AM            

Wednesday: 7 1/2 Miles 2 Runs / First 3 mile run was on the treadmill at an 8:00 pace. I was completely out of energy and had to stop. After eating and several hours later I was able to set a PR on my home 4 mile road course. Last Mile was 6:49. It was very windy, but nice temp 55° f.

Thursday: 6 1/2 Miles Treadmill 1.0 % inline / Easy 8:00 pace / Weight Today 206 lbs

Friday: 3 1/2 Miles Treadmill 1.0 % inline / Easy 8:00 pace / Weight Today 208 lbs

Saturday: Spring Fling 5K in Miamisburg Ohio. 21:24 details below. Tied PR Temperature 50° f.

Sunday: 5 1/4 Miles Treadmill 1.0 % inline / Easy 8:00 pace

Monday: 7 Mile Trail Course 9:30 Pace The temp was 85° with 40% humidity. I felt really good and comfortable and finished really strong. When the run was over I felt better than I normally do after this challenging course and was surprised that I set a Yearly PR for the course. Toughest Trail Course In Ohio

Tuesday: 8 1/2 Miles Two Runs / First run was a PR for my 4.1 mile Twin Creek Trail Run. I ran 1:30 faster than my previous best. This was also in 85° and 40% humidity. I wanted to run a long run today but because of the heat waited to run in the evening. / The second run was just as hot later in the evening with the temperature at 87°. I ran a comfortable pace (7:49) on a 4 mile road run. Weight today was 204 lbs and 23.5 % fat. Current streak is 14 days for 74 Miles.

Wednesday: 5 1/4 Miles Treadmill 1.0 % inline / Easy 7:53 pace.

Thursday: 3 Mile Trail Course after 1 mile warm up / 88° and 51% humidity probably slowed me down a little. I still set a PR for the course by 25 seconds. I ran the course in 24:04. If I was watching my watch I probably would have been under 24:00. This is a really tough course especially the last 800 meters all up hill with a few steps. Because of the temperature and tough course, It was probably one of my Best runs of the year.

[This message has been edited by runwalkjog (edited May-25-2007).]

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posted May-25-2007 04:18 AM            

It was a 2-lap course so only had an idea on pace at the halfway point.

[This message has been edited by stormywaters (edited May-25-2007).]

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posted May-25-2007 08:51 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Tchuck:
Joe,

No problem. Important to hit your goal times no matter how long a rest for this tough work out. Looks like a max v02 work out. What was your intended purpose? Or just a test?

I can't remember your 5K PR. What is your 5K speed now????

This work out was a cross between CV (1 min rest) and a max vo2 work out (faster pace). The fact you could finish it on a hot day with little rest between sets (at high intensity than CV) is a good sign for your fitness. I would suggest doing either the CV work out (slower with 1 min rests) or a true max vo2 work out (faster) but with half the distance in recovery or in this case 400M (or 2 min rest). This would allow you to keep even pacing and not have to rest longer for final reps. Going too hard without adequate rest recovery can be counterproductive short term and long term.

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my 5K PR is 19:45 and I ran a 20:03 on May 5. i think i am faster now as i have run 35, 38, and am running 41 miles this week, all new weekly highs. been feeling much faster lately and almost all my workouts have been at a faster pace with the same effort level as before. i'm running a 4 miler on July 4 and a 5K on July 15 and am hoping for a big PR then. i might run a 5K on June 22nd, but not sure on that one.

i was definitely going for more of a max VO2 workout. i probably should have done all of them with 1:30 or 2:00 rest given the heat. probably would have been able to drop those last two down near 3:05 or so. oh well. i was definitely feeling the effects of that workout on my morning run today. legs felt pretty dead but not totally spent.

i think i am going to go back to doing the CV intervals but 6x1000 (instead of the 1/2 mile) with the 1 minute rest. i really like the short rest because i feel like i can keep my pace even from run to run because the rest is so short i keep that pace feeling going.

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posted May-25-2007 09:51 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by runwalkjog:
How does my typical week compare to yours trying to break 20:00? I have made great progress cutting about 6:00 off this year. I could not even run a 5k without walking last August.

Wednesday: 7 1/2 Miles 2 Runs / First 3 mile run was on the treadmill at an 8:00 pace. I was completely out of energy and had to stop. After eating and several hours later I was able to set a PR on my home 4 mile road course. Last Mile was 6:49. It was very windy, but nice temp 55° f.

Thursday: 6 1/2 Miles Treadmill 1.0 % inline / Easy 8:00 pace / Weight Today 206 lbs

Friday: 3 1/2 Miles Treadmill 1.0 % inline / Easy 8:00 pace / Weight Today 208 lbs

Saturday: Spring Fling 5K in Miamisburg Ohio. 21:24 details below. Tied PR Temperature 50° f.

Sunday: 5 1/4 Miles Treadmill 1.0 % inline / Easy 8:00 pace

Monday: 7 Mile Trail Course 9:30 Pace The temp was 85° with 40% humidity. I felt really good and comfortable and finished really strong. When the run was over I felt better than I normally do after this challenging course and was surprised that I set a Yearly PR for the course. Toughest Trail Course In Ohio

Tuesday: 8 1/2 Miles Two Runs / First run was a PR for my 4.1 mile Twin Creek Trail Run. I ran 1:30 faster than my previous best. This was also in 85° and 40% humidity. I wanted to run a long run today but because of the heat waited to run in the evening. / The second run was just as hot later in the evening with the temperature at 87°. I ran a comfortable pace (7:49) on a 4 mile road run. Weight today was 204 lbs and 23.5 % fat. Current streak is 14 days for 74 Miles.

Wednesday: 5 1/4 Miles Treadmill 1.0 % inline / Easy 7:53 pace.

Thursday: 3 Mile Trail Course after 1 mile warm up / 88° and 51% humidity probably slowed me down a little. I still set a PR for the course by 25 seconds. I ran the course in 24:04. If I was watching my watch I probably would have been under 24:00. This is a really tough course especially the last 800 meters all up hill with a few steps. Because of the temperature and tough course, It was probably one of my Best runs of the year.

[This message has been edited by runwalkjog (edited May-25-2007).]

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Others may disagree, but you seem to be running most miles fairly fast in relation to your 5K times. I know treadmill running (even at 1% incline) is a bit easier (no wind, hills, etc) but 8:00 miles are still fairly quick to be running several days a week. Then the trail run was also fast, especially for trails.

I would slow down some of those faster paced runs and do a bit more specific tempo/interval work 1 or 2 days a week.

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posted May-25-2007 10:27 AM               

quote:

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Originally posted by Docster:
Others may disagree, but you seem to be running most miles fairly fast in relation to your 5K times. I know treadmill running (even at 1% incline) is a bit easier (no wind, hills, etc) but 8:00 miles are still fairly quick to be running several days a week. Then the trail run was also fast, especially for trails.

I would slow down some of those faster paced runs and do a bit more specific tempo/interval work 1 or 2 days a week.

---

I strongly agree

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posted May-25-2007 11:26 AM               

I also strongly agree you are training too fast. You don't need to be focused on running PRs in your training only your racing. An easy pace for you is closer to 8:45 - 9:00 pace. At 8 min pace you are running fairly hard. It will catch up with you. You have to balance easy days with harder days. Other than 1-2 harder work outs per week, most of your miles should be closer to 8:45 pace or about 1:45-2 min slower than 5K race pace.

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Todd

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posted May-25-2007 11:50 AM            

Your "easy" pace of 7:53 - 8:00 per mile is faster than mine, and I just ran a PR of 19:30 last week. I looked up your VDOT (see this table) and it is 46. That corresponds with an easy/long run pace of 8:48, which you get by plugging your VDOT into this table.

So I think what you're doing is running too many of your runs at hard tempo or race pace. Slow down your easy runs to around 8:30-9:00 mpm. Make one run per week a tempo run. Your tempo pace should be around 7:17 per mile, by the way, based on your VDOT. That's slower than your 5k pace!

Another thing I noticed is that you don't do any long runs. Take one day a week and build up to at least 90 minutes of running in one shot (i.e., not split into a 2-a-day).

Racing 5k's provides a good VO2 Max workout. You can also get similar benefits with less stress (which means quicker recovery) by running 5x1000 on the track at your Daniels' I-pace, which is 4:12 per 1000. Take around 3 minutes recovery between intervals. An alternative is to run Tinman-style critical velocity reps. TChuck is a big proponent of these, and they certainly work. You can read more about CV reps in this article. Note that you would do CV reps instead of Daniels-style VO2 Max intervals, not both.

So, to sum up, here's what I think you need in a typical week...

• One long run
• One tempo run
• One CV or VO2 Max workout
• All the rest at easy pace
  

Now, keep in mind that I am not an expert by any means. I'm just a guy who recently started learning all this stuff and discovered for myself it really works. I invite any of the more experienced posters to critique my advice and provide your own.

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posted May-25-2007 12:53 PM            

A difference I believe needs to be made is you actually do need more speedwork. Try to have two easy runs a week, a long run, a tempo run[or fartlek], and three interval sessions. Start the intervals at longer distances, up to a mile, and do less repitions. A good example is 4xMile with a full rest, each a little faster than your expected 5k pace. Nearing the race, cut a few miles off your long run and make it quicker, a little lense intense than your regular tempo run but about 3 miles longer. Also, in the weeks leading up to the race, cut your intervals to 800 and 400 meter repeats, without full rest, at a fast pace. This will train you mentally and physically to deal with the fatigue you'll soon face. Good luck.

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posted May-25-2007 01:05 PM            

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posted May-25-2007 03:07 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by joev9:
holy crap, three interval sessions per week!??! must be nice to be in HS, i really miss those days...

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not that he's bragging or anything

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posted May-25-2007 04:17 PM            

What happened to the hard easy rule

I'll have done 3 hard sessions this week (2 races) that is a lot for me.
Guess i'm old

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posted May-25-2007 06:07 PM            

This isn't an insult to any of you that do follow these plans, im trying to stress the point that if you want to get the next level, you'll need tried and true hard work.

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posted May-25-2007 08:28 PM            

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posted May-25-2007 10:02 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by charlieeee:
I don't do three, I do five, but that's in season. The hard easy rule has been proven insufficient to get great results countless times, it's simply a way to cop out of the really hard work you have to do to get to your goals. Sure, you'll see results. But they won't be as good or as quick if you follow the proven methods. That is the reason for the lull of American distance running we experienced; everyone was saying that "low mileage but done smarter" and "hard easy" was the way to go. If you want to stick the the sub-par performances, stick with the alternating intensity plan.

This isn't an insult to any of you that do follow these plans, im trying to stress the point that if you want to get the next level, you'll need tried and true hard work.

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Your coach makes you do 5 hard runs a week? Or do you take it upon yourself to do that?
Believe me you won't be able to do that when you are in your 30s.

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posted May-26-2007 12:17 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by charlieeee:
I don't do three, I do five, but that's in season. The hard easy rule has been proven insufficient to get great results countless times, it's simply a way to cop out of the really hard work you have to do to get to your goals. Sure, you'll see results. But they won't be as good or as quick if you follow the proven methods. That is the reason for the lull of American distance running we experienced; everyone was saying that "low mileage but done smarter" and "hard easy" was the way to go. If you want to stick the the sub-par performances, stick with the alternating intensity plan.

This isn't an insult to any of you that do follow these plans, im trying to stress the point that if you want to get the next level, you'll need tried and true hard work.

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Coming from someone who said just a few days ago they couldn't run 10 miles (paraphrasing?) I'll withhold judgement. What are those proven methods, exactly? You are going against some of the best coaches of the last 20 years, mind you. It had better be good. Or, you had better run a sub 13:30 5K.

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posted May-26-2007 07:48 AM               

quote:

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Originally posted by charlieeee:
I don't do three, I do five, but that's in season. The hard easy rule has been proven insufficient to get great results countless times, it's simply a way to cop out of the really hard work you have to do to get to your goals. Sure, you'll see results. But they won't be as good or as quick if you follow the proven methods. That is the reason for the lull of American distance running we experienced; everyone was saying that "low mileage but done smarter" and "hard easy" was the way to go. If you want to stick the the sub-par performances, stick with the alternating intensity plan.

This isn't an insult to any of you that do follow these plans, im trying to stress the point that if you want to get the next level, you'll need tried and true hard work.

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Charlie, sorry to say, I don't agree here. The problem with American HS running is they interval the kids into the ground and then when the runners--the ones who survive mind you--go onto college, they get annhilated by the Kenyan imports. Why? Because the Kenyans have an aerobic base out the ass.

Now, I do think that the "hard/EZ" paradigm is typically pretty good, but what constitutes EZ is open for debate. FOR instance, I know a few coaches who use the following sched for their post collegiate runners at 5k-12k specialists:

M: Speed Enhancement OR Anaerobic Capacity intervals depending what pt. in season
T: Aerobic Running w/ drills and weights
W: Fartlek or VO2 development
R: Aerobic Progression run in the hills going down to Steady State Pace 15% weekly vol.
F: Recovery Runs + Drills
SA: Tempo OR Race
SU: Long Run EZ, 20% volume

Mind you, this with 90-120 mpw. There's one EZ day; but this addresses the physiological needs of the event. To interval HS kids who probably operate at high levels of oxygen debt for most of the workouts--it's a recipe for underdevelopment.

NOW: if we're talking about spring track at the 800m, maybe a different story...SLIGHTLY

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posted May-26-2007 03:58 PM               

Today I took a vivarin and an hour later went to the track to see if the caffeine would help my performance.

I ran 4800 meters in 19:46.

I do not know if the Vivarin helped or not. I don't think it hurt me so maybe I can try one before my next race in 6 days.

Lap one was 1:33
800 meters in 3:08
1600 meters in 6:22
I still felt okay but was tiring.

2400 meters in 9:39
3200 meters in 12:59

Thats when I lost the desire.
With a race in 6 days I didn't want to do too much hard running.

My 5th 800 meters was run in 3:34.

The final 800 meters was 3:13.

I am pretty darn close to the sub 20.
My 1600 splits were 6:22, 6:37 and 6:47.

Finding the right pace is the key.
I think the 52 mile week hurt my chances of a sub 20 today but if I had completed the last 200 meters I would have been around 20:30 today and I will take that.... PerhapsI started a little too fast today.

[This message has been edited by MichiganFlyer2 (edited May-26-2007).]

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posted May-26-2007 04:45 PM               

In any case, that was a strong run. Surely you can break 20 in a race. If the one in 6 days is going to be your big try, I'd just run easy until then, but not take days off completely.

Congratulions on the 52 miles. I predict you'll go sub-20 next week, with or without Vivarin. Good luck.

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posted May-26-2007 05:28 PM            

Day 1: 12 miles hard
Day 2: walk 1 mile

The schedule tusca gave is accurate. I'm only doing 5 intervals before peaking. I am mainly a 400-miler guy, so I don't do much distance besides in XC.

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posted May-26-2007 06:47 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by charlieeee:
...i don't mind because I'm not running in college, competitively anyway... I'm only doing 5 intervals before peaking. I am mainly a 400-miler guy, so I don't do much distance besides in XC.

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Okay, that makes more sense...

But, you won't go on to run in College? 16s can put you in DIII schools with some financial assistance, assumming that's of interest to you...

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posted May-26-2007 08:38 PM            

It's just too competive, I'm going to Oregon University, which is D1, and if anything I'll only do track, but I won't be able to make the team and will probably redshirt, but I'd like to focus more on my career since I'm not going pro.

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posted May-27-2007 06:35 PM            

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posted May-27-2007 07:21 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by charlieeee:
The hard easy rule has been proven insufficient to get great results countless times, it's simply a way to cop out of the really hard work you have to do to get to your goals.

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You don't believe in the hard and easy program? Looks like you're educating yourself. Very good Charlieeee. Me Neither. How old are you now?

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posted May-27-2007 07:26 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by tuscaloosarunner:
Kenyan imports. Why? Because the Kenyans have an aerobic base out the ass.

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I'd like to correct you if I may. The Kenyans have an aerobic base out of their wazoo

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