posted May-08-2007 11:28 PM            

I'm psyched; that's a new PR and the first time I've broken 20. Conditions were perfect -- sunny, 66, and best of all...NO WIND.

Despite my PR, I paced it horribly. I ran the first mile in 6:08 and slowed from there. That actually makes me feel even better, because with proper pacing I should be able to go a little faster.

Anyway, I'll write up a proper race report tomorrow. Catch you guys later!

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posted May-08-2007 11:49 PM               

About your training schedule, considering that you have a 5k race this weekend (not sure which day - that makes a small difference) and a 15k the following weekend (again, knowing the day of the race makes a difference), I suggest that you do the following:

Run 3-4 x 1k at CV pace today or tomorrow, 2-3 mile warm up and cool down, including some striders at 3k to 1600m pace, jogging equal distance as the pickup for recovery.

Run the 5k race this weekend and do a decent length cool down - like 30 minutes. Later in the day, run another 30 minutes. Go as slow as you need to, but if you feel good you can let the pace move up to a moderate level.

Run an easy, but not long run the next day.

Then, 4 days before your 15k race, do a 1 mile warm up and then something like 3 x 3 miles at a pace 1:30 seconds per mile slower than yoru 5k race-pace. Rest 3-4 minutes between each 3 mile rep. Hydrate and be sure to stretch a bit if you need to . Do a 1 mile jog cool down and including abou 4 pickups of 20 seconds at 1-mile pace, jogging 40 seconds between each. Run easy on the other days and not too long.

I do NOT suggest that you drop your miles from 35 to 24. That is totally unnecessary and probably counter-productive. Just eliminate the hard stuff - fast stuff that is extended - between the two races and that is sufficient to allow your legs to recover.

Remember, your legs do NOT have to feel "bouncy" in order for you run distance races well. Such and idea is common but fallacious! A 5k race is about 75% endurance, 20% strength, and 5% speed, overall. A 15k race race is about 90% endurance, 8% strength, and 2% speed. Your body needs the distance work more than it needs to hammer the speed!

Take care and good luck!

Tinman

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posted May-09-2007 05:01 AM               

This was yesterdays workout as I prepare for Sunday:

2.25 mile warm up – 19:28 – (8:38)
Avg HR 126 / Max HR 133

8 x .25 mile Intervals w/1:00 recovery

2.48 miles – 19:22 – (7:48)

1:22 - avg hr 126 / max hr 147
1:22 - avg hr 142 / max hr 155
1:26 - avg hr 146 / max hr 157
1:24 - avg hr 146 / max hr 158
1:25 - avg hr 147 / max hr 158
1:26 - avg hr 147 / max hr 159
1:27 - avg hr 148 / max hr 159
1:22 - avg hr 152 / max hr 163

2.25 miles - cool down - 19:48 - (8:48)

Avg HR 132 / Max HR 140

The headwinds yesterday were brutal and I am sure each of these would have been a good 2+ seconds faster and I had even thought of running them on a straight stretch of road instead of the local high school track. I thought better of that figuring this would help toughen me up for those races that you have to run into the wind. I really had to kick it in for that last 1:22! My legs feel great this morning so I am hoping for a good time on Sunday.

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posted May-09-2007 08:09 AM            

Thanks for the post tinman. I will run the workouts as described.

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posted May-09-2007 08:28 AM               

I am fairly sure you have a 19:30 in you soon on a good course. For me, 66 degrees and sunny would cost me a bit of time but as much as I love warm weather, anything over 55 degrees seems to slow me a bit especially above 5K racing.

Your races and practice racing will continue to help you race better and smarter. Good job.

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posted May-09-2007 08:38 AM               

Can't wait to read your full race report. Once again congratulations and keep it up.

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posted May-09-2007 09:38 AM            

I am going to have to try your 5 X 1k intervals you have been doing.

I haven't done much speedwork or tempo at all. I did a couple 8 x 200 meters in 45 seconds this past week with 1 minute jogs in between. Those were to get me used to 19:00 5k pace.

Maybe I should try 5 X 1000 tonight to see how 3:55 feels. I am going to attempt the 1:30 rest. I think I can handle this bu twe will find out I guess.

Cant wait to read your race report.

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posted May-09-2007 02:01 PM            

Since then I've run over 1600 miles, ~97% of which were easy miles while training for my 2 marathons. My last 5K race was Sept of last year, and I ran 23:42.

Since then I've run a 3:34:45 marathon in February (my first) and 1.5 weeks ago I ran a 3:30:46 at the Country Music Marathon in Nashville on a much harder course than in February. This also included a 3 minute stop to hit the porta-jon. *sigh* So my watch time was 3:27:47, which I was happy with as it was at least 70 degrees out and I had a stitch the past few miles.

In March, 4 weeks after my first marathon, I ran a 4M race in 27:27, which predicts a 21:00 5K. This course was hilly. Of course, they all are around here.

So, I'm getting there, to make a long story short. I'm still around 197 pounds at 6'2", and my target weight of 185 in the next few months should help immensely.

Ironically, a 20 minute 5K predicts out to a BQ for me as well, so that should be interesting as I have a fall marathon where I would like to BQ if things fall into place. That is my ultimate goal, but if I can run a 20 minute 5K in the next 12 weeks, then I'll be very happy.

I have a 5k this Friday, and I'm shooting for a sub 21:15, but I'm not sure if my legs have fully recovered from the marathon on 4/28. I ran one mile of an easy 6 miler run last night in about 6:40 to test the legs, and they resonded ok. Not great, but better than I expected.

The hardest thing for me right now is that after training for marathons (and just getting a base down after losing 40 pounds) is to run so hard. Sounds odd, perhaps, but until I start doing more speedwork running sub 6:45 miles feels crazy. Yet, I can imagine running 7:30 for probably 15 miles, if not more. Does that sound crazy?

To you recent sub 20 guys/gals...grats, grats grats!

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posted May-09-2007 04:13 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by MichiganFlyer:
Congrats Dakota!

I am going to have to try your 5 X 1k intervals you have been doing.

I haven't done much speedwork or tempo at all. I did a couple 8 x 200 meters in 45 seconds this past week with 1 minute jogs in between. Those were to get me used to 19:00 5k pace.

Maybe I should try 5 X 1000 tonight to see how 3:55 feels. I am going to attempt the 1:30 rest. I think I can handle this bu twe will find out I guess.

Cant wait to read your race report.

---

Hi MF - 1:30 rest between 1000s at that pace sounds low to me. I think you need more like 3 minutes between intervals. This is about the pace I run for 1200 intervals and I take about 4 mins in between (based on Daniels' training plan).

If you're at about 20:30 now and aren't doing intervals and tempos, then you'll probably have no problem hitting 20:00 soon if you introduce them to your schedule. I was at 21:18 last fall and just hit 19:57 this past weekend. Good luck!

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posted May-09-2007 06:46 PM            

Bob, yes, it looks like we're almost even right now. Here's to breaking 19:30 very shortly for both of us (I hope)!

Michigan, I agree with sheski that you will have no problem breaking 20 once you add some intervals and tempo work. I also agree that 1:30 rest is too little for the 5x1000 workout on 3:55. I believe I was making a mistake by resting so little for such hard intervals several weeks ago. In fact, I couldn't complete that workout when I tried it recently.

I think there are two schools of thought on this. One is the pure, Daniels-style VO2 max interval workout, which is what I am doing now. That would be a workout like 5x1000 on 3:55 (for a 19:57 5k runner) with around 3 minutes recovery. The second is the Critical Velocity interval workout, which I recently learned about (thanks to TChuck, who referred me to this article). Tinman is a big proponent of CV reps. They're basically splitting the difference between VO2 max interval pace and tempo pace, and (here's the 2nd big difference) the recovery time is much lower, like 1-1.5 minutes, I believe. Tinman or TChuck, feel free to correct me if I've gotten any of this wrong.

I think both strategies work, and both probably have their pros and cons. But I think it's a mistake to combine the Daniels-style VO2 max intervals with the Tinman-style CV recovery time. If you do that, the workout becomes almost a race intensity, and it may take too long to recover for your next workout. Again, just my relatively uninformed opinion!

Docster, welcome to the thread! I am seriously impressed with your race times, especially considering you weighed 216 just last August. You've obviously got great endurance. The speed will come much quicker once you start working it. One thing that helped me to transition from "every run is an easy run" mode was to start adding strides to each run. That would be 20-30 seconds at a faster pace mixed into your regular running, repeated 6 times or so, with full recovery in between each one. Strides feel really good, too, I discovered.

Sheski, congrats on your recent sub-20!

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[This message has been edited by Dakota Ridgerunner (edited May-09-2007).]

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posted May-09-2007 08:32 PM               

VO2 max intervals are much faster and require longer recoveries between reps than CV intervals.

If you run at VO2 max pace (which is actually a bit faster than Jack Daniel's Interval pace) it is necessary to use about equal recovery times to rep times.

If you use CV intervals, which I created in 1989, then you need only about 1 minute of recovery per 1km run. The pace is slower and therefore not remotely as difficult as VO2 max reps. Therefore, shorter recovery times are not only possible but realistic.

Take care,

Tinman

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posted May-09-2007 10:10 PM            

Tinman, can you give a quick explanation of the benefits of running CV reps and tempos instead of Daniels' intervals and tempos? I've liked the Daniels' combination so far but am certainly open to new ways to improve

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posted May-09-2007 10:13 PM            

I'm impressed by your progress since August. I am very near where you were then (wieght wise and 5k time) as I've been injured the first 4 months of this year and am finally starting to do runs with no pain.

Would you share a bit of your story, what kind of mileage progression since August, etc.? I think that 25:00 5k to 3:30 26.2 is incredible in such a short time.

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posted May-10-2007 07:32 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by sheski:
Hi MF - 1:30 rest between 1000s at that pace sounds low to me. I think you need more like 3 minutes between intervals. This is about the pace I run for 1200 intervals and I take about 4 mins in between (based on Daniels' training plan).

If you're at about 20:30 now and aren't doing intervals and tempos, then you'll probably have no problem hitting 20:00 soon if you introduce them to your schedule. I was at 21:18 last fall and just hit 19:57 this past weekend. Good luck!

---

Thanks for the heads up. I must be getting smarter as a runner as well because last night I decided against doing 5 X 1000 intervals as it seemed like I wasn't ready to do it then.

Instead I did a 4 mile tempo run.

Splits
7:10
7:05
6:54
6:25

Total time was 27:34.

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posted May-10-2007 08:36 AM            

Thats why i am very impressed with Docster, i'm afraid my first marathon didn't go to plan (5:19) due to disrupted training, not enough long runs and i should have done more. But hey next time (2008)

Thats why this year concentrating on 5kms i get the chance of doing at least one 5km each month (plus the occassional 10km) get my time down. But after my marathon hardly did any training end of april after 3 weeks training ran 28:13 slow i know.
Next aim to get back under 25 minutes, then work to get under 20 minutes at some stage.
Its people like you that give us slower runners a bit of encouragement to think i can do this. I have put on weight since not running so am working at losing that, currently 142 lbs female almost 39. When i got my sub 25 i was 20lbs lighter (can't believe i've put that much weight on)

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posted May-10-2007 11:04 AM            

1. Desire
2. Belief

If you want it badly enough (#1), you will train for it and do whatever it takes. And if you truly believe you can do it (#2) you will stay positive and motivated.

So go out there and do it! We'll be rooting for you.

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posted May-10-2007 12:22 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Cottonwood Trail:
Docster,

I'm impressed by your progress since August. I am very near where you were then (wieght wise and 5k time) as I've been injured the first 4 months of this year and am finally starting to do runs with no pain.

Would you share a bit of your story, what kind of mileage progression since August, etc.? I think that 25:00 5k to 3:30 26.2 is incredible in such a short time.

---

Thanks Cottonwood! I'll start with my running log, which hasn't been updated yet this week, but has pretty much every run since last August (My 25+ minute 5K was late July, actually).

Here is my log: http://www.coolrunning.com/cgi-bin/log/display.cgi?u=Docster;s=run4life

Also, if you notice, quite a few of my runs are with my wife, so the pace (and HR) is much lower. I think this has helped me stay mostly healthy.

Ok, here goes my story:
Last May, I weiged 240 pounds (6'2"), smoked....cholesterol was 240, if not higher. I didn't want to know, regardless. I swear I could *feel* my heart trying to push blood through my arteries.

We had a contest at work to see who could lose the most weight in 8 weeks. Silly stuff, but I was ready to make a lifestyle change. I figured this would be good motivation.

People in the contest asked me what my "goal" was for the contest. (they were thinking "goal weight", naturally) My reponse was simply: "To not be in this contest next year". While I didn't lose the most weight, I'm really the only one who not only didn't gain any weight back, and continued to lose another 20 pounds on top of the 25 I lost during the contest.

I was running about 3 miles at a time....way too fast. Much too hard. After a few months (July/August) I bought a HRM, and started slowing down. (mostly following MAF training) For a new, overweight runner, clearly this makes sense. Anyone who suggests doing speedwork for their first marathon is crazy if you ask me. Maybe if you are 5'9 and 155 pounds, sure.

Per the log, I ran a 10K in late September in 49:17 (7:57 pace) so by about 30 miles a week I really started to see progress. I was getting stronger, and obviously my lungs were getting healthy. I was about 208 for that race.

3 weeks later I ran a 15K. I was hooked. Ran it in 1:14:xx (8:03 mile). Well, time for a half marathon, obviously. I was up to 35 to 40 mpw by now...slowly but sure. Weight was 205.

2 weeks later I ran a 1:44:03 half marathon. 7:57 pace. WOW! The week before the race I hit 45 miles of training, with a long run of 15 miles I think. That was the key for me.

Next up, I ran the Myrtle Beach Marathon in February per my first post. (3:34:45) Negative split, even! Weight was ~199.
The key for me was 270 miles in January. Almost all of them were nice and easy, except for 2 progressive paced long runs. (finishing the last 3rd at marathon pace) I also included a 10-12 mile medium run during the week, which I think was a great compliment to the long run.

For this summer, I'm going to try to mix in 5K's with marathon training, so we'll see how that goes. If nothing else, I'll use the 5K's as my fast speed work, and then sprinkle in some tempo and hill work.

Honestly, had I not come across this board, I would probably be running 25 miles a week and injured more often than not. The knowledge I've gained from the much wiser and more experienced people on this board has been more valuable than any pair of shoes or training plan.

I'll be sure to post my 5K results for the race tomorrow. Anything close to 21:00 would be great for me on this course.

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posted May-10-2007 12:42 PM               

I'm doing that too. It's a pretty fast course for Charlotte but watch out for a pretty sharp hill in the third mile as you head back uptown. also 86 degrees forecast which isn't ideal! it's a great race though, lots of people good atmosphere, etc. good luck!

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posted May-10-2007 03:17 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by mainers:
an inspiring story docster! I presume the 5k you are referring to is the Twilight tomorrow evening?

I'm doing that too. It's a pretty fast course for Charlotte but watch out for a pretty sharp hill in the third mile as you head back uptown. also 86 degrees forecast which isn't ideal! it's a great race though, lots of people good atmosphere, etc. good luck!

---

Yep, that's the one! I couldn't remember how hilly it was (walked/ran it last year), but it was fun, and really got me started into road races. Certainly it is no worse than the 4 miler in March as far as hills.

We are also looking at a chance for rain, so hopefully it's not too humid....

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posted May-10-2007 03:49 PM            

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posted May-10-2007 04:49 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Cottonwood Trail:
Thanks Docster. great story, you must be nearby (Charlotte area?). I'm in upstate SC and have done some of the same races you have/are doing now. Keep it up!

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Yep, Charlotte area.

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posted May-10-2007 05:52 PM            

The desire is there. I will get there i know

Let you know how i get on

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posted May-12-2007 08:22 PM               

You ask about CV and Tempos (probably meaning Tinman Tempos).

CV originally meant Critical Value pace, something I created while taking a graduate level statistics course in 1989. I had compiled a lot of data from both my own running and from the collegiate runners I was coaching. At the time, I was trying to pinpoint an intensity level that would opitimize training for the distance runners and middle distance runners I was coaching.

I had a hunch that about 4-5 seconds slower per 400m than 5k pace was perfect for training runners to clear lactate faster than anything else. I ended up finding that I was very close, but it varied just a little - and the reason it varied was due to the performance level of the athlete. A 14:23 5k runner would have to run more seconds per 400m slower than a 20:23 5k runner.

Later, I realized that I could combine my goal of creating the best possible intensity to elevate lactate threshold while still invoking a stimulus to elevate VO2 max. It was, logically, just above true LT but below VO2 max. In the early 1990s, I started using calculus to derive that particular intensity and pace. By the latter part of the 1990s, I pinpointed it exactly and allowed a small range of variance because in real life runners face changing circumstances.

While coaching one of my 5k runners in 1992, I had trouble communicting what Critical Value pace meant to him. He just didn't get it. He asked questions about how fast it was compared to his race times and so I simply told him the velocity was about 5% slower than 5k pace or about 4 seconds per lap slower than his 5k pace at that time. That he understood! So, from then on, I started calling it Critical Velocity instead of Critical Value pace.

(The Critical Value term was one we were using in that graduate statistics course - Critical Value being that which must be met. You simply did the computations and looked the chart supplied to see if their was agreement or disagreement.)

CV is a pace just above LT but not too high to flood your body with lactic acid. It "Pulls" your LT upward instead of pushing it upward. It has very effective - actually more effective per unit time at improving LT than actual LT pace.

Additionally, CV is just high enough to excite fast twitch type X fibers (formally called B fibers) to elevate their ability to consume and use oxygen to generate ATP for work. IN effect, fit runners must use sufficient training intensity to elevate VO2 max, and the science research over the years has shown 90% of VO2 max to be the lower limite of intensity for fit runners). IT so happens that CV is just barely above that intensity.

So, as you might have surmised, CV pace not only improves LT a lot (more than actual LT pace), it elevates VO2 max for fit runners. As I have always said, CV "hits two birds with one stone," to paraphrase Ben Franklin.

Tinman Tempo running (TTR) is set so that Slow fibers are maxed out in their capacity before fast twitch X fibers have to be called into play at a high level. TTR is set at an intensity which rides just below LT. Therefore, it can be run for a long time before fatigue reduces pace. It has a great ability to maximize fat useage too.

Most people think that they must run slow to work on their fat burning capacity. Sure, running slowly will do that. But, in truth, the actual fastest burning rate of fat is not run at a slow pace. Rather, it is at an intensity just below LT.

Some coaches might tell you to run at Marathon Pace because it helps you build endurance or what have you, and that is great, but it is untrue to that running at MP will necessarily be optimal - in particular as it relates to maximizing endurance enhancement of slow twitch fibers and supporting LT enhancement. That's because MP varies from runner to run. A slow runner plodding along at MP is not really maxing out endurance development because the intensity is too long - perhaps 70-75% of VO2 max. A fast marathon runner will elevate their aerobic endurance enormously by running at MP because it is just barely below LT (more in the low to mid 80% of VO2 max).

So, to solve that problem, once again I revereted to calculus and derived a particular, specific intentsity, and because of the formula I made the pace for each runner relative to that intensity instead related to MP. Therefore, it is the same intensity for all runners, whereas running at MP is not at all the same intensity for runners, unless they are all about the same pace in a race.

Must go!

Take care,

Tinman
runfastoach@gmail.com

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posted May-13-2007 01:36 PM               

Yesterday I ran my 5k measured course outside in my neighborhood alone. I still run 90% of my miles on the treadmill so it was good to run outside for once.

I was thinking at 1st to try and break 20:00 but that was making me feel quite queasy inside.
So I decided to run the 1st mile controlled and miles 2-3 I would attempt to keep the fast 180 stride rate going. That made me feel alot better about attempting the 5k route.

I started out at a decent clip but within myself. I was aiming for around 21:00 for 5k distance. I was quite surprised to hit 1/2 mile in 3:12. So I slowed up some and I was also running into the wind (15mph) and I hit a mile in 6:35. I felt very good at 1 mile so concentrated on my quick strides.

I hit 1.5 miles in 9:51. I hit 2 miles in 13:09. I started to feel tired then so I had to make a real effort to keep it going in the last mile. I hit 3 miles in 19:48 and finished my 5k in 20:28.

I was very surprised. I guess letting myself float on the 1st mile and not run it hard helped me alot on a 6:34 second mile that was not as hard as I would have thought it would be. And 20:28 was only 6 seconds from my PR set last week in a road race. Yesterday I was all alone and not trying to run a fast time. I am getting close to my goal no doubt. Pacing is going to be important to find the right mile starting pace...

My splits

6:35
6:34
6:39

[This message has been edited by MichiganFlyer2 (edited May-13-2007).]

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posted May-13-2007 05:53 PM            

Some background: After injuring my knee years ago, I started jogging again the fall of 2002. It was occasional, probably never more than 10 miles in a week. Then I started training in Jan 2006 for an Oct marathon. Had some injuries related to interval training, but recovered and wound up running only slow miles. Finished the marathon in 4:32 (Denver). Then I ran a turkey trot 4mi at 8:00 pace. I've kept running since then, though mostly easy and not training for anything. Last weekend I ran a 23:38 5k (7:36 pace). I maintained 2-2 breathing all the way.

So, given that I have to drop my pace to 6:26 (70 sec drop), do you think I'm looking at something achievable this fall, next year, in a couple of years?

Also, I'm 41 yr. male. 6' 7" and about 217.

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