| Author |
Topic: Sub 20-Minute 5-K |
bobscamman
Cool Runner |
 posted May-02-2007 01:37 PM
   
I traveled to Brunswick after work on Monday to run the Hot Pursuit 5K Course that I will be running this Sunday. I wanted to get some idea just how flat and fast this course really would be. It is indeed as advertised, FLAT. Take a look if interested: http://trail.motionbased.com/trail/activity/2609854 Cloudy & 54 Degrees 3.07 Miles according to Garmin - Hot Pursuit 5K Course -
1st run I used as a Tempo Run 22:13 - (7:13) Avg HR 144 / Max HR 154 7:37, 7:09, 7:01, :26 Second running of the course as a warm down - 3/08 Miles 24:04 - (7:48) Avg HR 144 / Max HR 154) 7:56, 7:53, 7:40, :33 Both times I ran it Garmin measured it at almost 3.1 miles, but they could be starting further back in the parking lot to make up the difference, I couldn't see any marks and I know that the course has been certified. I felt pretty good and gained a bit of confidence, I would say that if things go well a sub 20 may very well be in the books on Sunday. ------------------
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Dakota Ridgerunner
Cool Runner |
posted May-02-2007 04:53 PM
I ran a 20:11 last night. You can read the race report either here or on my blog.That's nearly a minute off my time three weeks ago, when I ran 21:08 under pretty nasty conditions. Since the course is all dirt and usually has headwinds, I feel confident that I'm in sub-20 shape right now, given a fast course. So, I'm definitely making progress! Less than 4 weeks to go before my main goal, a sub-40 10k. I'm feeling a little better about it now. OldXCguy, great job with your 20:40. It sounds like you were once really fast and are on your way there again. To answer your question, here's a summary of my schedule right now: - Running 4 days per week, totaling 30-32 miles
- One long run of about 10-12 miles
- One 5k race
- One 20-minute tempo workout at 6:51 pace
- One interval workout: 5x1000 in 3:55 with 3 minutes recovery It's a lot of intensity on not a lot of miles, but so far so good. I put the plan together based on Daniels' Running Formula. Bob, good luck in Brunswick this Sunday. It's a great confidence builder to know the course, and now you know it well. Don't worry if your Garmin is off by a few tenths of a mile during the race...it won't be as accurate as a certified course, so trust the race organizers over the GPS. I hope to see your post here Monday morning saying you got the sub-20! ------------------
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MichiganFlyer
Cool Runner |
posted May-04-2007 07:30 AM
Nice hard running Dakota.I have my 3rd race of the year tonight.
Temps around 68 winds 10-15 mph not bad at all. My last race mile time was 6:47 and I lined up away from the front (7 seconds before I crossed the starting line)...then I weaved throgh the crowd. So I was probably around 6:35 mile pace last race...with a nice downhill to open tonights race I am looking for a mile time of between 6:20-6:30. I am not going to gun it on the 1st mile but make an effort to relax yet get a relatively fast mile time. I want to feel okay when I hit the mile point. Mile 2 I will have to keep the legs turning over trying for 180 strides per minute. If I lose focus and start overstriding it will hurt more. I will foxus on the halfway turnaround cone. When I hit the halfway cone I will focus on running to the 2 mile mark. I hope to convince myself that 1/4 mile is only 1 lap on the track so I want to split the 2nd mile into segments of "I can run to this point as long as I relax and run smoothly" The 3rd mile I ran very well last race so I am not that concerned of losing focus here. The 1st part is downhill but the last 2 blocks are up the steep hill I descended at this race's beginning. Looking for finish of better than 20:30 which is my PR.
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bobscamman
Cool Runner |
posted May-04-2007 09:06 AM
Dakota: first thanks for the encouragement, and I am familiar that my Garmin won't be as accurate as the certified course so that really isn't a bother to me. I even found out this morning that they changed the course so I ran it backwards this past Monday..oh well no big deal. I will probably run it erly Sunday as a pre-race warm up if I feel real good. Other wise I'll just do a shorter warm up and go for it anyways.I read your race report, you did a great job holding it together the way you did. That is a pretty nice PR on that course and it looks like you are right on track. I read that article as well and have given it a little bit of thought, still not sure though but it seemed to have worked pretty well for you. MichiganFlyer; good luck on your quest this evening, I hope you get that PR. It sure looks like you have a good plan, I'll be looking for your race report. ------------------
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Dakota Ridgerunner
Cool Runner |
posted May-04-2007 10:49 AM
MichiganFlyer, you have a solid race plan. I like that you're focusing so much on the 2nd mile. I always find that's where I lose most of my time. You have adrenaline in the first mile, plus it doesn't hurt that much yet. And in the final mile you're on the homestretch, focused on the finish line. But that 2nd mile it's easy to lose concentration.One thing about turnover. You said you were going to focus on getting 180 strides per minute. That's great, but if you practice that turnover rate in your everyday runs (even easy/long runs), you'll do it automatically and you won't need to even worry about it. I trained myself a while back to do that, by counting strides for 30 seconds during my runs. Now I check every once in a while and I'm always right on. I think it helps a lot. Good luck tonight. I think breaking 20:30 is a great psychological boost on your way to a sub-20. At least, it feels that way to me!
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[This message has been edited by Dakota Ridgerunner (edited May-04-2007).]
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Tchuck
Cool Runner |
posted May-04-2007 11:59 AM
Nice race Dakota. I agree you held up pretty well considering a windy mile 2. On easier course you break 20 no problem.BTW, I am totally against the start 6% faster than goal pace in a 5K. I think you are closer to running a 6:15 pace than you think which helped you hold pace alright. ------------------
Todd
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MaineRunner2001
Cool Runner |
posted May-04-2007 12:05 PM
Looks like there have been quite a few 20:xx times lately. Those are fast 5K's. Good luck to everyone racing today and this weekend. I too look forward to reading the reports. I hope that there will be some 19's.bobscammans - your race is in my neck of the woods. I am on-call for work this weekend, so will not be able to race. I plan to race the Seadog's 5K May 13. I believe you will be there. Maybe we will bump into each other. ______________ I have implemented tinman's and tchuck's advice: Last Sunday (April 29), I ran a 10-mile run: the first seven around 9:00 minutes per mile, and the last three around 7:30 pace. That was a rainy day! This Sunday I plan to do the same thing, but with better weather. I have done two CV rep workouts: Last Saturday (April 28), I did 2 X 1K @ 4:15 with 1:00 recovery on a track. I followed that with 3 to 4 minutes easy then 2 X 200 @ 40 seconds with a minute or so recovery. That was the day before the long run, which may have not been too smart, but with schedule and weather, I did not have a choice. I did another CV rep workout last night (Thursday May 3). I did 3 X 4:15 with 1:00 recovery. I could not use the track because it was in use, so ran on a flat stretch of road. I followed it with four easy minutes then 3 X 40 seconds with a minute recovery. I believe I got the paces correct so the 4:15 covered 1K and the 40 seconds covered 200 meters. I have tried to speed up my other runs too. I did a four miler and a five miler at 8:30 pace, but have also ran a couple other four milers between 9:00 and 9:30 pace (recovery). Good running all
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bobscamman
Cool Runner |
posted May-04-2007 12:56 PM
quote:
Originally posted by MaineRunner2001:
your race is in my neck of the woods. I am on-call for work this weekend, so will not be able to race. I plan to race the Seadog's 5K May 13. I believe you will be there. Maybe we will bump into each other.
MaineRunner2001: there is nothing I would like better than to meet another coolrunner. I will be at the Seadog's 5K on Mother's Day (I always run this one in my mothers memory). We'll have to touch base towards the end of next week. Hope to see you there.
------------------
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MichiganFlyer
Cool Runner |
posted May-04-2007 02:12 PM
So I been thinking about my race strategy.4.5 hours till race time. Everything seems to be going very well.
I feel good. Fresh legs. Good weather. I want to beat 20:30 tonight. I realize its not going to come easy just because I put in the training.
I still will have to work for it. Every stride must have a purpose.
To eat tenths of seconds off the clock. I cant be likw a wildman though
and come out of the gates flying. I have to run smart and hard. Mile 2 is going to be the key. When I hit mile 1 I am going to tell
myself "this is where the race starts" and focus on driving hard for the
2nd mile. My 1st cross country race my senior year I ran a 20:30 and thought I would break
20 that year....I never beat 20:30 again in the next 9 or 10 races I failed.
I was too pumped for race 1 and blazed the course. It bothers me that I still
have not beat that 16 year old record. 20 is secondary....20:30 is the goal tonight. I have the fire to beat it.
Of course when you get to the course and start to race strategy flies out the window.
You feel tired and fatigued and say "I just wanna finish"
Bull crap. I am going for that record. I need to slap myself if I get whiny out there.
Remind myself how good it will feel to come home with a 20:29. I smell a record....Im hungry for a record. Sorry I wont be able to post my report until Monday.
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Dakota Ridgerunner
Cool Runner |
posted May-04-2007 02:19 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Tchuck:
Nice race Dakota. I agree you held up pretty well considering a windy mile 2. On easier course you break 20 no problem.BTW, I am totally against the start 6% faster than goal pace in a 5K. I think you are closer to running a 6:15 pace than you think which helped you hold pace alright.
Thanks, Tchuck. In spite of the fact that the 6% faster start thing appeared to work for me, I'm not convinced. I've always tended to believe that even pacing or slightly negative splits are the way to go. And I think a lot more research supports the latter. But non-goal 5k races are a good place to test yourself and try new things, so I figured why not try something new. If nothing else, I learned more about how I feel at those intensities. I didn't realize I could maintain that intensity for so long (the final mile). I had another solid interval workout this morning. The goal was 5x1000 on 3:55 with 3:00 recovery. I'm using a VDOT of 50 right now. I had no problem making this, and felt capable of doing more of them, faster, or with less rest. Probably not all three together, though! I came in at - 3:56.0
- 3:54.9
- 3:54.3
- 3:52.4
- 3:52.9
I wish I could find a table that predicts race times based on interval workouts. Anyone know of such a thing? ------------------
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bobscamman
Cool Runner |
posted May-04-2007 02:24 PM
quote:
Originally posted by MichiganFlyer:
I want to beat 20:30 tonight....I cant be likw a wildman though and come out of the gates flying. I have to run smart and hard.Mile 2 is going to be the key..."this is where the race starts" and focus on driving hard for the 2nd mile. 20 is secondary....20:30 is the goal tonight. I have the fire to beat it. I smell a record....Im hungry for a record.
MichiganFlyer...boy I can feel your nerves right now man. You know what you have to do now go out there and do it. I think that NOT going out too fast in that first mile will be just as important to your success as focusing on driving hard during mile 2. If you do that you are going to be successful and that 16 year old PR will be toast! Good luck my friend and may we both have good posts come Monday morning! ------------------
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bobscamman
Cool Runner |
posted May-06-2007 04:08 PM
I did it and here is a link to my race report:http://www.coolrunning.com/forums/Forum13/HTML/009857.shtml Short version for those not interested in reading my long report: Official Results: 19:43 (6:20) Overall 9/248
1st Law Enforcement Finisher So my goals were met and I am TIRED! ------------------
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lyndenrunner
Cool Runner |
posted May-06-2007 04:17 PM
I ran a 19:35 yesterday and I'm running on a faster 5K course next week.My fastest previous was last fall,a 19:58.------------------
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Tchuck
Cool Runner |
posted May-07-2007 09:55 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Dakota Ridgerunner:
I had another solid interval workout this morning. The goal was 5x1000 on 3:55 with 3:00 recovery. I'm using a VDOT of 50 right now. I had no problem making this, and felt capable of doing more of them, faster, or with less rest. Probably not all three together, though!I came in at - 3:56.0
- 3:54.9
- 3:54.3
- 3:52.4
- 3:52.9
I wish I could find a table that predicts race times based on interval workouts. Anyone know of such a thing?
That work out is solid, I did a 5 X 1K work out within my long run this past week at 4:05 per 1K w/ 1:45 min rest. When I train for 5Ks my rest is about 1 min only during these reps This is a critical velocity pace Tinman created for me based on my current 5K time. Your work out looks like it is at 5K pace. Tinman can predict a time for you but you will need to rest much less between sets (more like a minute). He has his own charts. www.therunzone.com ------------------
Todd
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MichiganFlyer
Cool Runner |
posted May-07-2007 10:06 AM
Nice going Bob!
I hope I can reach that point before too long.I did manage to break my PR as well this past Friday running a 20:22.Here is my race report. http://www.coolrunning.com/forums/Forum8/HTML/010078.shtml
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Dakota Ridgerunner
Cool Runner |
posted May-07-2007 01:05 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Tchuck:
That work out is solid, I did a 5 X 1K work out within my long run this past week at 4:05 per 1K w/ 1:45 min rest. When I train for 5Ks my rest is about 1 min only during these reps This is a critical velocity pace Tinman created for me based on my current 5K time. Your work out looks like it is at 5K pace. Tinman can predict a time for you but you will need to rest much less between sets (more like a minute). He has his own charts. www.therunzone.com
TChuck, I'm a little confused...you're talking about reducing recovery time between sets, but this article by Tinman seems to say the opposite: http://www.therunzone.com/IntervalRecoveries.html Maybe we're talking about two completely different types of interval workouts? I believe you're doing the Tinman "Critical Velocity" reps? I'm not sure what those are, exactly. I'm doing Daniels-style VO2 max intervals. Incidentally, Daniels recommends recoveries close to or equal to the workbout time. That's why I chose 3 minutes recovery for my 1000m intervals (I could have used 3:55 recovery, but that seemed excessive). I couldn't find the part where Tinman predicts 5k times based on track workouts. Can you give me a link? ------------------
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Tchuck
Cool Runner |
posted May-07-2007 02:10 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Dakota Ridgerunner:
TChuck, I'm a little confused...you're talking about reducing recovery time between sets, but this article by Tinman seems to say the opposite:http://www.therunzone.com/IntervalRecoveries.html Maybe we're talking about two completely different types of interval workouts? I believe you're doing the Tinman "Critical Velocity" reps? I'm not sure what those are, exactly. I'm doing Daniels-style VO2 max intervals. Incidentally, Daniels recommends recoveries close to or equal to the workbout time. That's why I chose 3 minutes recovery for my 1000m intervals (I could have used 3:55 recovery, but that seemed excessive). I couldn't find the part where Tinman predicts 5k times based on track workouts. Can you give me a link?
Dakota,
Yes, they are different work outs. You are trying to focus on building aerobic power where longer recoveries are necessary. Critical velocity (see below) is a bit slower and is a pace between "power and threshold" that helps build a bit of both. It is the pace I train most at and I do very little true aerobic power work other than 3-4 X 200M after my other quality work. Tinman doesn't show his charts. He can tell you a work out to do and then predict your time. Ask him on his forum. http://www.peakrunningperformance.com/docs/Critical_Velocity.htm Below is some general info from Tinman. It was cut and pasted by HHH on letsrun. It isn't HHH writings. Awesome stuff!
http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?board=1&thread=465522&id=465827 ------------------
Todd
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runfastcoach
Cool Runner |
posted May-07-2007 08:28 PM
I clicked on the link that TChuck just present on page 23 about my words on CV training. I guess the method of capturing my posts somehow changed it to HHH for everything. Though it doesn't say Tinman to the left of each post, it's my words, its what I typed. Anyway, I am honored to have been "captured" for posterity! Thank you very much!By the way, did somebody have a question they need answered? I'll stop by later to see if I can be of help. Take care, Tinman
runfastcoach@gmail.com
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MaineRunner2001
Cool Runner |
posted May-08-2007 08:27 AM
Thanks tinman -I am racing this Sunday (a 5K) and next weekend (Sunday May 20 - 15K). The 5K has been planned for quite a while. I was talked into the 15K, but am looking forward to it. Any suggestions about scheduling workouts? I have been running two hard workouts a week - a 10 mile long run (first seven EZ pace, last 3 at Tinman tempo pace.) I last did that workout Sunday, May 6. The other hard workout is CV reps - 1000 K at your suggested 4:14 pace with 1:00 recovery followed by 200M striders. My thought is to do a CV workout tonight - 3 X 1000K @ 4:14 with 1:00 recovery followed by 2 or 3 X 200M @ 40 seconds with 1:00 recovery. Do the 5K this weekend followed by seven EZ miles. Skip the CV workout next week, and run the 15K at Tinman tempo pace (~7:30 for me). The week of the 15K is my next scheduled cutback week, so I planned to skip the CV rep workout that week, and drop weekly miles from my normal 35 to 24.
________________ Another question: how is your training going? I hope all is well. quote:
Originally posted by runfastcoach:
By the way, did somebody have a question they need answered? I'll stop by later to see if I can be of help.
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bobscamman
Cool Runner |
posted May-08-2007 10:09 AM
quote:
Originally posted by MaineRunner2001:
I am racing this Sunday (a 5K) and next weekend (Sunday May 20 - 15K). The 5K has been planned for quite a while. I was talked into the 15K, but am looking forward to it.
Hey there MaineRunner2001 - this sounds like what happened to me. Would your 5K be the Sea Dogs 5K on Mothers Day? And would the 15K be the Sugraloaf 15K? I too had planned on running the Sea Dogs 5K and was talked into running the 15K as more of a "long run" which we always do on Sundays anyways. We are going up to support a friend who is running the marathon and plan on going back after we finish the 15K to help bring him "home". Hope to see you at one or both of these races. ------------------
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Dakota Ridgerunner
Cool Runner |
posted May-08-2007 02:07 PM
TChuck, thanks for the info. I read the article on CV intervals...good stuff, and now I know what you're talking about when you throw that term around.  Michigan, excellent work breaking a 16-year old PR! That has to be a great confidence booster. You're getting closer and closer to the sub-20 now. Bob, great preparation led you to a new PR as well. Congrats! I've got another 5k tonight...will report back here. ------------------
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bobscamman
Cool Runner |
posted May-08-2007 02:15 PM
Thanks Dakota and best of luck in your race tonight, we'll be looking for that race report.------------------
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MaineRunner2001
Cool Runner |
posted May-08-2007 02:22 PM
Bob - I will be at the Sea Dogs 5K and the Sugarloaf 15K. I will look for you at both. quote:
Originally posted by bobscamman:
Hey there MaineRunner2001 - this sounds like what happened to me. Would your 5K be the Sea Dogs 5K on Mothers Day? And would the 15K be the Sugraloaf 15K? I too had planned on running the Sea Dogs 5K and was talked into running the 15K as more of a "long run" which we always do on Sundays anyways. We are going up to support a friend who is running the marathon and plan on going back after we finish the 15K to help bring him "home".Hope to see you at one or both of these races.
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MichiganFlyer
Cool Runner |
posted May-08-2007 02:51 PM
Maine Runner..you ran a 20:24 your last race pretty similar to my 20:22. My time seems like I was still a ways off from a sub 20. Since I just ran a hard race I will attempt to give some advice.I hope you will scout out the course and run it (slowly) before your race so you can get familiar with it. Knowing the start and finish are very important. You want to take off seconds in that last quarter mile with a sub 6:00 mile effort for that leg. Also you need to race agressively in an effort to cut seconds from every portion of the course. Start up front and try to run the shortest route (cut corners). If it is windy draft off other runners. Don't run defensively (try to not get a bad time)....run offensively (go for a record) BUT ALSO RUN SMART (you know what pace is too dangerous for you by now). The biggest key may be to RELAX. When running my record 5k the other day I was hurting but when I asked myself how bad the pain level was, it really wasn't that bad (I rated it 5 on a scale of 1-10), RELAX.
Dakota....you ran a 20:11...I think you said you felt you were a way from a 20:00 5k as well. Know the course and you can shave those few seconds off. A little speedwork should put you under the 20 barrier. Its good to see people finally breaking the 20....most people who post on this thread go away and do not make it.
Just run your best race. You will have doubts along the way. Relax and run to the best of your ability. If you are in record race shape you will be there at the end. And most of us are in 20 shape now so we need to believe in the training and keep pushing to shave those seconds. Angrek had a 20:04...closest of the bunch. Man it hurts to run times like these so then you got to amp yourself up for the next race to ready yourself for the pain again plus one. I think once we break 20 the mystery will be gone and we can do it again and again. Interested to see what BOBSCAMMON can do on his next race after his 19:43.
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MaineRunner2001
Cool Runner |
posted May-08-2007 03:43 PM
I agree with Michiganflyer. Knowing the start and end of races is key. I have been burned a few times in the last few minutes of racing by the "when's this thing going to end" thought repeating and repeating in my mind. Knowing the course - especially the last 200-800 meters is useful. The 5K Bob and I are doing this weekend has a unique ending: you run into the Portland Seadog's baseball stadium and finish near home plate. The Seadogs are the Boston Red Sox's AA affiliate. If interested here is the course. Check out the ending with satellite or hybrid view: http://www.usatf.org/routes/view.asp?rID=17400
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