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Sub 20-Minute 5-K


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Author Topic:   Sub 20-Minute 5-K
d3finition
Cool Runner
posted Feb-11-2007 10:46 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for d3finition   Click Here to Email d3finition     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Ok guys just a quick question what MPW were you guys at when you broke 20min 5k?

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Tchuck
Cool Runner
posted Feb-11-2007 12:54 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Tchuck   Click Here to Email Tchuck     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
20 - 25 miles per week for me (19:23). Still at 20-22 mpw currently.

Just did a 20:01 yesterday in frigid (-2) conditions. 40 sec. faster than last year. With extra clothes, cold and 5-6 lbs of winter weight gain, I feel breaking 19 min. this year is a possibility.

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[This message has been edited by Tchuck (edited Feb-11-2007).]

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Jim24315
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posted Feb-11-2007 05:44 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jim24315   Click Here to Email Jim24315     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Seven months after taking up running in my 30's, I ran my first 5k in 18:18. Mileage for the 4 weeks leading up to it were 44, 46, 50, and 50.

More recently, after starting over in my late 50's, it took 13 weeks averaging 41 miles, with a high of 50, to do it the first time (19:43).

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Lngbrdr
Member
posted Feb-11-2007 07:25 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Lngbrdr     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by d3finition:
Ok guys just a quick question what MPW were you guys at when you broke 20min 5k?

I'm new to this site but figured for my first post I'd post here since I just broke 20 minutes.

To answer your question I was averaging around 12-14 mpw for all of about a month and a half. I had a peak week of 17mpw. I also had not done any real speed work. If it makes a difference I'm 20 y/o but never ran cross country.

My previous races:
11/05 5k 23:30 - First race ever just ran a couple times a week not even anything close to a 5k.
1/06 5k 23:07 - Same training as before nothing seroius.
11/06 5k 20:35 - At most 10-12mpw for about 2 months.
1/20/07 5k 19:41 - 12-14 mpw for a month and a half no real speed training.

Considering how many miles some of you put in I'm probably not the best to give advice on this site, it probably is just genetics considering I haven't really done much in the way of training. I have a race this saturday and am looking for a sub-19 minute. Since the last race I have increased my mileage to around 19-21mpw and began do some real speed work. Still trying to get used to the speed workouts, I am probably doing them too fast.

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MichiganFlyer
Cool Runner
posted Feb-12-2007 07:35 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for MichiganFlyer     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I ran 32 miles a week for 8 weeks at age 33 and could not quite break 20. This year I hope to get up to around 40 miles per week and I think that will be the lucky number.

As you run more years I think that helps....so if you run 30 miles a week and are in your 3rd year of running you will do better than running 30 miles a week in your 1st year.

This past Friday I ran 2 miles in 11:58 on the treadmill. If I can run like that outside I will beat 20 right now on about 35 miles a week.

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Jim24315
Cool Runner
posted Feb-12-2007 01:05 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jim24315   Click Here to Email Jim24315     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
MichiganFlyer

Super run on treadmill. If you can duplicate that on the road you can run well under 20 minutes for 5k. Just think--you could take 8 minutes to run the last 1.11 after those 2 yoiu just did and still get under 20.

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MichiganFlyer
Cool Runner
posted Feb-12-2007 02:40 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for MichiganFlyer     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Jim24315:
MichiganFlyer

Super run on treadmill. If you can duplicate that on the road you can run well under 20 minutes for 5k. Just think--you could take 8 minutes to run the last 1.11 after those 2 yoiu just did and still get under 20.


Thanks. I used to post on here all the time but soon realized my times were not getting better. I was obsessed with breaking 20 and not focusing on enjoying the runs. Now I try not to post or read too much. I focus on running lots of miles slow. Since December I have broken the following records

2 mile, 3 mile, 4 mile, 5 mile, 6 mile...I tackle a new attempt at a PR every 2-3 weeks and in between run 10:00 miles but lots of them.

I found breaking the shorter distance records to be harder because I have been doing almost no speedwork. But the 2 miles in 11:58 qualifies as speedwork to me so now I am tuning in the faster speeds. I cant run a sub 12 two miler outdoors. I estimate I would be between 12:20-12:30 for 2 miles with the wind and no pace help with the treadmill.

I am looking to race on April 7...if I break 20 then so be it...I am just using that April 7 race as a tuneup to the April 22 racing season when I hope to race 4 five-k races within a month.

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bonesheal
Cool Runner
posted Feb-12-2007 07:40 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for bonesheal     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Treadmill times don't translate directly to outdoors, but if you put it on a 1% incline for speeds between 8:10 and 5:00 minutes/mile, I think you'll come pretty close physiologically (provided your treadmill is calibrated correctly). I know a treadmill is supposed to be easier, but I personally feel like I'm making a greater effort to run similar paces on the treadmill. I'm sure it's mental, but unless it's <20 degrees or I have childcare needs, I'll do it outside.

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d3finition
Cool Runner
posted Feb-14-2007 02:20 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for d3finition   Click Here to Email d3finition     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Pardon me for asking too many questions for I am relatively new. But from what I see here you guys break 20min 5k in about 25 to 50 MPW. I am curious on what kind of training do you guys do on these mileges? Speekwork (intervals etc) or aerobic base training or a mix of both? Or do you strictly do base building for a few months then change over to speed work another another few months before the race?

d3finition

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Tchuck
Cool Runner
posted Feb-14-2007 09:47 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Tchuck   Click Here to Email Tchuck     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
For me it meant less speed work or fast intervals and more strong aerobic miles, longer tempos, and critical velocity reps.
I think the CV reps helps a lot w/ 5K racing. It just depends on your miles per week as to how much speed work you will do. Also, it is nice to have a goal race to work towards.
http://www.peakrunningperformance.com/docs/Critical_Velocity.htm

The speed work on my low miles eroded my base and I could never finish strong in races. During race season, I just race and do a tempo or CV work out weekly and I get stronger and faster. You can't race regularly and still hammer intervals. You will get stale.

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MichiganFlyer
Cool Runner
posted Feb-14-2007 10:32 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for MichiganFlyer     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
A 20 minute 5k is 6:27 per mile.
That may sound fast but you do not need SPEED to run this pace which equates to about 9.6 MPH.

You need endurance.
Almost anyone can run 9.6 MPH for 100 meters.
You just need to increase the distance that you can run that 9.6 MPH.

I bet your top speed is around 15 MPH so you already have the speed to run a sub 20 5-k race. You can train for speed all you want and I don't think you will get much faster in terms of your top speed.

You need to run lots of slow miles to develop the capallaries which bring increased oxygen and physical fitness. This also helps your confidence as you feel better when you run. Once you have the base it is very easy to develop speed...probably within 2 weeks you can be significantly faster by doing some interval or tempo runs. I don't run all my runs slow. Every 2-3 weeks during base I run a race because I am sick of running slow. This makes the races fun as something new and I usually crush my old times by doing this.

I have broken all my records from 2 miles - 6 miles doing no speedwork. Just racing every 2-3 weeks with 90% of my runs at 10:00 per mile pace. If I do speedwork will I get faster? More than likely yes...but as long as my times keep dropping with no speedwork I will keep doing what I am doing.

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mainers
Cool Runner
posted Feb-14-2007 10:53 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for mainers   Click Here to Email mainers     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
d3finition

i would agree with Michigan Flyer that if your goal is to beat 20 minutes then building your aerobic endurance is the initial key. so build up to as much easy mileage as you can comfortably handle, throw in some striders on some of your runs to get the legs moving faster.

however, for significant improvements beyond this then you will need to be introducing speedwork into the mix

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Jim24315
Cool Runner
posted Feb-14-2007 11:58 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jim24315   Click Here to Email Jim24315     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Agree with much of what's been said. Most of your gains are going to come from improving endurance and raising lactic threshold.

Like Tchuck, I believe that CV intervals are great. If you don't feel like wading through the technical defintion, it works out to roughly your 10k race pace or 15-20 sec slower than 5k. It varies a little, depending on how fast you are. Be sure not to take too long of a recovery jog unless you are sharpening up for an important race. About 1 minute per faster K is about right.

Regarding the faster stuff, it probably is necessary at some point to put the "icing on the cake". I actually have done very little of it, and took my 5k down from 21:30 to 19:40 within about 4-5 months. However, I've only improved another 6 seconds in more than a year since then, but 10 mile and half marathon times have come down a couple minutes each.

Jim


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joev9
Cool Runner
posted Feb-14-2007 02:46 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for joev9     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Tchuck's advice on the CV intervals was invaluable to me breaking 20 minutes, those once per week and pushing my mileage from 15mpw to 30 mpw did the trick. Hoping to take that advice and push my mileage up to 50mpw and break 40 for the 10K this year...

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runfastcoach
Cool Runner
posted Feb-16-2007 11:51 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for runfastcoach   Click Here to Email runfastcoach     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Remember, CV training has an accumulative effect. Continue to include them, week after week, or at least several weeks per year to realize full benefits!

Regards,

Tinman

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Jim24315
Cool Runner
posted Feb-17-2007 11:36 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jim24315   Click Here to Email Jim24315     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks Tinman, for turning me on to CV's and plenty of other good stuff. Since I started putting it into practice a little more than a year ago I've set PR's at 5k, 8k, 10k, 10 miles, and half marathon.

P.S.
Just turned 61 this week

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Tchuck
Cool Runner
posted Feb-17-2007 12:31 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Tchuck   Click Here to Email Tchuck     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Happy B-Day Jim, you young man you! Your times are great!

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duckgeek
Cool Runner
posted Feb-18-2007 11:10 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for duckgeek     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I've been meaning to participate in this thread since about page 2, but just this weekend I finally got around to actually running a 5K. Dang, that's a painful distance!

I finished in 20:27 and my splits were approximately 6:30, 6:43, 6:36 (:38). It was my second ever official 5k and my first road-only event, so it's a PR for me. Wind slowed me down in mile 2 and fatigue prevented me from going any faster in mile 3. Finishing kick wasn't bad.

I'm doing 1/2 or full mary training right now, so I haven't done any speed work, just tempo runs (7:10), hill routes, some MP (7:50ish) and long slow (8:20ish). My long runs are up to 15 right now and I'm doing about 33 mpw currently. I'll max out around 50 mpw.

I'm 41, a stocky 5'7"/170, and trying to work my way back down to around 160 for the summer.

My other PRs are: 10K 42:49, HM 1:34:56, Mar: 3:37:19 (crash/burn at end of M23). According to McMillan, everything lines up pretty well except I'm underachieving in the marathon.

I'm looking forward to adding some repeats to go along with fewer lbs. and breaking through the 20 minute barrier in late spring or early summer.

Thanks for all of the inspirational stories and great coaching in this thread!

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Tchuck
Cool Runner
posted Feb-19-2007 09:40 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Tchuck   Click Here to Email Tchuck     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Good job Duckgeek and welcome. You should have no issue breaking 20 min down the road. The weight loss will do it alone.

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BirdDoggin
Member
posted Feb-20-2007 10:50 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for BirdDoggin     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I have a 5K coming up next weekend. www.anthem5k.com

This is my first race in about 6 and a half years. I took a while off after getting married and it turned into 6 years off. I've been doing 20-30 MPW mostly on the treadmill (@ 3% incline, 7:15-8:45 per mile) due to the lovely weather here lately and my gawd awful work schedule. I'm hoping to run 20-21 mins. I have lofty goals set for the summer racing schedule based on my running experience and believed capabilities (that last race 6.5 years ago was a 5K in a corporate cup type event that I won in 16:07.) I'm a little nervous about racing again but look forward to a more enjoyable experience socially, which I never got before due to the high stress involved around placing, times, splits, etc.

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MaineRunner2001
Cool Runner
posted Feb-21-2007 11:10 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for MaineRunner2001     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
It is good to see this thread active. I had planned to take the month of January off (to mentally recover), and then start up again in February. The one month off lasted one week. I ran 0, 30, 30, and 30 mile weeks in January. So far this month I have run 32, 24, and 31. My plan over the next few weeks: three, 34 mile weeks, and then a 24 mile cut back week.

My next 5K race is April 21. Here is the year/time I have done this race in the past: 2002/21:33, 2003/20:18, 2004/20:06, 2005/20:04, and 2006/Did not race due to travel. This is the fastest 5K I race. Every other 5K I do is a lot tougher, and my times show it - upper 20 minutes to mid 21 minutes.

I emailed the race director, asking how the course was measured, hinting I was concerned it may be short. His response:

quote:

Our race is scheduled for Saturday, April 21 at 9:30 A.M. This will be our 25th annual!

(*name removed*) and I wheel-measured it a few years ago, so hopefully the course is just living up to its billing as “Maine’s fastest.”


This thread has discussed course accuracy in the past. What are everyone’s thoughts my next race? I think it is accurate. It is a long running race (it will be 25 years old this year), it has had the same race director at least since 2002 (the first time I raced it), and wheel-measurement is reliable. I do not think it is certified. The first half mile is down hill, and the rest of it is flat.

If I can only run a sub 20 minute 5K on “Maine’s fastest” course, can I claim I have run a sub 20 5K? Or would I be voted off the sub 20 minute 5K island?

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MichiganFlyer
Cool Runner
posted Feb-23-2007 10:00 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for MichiganFlyer     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Maine runner,

How much faster is this course than other courses you have run?

I would count it if it starts and finishes in the same place. If it is downhill from start to finish it would be harder to accept.

My 1st year of cross country I ran a 23:28 then 24:00.
My 3rd race I ran 21:11 which was obviously a short course. Everyone else was a minute faster at least. I didn't count that as my PR.

If the course is 3.1 miles and doesn't drop 200 feet from start to finish you should count it.

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MaineRunner2001
Cool Runner
posted Feb-23-2007 10:52 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for MaineRunner2001     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hello Michigan flyer,

Using a software program that shows elevation, the course starts at 320 feet. The first .62 miles drops to 180 feet (-140 feet). It then climbs to 220 feet (+40 feet). It stays at 220 feet until the end where it drops back to 180 feet (-40 feet), and then ends on a climb - back to 200 feet (+20 feet). The net drop is 120 feet.

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MichiganFlyer
Cool Runner
posted Feb-23-2007 03:22 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for MichiganFlyer     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by MaineRunner2001:
Hello Michigan flyer,

Using a software program that shows elevation, the course starts at 320 feet. The first .62 miles drops to 180 feet (-140 feet). It then climbs to 220 feet (+40 feet). It stays at 220 feet until the end where it drops back to 180 feet (-40 feet), and then ends on a climb - back to 200 feet (+20 feet). The net drop is 120 feet.



A 120 foot drop in 3 miles....That is what 40 foot per mile. Almost 1% downslope. So similar to treadmill running. That's why records only count on the track. People have run 4 minute miles hundreds of years ago on downhill slopes or with the wind behind them.

I hope you smash 20 minutes like 19:30 or something. That would feel pretty good. I don't think a course that is 1% downhill slope would be certified though. The distance is probably correct.

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Zapatista
Cool Runner
posted Feb-24-2007 11:02 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Zapatista     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by d3finition:
Ok guys just a quick question what MPW were you guys at when you broke 20min 5k?

35-40. Raced often, mostly 10Ks.

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