posted Dec-05-2006 06:59 PM            

I think if I find the right pace for the first 1.5 miles I have a good shot at sub-20. But if I go out too fast on this course, I'll blow up. Now I just have to hope my wife doesn't go into labor before Sunday so I can make it to the starting line

Mort - you have a good schedule there. It wouldn't hurt to bump up the mileage a bit and/or add a 20 minute tempo once a week.

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posted Dec-05-2006 09:01 PM            

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posted Dec-06-2006 09:00 AM               

Thanks for the advice. Last night I did a 1 mile warmup, 4 x 400's at 5k + 1 minute(about 8mm.), with a 400 jog in between to get the HR to come back down. Then a 1 mile cooldown. I feel really good today, feel like I actually exerted some effort last night. I'd like to get in an easy run tonight, but who knows about the schedule.

The only thing about upping the miles is my schedule. Right now, I get off work at 4, go home, change for the gym, pick up the 4 yr old, go to the gym by 5, work out real quick until about 6, pick up both the kids at the gym daycare, (my wife works there), go home. That is about 2-3 days a week.

I could run at like 8p.m., I did last night, so I was able to do a solid 48 minute workout with stretching at the end. Usually, I have to try and rush because the kids need to eat... The late night running hurts me, I wake up at 5, and if I start my run at 8pm. I'm not relaxed in bed until 10...

I start work at 7. Gym doesn't open until 5:00a.m. I like to leave our neighborhood by 6:15... I guess I could swing it early am, but it sounds as rushed as the afternoons...

argh! Sorry to sorta rant here, I just want to improve so badly!

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posted Dec-07-2006 12:05 PM            

What kind of 5k times do you run on the treadmill?
6:24 mile 1 and 8:27 mile 2 is an ovbious beginner's mistake run.

I know if you run on the treadmill it is hard to figure out pace outdoors. Last week I ran a 5k in 20:17 on the treadmill. My mile splits were 6:35, 6:33, 6:35.
I slowed down at the end of the 1st mile even though I felt strong so I could have a good 2nd half.

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posted Dec-07-2006 08:14 PM               

That was a hard tempo - actually more race like. Coming in at around 21:20 - 21:30 would be a plenty hard tempo run for 3 miles. Good thing it was 5 days before the race vs. 3. Probably wouldn't have done it that hard on race week but you should have ample time for recovery if the rest of your runs this week are easy.

Good luck - you should be fine if you don't feel like that hard tempo was killer. You always have extra on race day. Run a smart race and you will be fine. Focus on 6:35 - 6:40 for mile one (too fast going up hill and you will ruin your chance) and then you should be just fine the rest of the way with a strong finish. You will make up ground later.

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posted Dec-11-2006 07:38 AM            

A record by 31 seconds.
I set treadmill to 9 MPH and tried to sustain it.

The 1st mile was 6:38 not easy but manageable
Mile 2 was also 6:38...just keep it up I said to myself.
Mile 3 was 6:34 and I felt good (3 miles in 19:50)
Mile 4 was 6:25 (last 1/4 mile in 1:26)

Jasons Force I see what you mean about making up time in the last part of the race now.

I felt great at the end....had alot left but I don't think I could have run the 1st 3 miles in 6:30 and sprinted the end. I would have felt dead tired ready to collapse.

I was basically on target (just ahead of target) for the 1st 3.75 miles but my 86 second last 1/4 mile gained me 15 seconds on my 9MPH goal.

1st 2 miles were 13:16
Last 2 miles were 12:59

But again I gained 15 of those seconds on the last 1/4 mile.

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posted Dec-11-2006 01:40 PM            

Okay, enough excuses. I thought I was on pace for the first mile, but my legs were feeling very heavy; my watch read 6:09 around where I thought the marker should have been, and I later figured this must have been way short of a mile. The next .4 miles were the toughest part of the uphill, and I definitely slowed down. I had trouble judging my pace here because I was still passing people, but I hit the top of the hill at 10:20. The rest of the race was flat or downhill, and I pushed as hard as I could. I averaged about 6:09 pace for the final 1.7 miles and picked off 4 or 5 more runners to finish 30th overall.

There were a couple of positives...I didn't get passed at all during the race. I also finished 1 second behind coolrunner Labduck, who has a couple of sub-20s to his credit (and his report says the course was about :25 long) so I guess I didn't run too badly. I'm not at all sore today, so I'll get right back into training. Also, I should note that the course was about a minute longer than the route I ran the tempo on Tuesday.

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posted Dec-12-2006 08:45 AM               

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posted Dec-12-2006 02:11 PM               

I'm sure you can break 20. Anyone who can run the workout you had recently can do it. It sounds to me like the course was off.

Fwiw, I would never run a race I was serious about on an uncertified course. It's just a complete waste of my time and energy. For workouts or prep races okay, but not for a PR attempt or other time goal. As long as I'm on the subject, I don't even recogize PR's that aren't run on tracks or certified routes. The course you race on can often make more difference than your training.

Stay at it. Your sub-20 is not far away.

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posted Dec-12-2006 02:56 PM            

What is your best 4 mile time?
I am curious as to some of you 20 minute runners what your records are:

Here are mine:

1/4 miles 67.5
1.2 mile 2:47
1 mile 5:49
1.5 mile 8:56
2 miles 12:18
3 miles 19:08
4 miles 26:15
5 miles 33:41
10 k 42:41
10 miles 75:28

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posted Dec-12-2006 04:10 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by MichiganFlyer:
portlander.

What is your best 4 mile time?
I am curious as to some of you 20 minute runners what your records are:

Here are mine:

1/4 miles 67.5
1.2 mile 2:47
1 mile 5:49
1.5 mile 8:56
2 miles 12:18
3 miles 19:08
4 miles 26:15
5 miles 33:41
10 k 42:41
10 miles 75:28

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These are best recent times, all age 59-60. I hardly raced at all from age 51-58 and had much faster times in my 40's,

1 mile 5:51
2 miles 12:19
5k 19:34
4 miles 25:29
8k 32:57 (32:10 split during 10k)
10k 40:24
10 miles 1:08:40 (1:08:00 split during HM)
HalfMar 1:29:25

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posted Dec-12-2006 04:36 PM            

I accidently ran sub 20 during recovery from my first marathon training cycle. I peaked in September at 60 mpw. I did one long run a week (16-22 miles) with a mp push of 2-6.2 miles at the end. I also did one hard workout a week--tempo, Vo2, etc. After the marathon (10/15) I took it easy gradually building my miles back up into the mid-fifties as of last week--ALL of those miles were easy.

Here's my adult racing history (my 5k pr in high school ~13 years ago was 22:03--I started running seriously again in August '04).

5/06 - 1/2 marathon 1:38:45
7/06 - 5 miles in 34:57
8/06 - 10 miles in 1:11:42
9/06 - 1/2 marathon in 1:35:11
10/06 - marathon in 3:25:31
11/06 - 5 miles in 32:54
12/06 - 5k in 19:42

To be honest, I was surprised by my huge improvement in the speed department. I'm not sure how it happened, but maybe there's something in my experience that might help someone else break 20 minutes?

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posted Dec-12-2006 05:20 PM               

Since I ran a marathon on 12/2, this will be an experiment. My theory--and it once granted me a 10K PR two weeks after a marathon--is that all those months of marathon buildup, followed by a taper, followed by two very easy weeks after the marathon, make possible a kind of aftershock, a cresting wave of serious bone-deep, trained in strength. Of course there's no speed training to work off of, but then again I did do a final V02max workout 10 days before the marathon with 3 x mile in 6:18, 6:29, 6:30. Put those three miles together, subtract 5 seconds a mile, and you've got a pretty fast 5K.

I did the first track workout in months on Monday, which included 5 x 400 in 91-94 seconds with lots of rest. Strictly a stride-consolidation workout; no real lactic acid pressure. And great fun.

I'm shooting for sub-20, obviously. My PR on the course is 19:41, set precisely a year ago. It's just the four sides of the park--a rectangle, essentially, with gently rolling hills. I'll go out in 6:25 - 6:30, see how I feel, pick it up, and kick like hell.

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posted Dec-13-2006 07:57 AM            

As for pacing, I accidentally went out too hard at the 5 miler in November (6:14) and then slowed down a little but just kept on pushing. I had just wanted to go under 7:00mm and ended up averaging 6:35 (with a decent 1/4 mile hill at the beginning of mile 5). So, I decided to just go out hard in the 5k and hold. I ran 6:11, 6:30 (into heavy wind); 6:19. I hit 3 miles at 19 flat. I felt like I had no kick at all to speak of, but instead I felt like I was sort of intensely coasting along. I have to say sub-20 in theory sounded much harder to me than it actually was to execute when I was in shape to run it. Anyway, I feel like I've had a big breakthrough and these speedy little races make me confident I can run a big marathon pr this spring.

Good luck on Saturday!!! I think you'll break 20 very easily!

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posted Dec-13-2006 08:52 AM               

You should join the sub-40 10k (as a goal) thread. It would be a good intermediate target for you. The way you are going it probably won't take that long to get there.

congrats on the 19:42

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posted Dec-14-2006 01:38 PM            

I'll jump into the PR for different distances:

1 mile 5:49
5K 20:17
4.2 miles 28:56
8 miles 56:05
10 miles 1:19

Todays workout was an awesome neg split 3 mile run. Its a flat 1.5 miles out and back. I hit the 1/2 mile @ 4:12, almost turned around then, but forced myself to pick em up and put em down! Hit the 1.5 mile turn around @ 10:30 (7mpm) returned in 9:23(6:15mpm) for a 19:53 overall 6:38 pace. I feel like I'm ready for that sub 20. Just have to hold on till I get the next available race!

[This message has been edited by joggernut (edited Dec-14-2006).]

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posted Dec-17-2006 05:04 PM               

I can't complain. I felt fine and ran smart. My splits were 6:26, 6:40, 6:19, and :37 (5:37 pace for the final .11). Interestingly, these splits were 5, 7, and 6 seconds slower than my splits last year. I ran basically the same race, just a tad slower. My kick last year was exactly the same. My first mile felt fine; I did indeed slow in the second mile on some rolling hills, but didn't feel in trouble. In the third mile, I passed a group of HS runners, left them conclusively behind, pushed hard up the last long hill, and blasted past one more HS runner on the long downhill glide towards the finish line. I had plenty of speed; I just didn't quite have the pop you need for the 5K, nor the elevated VO2 max. If I'd run hard hill repeats for a few weeks, I'd have run much faster.

This summer and fall was all about marathons--two, to be exact. Very little training at 6:30 pace and below, except for a couple of easy workouts this past week. I'm simply unsharpened. Too, I ran a 3:30 marathon two weeks ago. I'm doubtless not fully recovered. (Last year I ran the PR one week after running a PR half marathon, though.)

I like the 5K and will focus my training much more in this direction.

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posted Dec-19-2006 09:30 AM            

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posted Dec-19-2006 09:50 PM               

Are any of you currently building base? If so, what kind of plan are you on?

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posted Dec-22-2006 07:43 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bill14719:
Ran 21:51 at my Turkey Trot, hope to join the under 20 club in 2007. Currently running 15-20 mpw is base training, slowly building up to 30.

Are any of you currently building base? If so, what kind of plan are you on?

---

Starting week of October 22...Miles per week

20
22
24
18
26
28
30
19
33 (this week)

I can run a 5k in under 21 minutes....probably not ready to break 20 minutes yet.

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posted Dec-22-2006 09:04 AM               

Day 1 4 - 5 comfortable w/ striders

Day 2 5 - 7 including 15 - 20 min Fartleks (i.e.) 5 X 4 min. or 6 X 3 min w/ 2 min recovery) at critical velocity (around 10K pace or a tad slower) or 4 - 5 miles with in this run at marathon pace or 1 min below 5K pace (generally rotate these work out every other week)

Day 3 4 - 5 comfortable w/ 8-10 X 30 sec. Fartleks at 5K pace w/ full recovery

Day 4 8 - 9 miles comfortable w/ 3 mile at MP toward end if feeling good and/or if I did not do any CV or MP reps on Day 2

I try to get in 3 MP/CV work outs in every 2 weeks. NOTE: this is not hard training and doesn't tax my anaerobic system

I think if you have been running a while the above will make you stronger and keep you in touch with your paces year round with out affecting base building.

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posted Dec-22-2006 10:14 AM            

Do not run between December 31 and January 27. I will lift weights and watch what I eat with a goal of not gaining weight, maybe (hopefully) even lose some.

Starting week of January 28 do these weekly miles: 24, 28, 32, and 34. Run a slow six to ten mile run on Saturday or Sunday. Run slow the rest of the time too. Slow is marathon pace plus one, two, or more minutes (9:00 to 11:00 minutes per mile)

Week of February 25 have a cut back week - 24 total miles. Run one four to six mile run at marathon pace (8:00), the rest of the miles at a slow pace.

Starting week of March 4 do these weekly miles: 32, 34, 32, and 34. Run a slow eight to 10 mile run on Saturday or Sunday. One other day a week, run a four to six mile course that has many big hills and run hard up the hills (30 to 120+ second hills). I run over the hills often, but do not attack them, as I will on these workouts. Run the rest of the miles slow.

Week of April 1 have a cut back week - 24 total miles. Run one four to six mile run at marathon pace, the rest of the miles at a slow pace.

Starting week of April 8 do these weekly miles: 32, 34, 32, and 34. Run a slow eight to 10 mile run on Saturday or Sunday. One day a week, run a four to six mile course that has many big hills, averaging around 10K pace (~7:15). During April, I will run a fast 5K where I will try for 19:59 or better.

In May I will start training for an October half marathon.

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posted Dec-22-2006 02:19 PM               

Others have shared their personal best times or performances, so, if you don't mind, I'll share my story. It's kind of fun looking back at the years or running and figuring out if there is meaning in there somewhere.

Personal best times were all achieved in the 1980s and 1990s. In 1980, I ran 5:04 as an 8th grader and 11:32 over 2 miles (x-country course).

In high school, I ran 55 sec., 2:01, 4:32, and 10:10 over 400, 800, 1600, and 3200m. I ran even better in the summers, when training was more suited to my natural abilities. As a 16 year old (summer of 1983), I ran 16:11 in a 5k on the roads and a road mile in 4:38.

In college, as a freshman redshirt at SIU-Carbondale, I ran 26:53 over 5 miles XCountry and then ran a road 5k in 15:53 in the suburbs of St. Louis. That winter I ran in an open mile (real mile) in 4:23.7 at the Univ. of IL. - seems like it was 10 laps to the mile; not sure.

The spring of 1986, I ran 4:21 and change over 1600m outdoors in a rec. department event (on the track) in which I had already run the 400m and the 200m (53 and 25 seconds). Can't remember the tenths.

During that time, I was running about 50 miles per week(mostly medium to fast 6-10 mile runs with some hill reps (I did 8 x 150m about 85% of best speed - it was ridiculously steep) every week for about 8 weeks with my Australian roommate who was a master of hill running compared to me. Once I week I ran one session of 8 x 1000 yards (around a soccer pitch near the tennis courts where I could watch a really cute gal from England play for the university team) at CV pace, jogging 30 seconds between rep and then 4 x 30 seconds at what felt like 1 mile or slightly faster pace (all on grass).

Each weekend, I ran 10 miles on a super hilly course - the same route that Bill Cornell, the head coach at SIU and a 4 flat miler in the early 1960s and 1:48 over 880 yards, too. I ran that a few times with the guys on the team and the leaders hammered it and left me in the dust after 2 miles. Chris Bunyan was part of that group (he had run 2:11 at Boston the year before) and the 10-mile time for him was typically 51-52 minutes. I remember the first time I ran it my time was 68 minutes and I was very, very tired. By spring, I was hitting it in about 62 minutes. To be honest, after I ran that course and showered, I felt awful. I couldn't even eat. I was sick to my stomach, dehydrated, and had headaches.

I ran at a different college after the first year and became injured right away. I struggled while there and had two surgeries on my calves. I had to do the bare minimum and of course you know the results that one gets from that!

In my late 20s, I found a rhythm that seemed perfect. Training became fun when I got rid of the abusive workouts that happended at my second college. I ran 5 miles every day and rotated EZ, Medium, and Strong paced continuous runs over flat, somewhat hilly, and very hilly courses, in that order. I enjoyed my best racing and reached 15:55, 15:32, 15:13 (all 5ks), a single 4:01.98 (1500m) and a 5 mile road race in 26:08 on a hot day, placing third (I think) overall. I've never broken 26 minutes for 5 miles, so I sure wish that day I could have found 9 more seconds in my legs.

That's all ancient past. Now, like some of you reading this narrative, the search for vitality, legs that are strong, and a tireless feeling while running is my goal. The struggle seems to be very, very hard. Heavier and slower, my body sinks into the ground, it seems. Recovery is slow after workouts and fatigue lingers for 2-3 days instead of just a day or two. It is the lack of consistency which is to blame - and that is my province to own up to. I preach consistency and it is time to put it to take action in my (own) backyard.

To those who struggle and find small gains in performance, keep on going! I am there with you in spirt and heart. Perhaps a place like coolrunning.com and therunzone.com (where I am oftne found) can connect us (all) by common means and ways.

Rudyard Kipling said this:

"....If you can fill the unforgiving minute
With sixty seconds' worth of distance run,
Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,..."

Perhaps this means fight the good fight. Take the bull by the horns and don't give up, even when the perfect moment is gone. He mentions the will is what counts.

Earlier in his poem, Kipling talked about this when he said:

"..If you can force your heart and nerve and
sinew
To serve your turn long after they are gone,
And so hold on when there is nothing in you
Except the Will which says to them: 'Hold
on!'"

Tinman
at runfastcoach@gmail.com

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posted Dec-22-2006 02:43 PM               

Since my Turkey Trot, here is my weekly mileage:
Nov 27: Off/cross training
Dec 4: 14
Dec 11: 15.5
Dec 18: 17 (long run of 7 miles)

I have been running 4 days a week, and lifting on 2 of the off days. All at relatively easy pace, 8:20-9:00 miles. I will probably add a fifth day in a week or two.

I want to get my base into the mid twenties and then incorporate some of the tempo work discussed by you guys above. Thanks again.

Bill

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posted Dec-22-2006 11:20 PM               

Not sure if I missed something but why are you taking a month off running? This will set you back. Are you injured? Will you be doing any cardiovascular exercise?

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