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Sub 20-Minute 5-K


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Author Topic:   Sub 20-Minute 5-K
bobscamman
Cool Runner
posted Aug-24-2006 02:32 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for bobscamman   Click Here to Email bobscamman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by joev9:
Wanna know if 20:00 is crazy to expect at my next race or something to gun for. Here are some particulars:

- 5K PR 21:11 on July 9, 2006. Race was 5 days after another 5K on July 4th. Felt great the whole race, wasn't pressed by anyone, and I think if I was I could have squeezed out those 11 seconds to be around 21 flat.

- Since July, I have increased my mileage from 20 to 30 mpw.

- This past Sunday I set a new PR (by over 2 minutes) in a 5-mile race (36:34 on a somewhat hilly route).

- My goal race is September 17th and is on a flat, fast route with lots (thousands) of runners to pace off of.

If its NOT crazy, what would be some good speedwork workouts in the next 2-3 weeks to sharpen up my speed a bit.

Thanks.


joev9, I certainly don't want to burst your bubble, but from what I can see you may very well be setting yourself up for a huge disappointment at this stage.

Your recent 5 miler points to a 22:04 5K so you are clearly in better condition aerobically to run the 5K versus the longer distances at least for now.

Your recent 21:11 5K is a 6:49 pace you need a 6:26 pace to get to that magic 19:59 and I'm just not sure you can knock a full minute off your time that quickly...but who knows...it is certainly a good goal to have. If I were you I would set my immediate goal for the 5K at around 20:30 and give it all you've got and who knows you might surprise yourself and knock even more time off.

I think you need to concentrate on some 5K specific speed workouts and remember not to do too many, your legs need time to recover. I speak from some experience so believe me on that one!

Best of luck to you, and here's hoping you reach that goal real soon...keep us posted.

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joev9
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posted Aug-24-2006 04:02 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for joev9     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
i figured it was a long shot and a lot of improvement in a short time. nothing in my running would be a huge disappointment, the benefits far outweigh any negatives. gonna shoot for it, but anything better than 21:11 will be fine.

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Jim24315
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posted Aug-24-2006 04:16 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jim24315   Click Here to Email Jim24315     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
joev9,

I agree with Bob. Even allowing for some hills your 5-mile time is too far off, and the difference between 21:11 and 20:00 is huge, to say the least.

If you told me that you had only been running a couple months when you set your PR I would give you a better chance. Improvements of that magnitude are possible in the early stages of a running program. How long have you been running?

The advice I would give is often not that popular, but I would not do ANY intense speed at this point. With your mileage base I would go with tempo runs at about 30 seconds per mile slower than your last 5k, and 6-8 strides of about 100 meters twice a week. The strides would be at 5k pace, or just a tiny bit faster--they are not sprints.Three miles is about right for the tempos. Just do those and gradually increase your mileage. This will untimately make you faster--you can do intenese speed later when it will do you more good.

There is no doubt that sub-20 is an acheivable goal if you've run 21:11 off 20 mpw. I just wouldn't be in a big hurry. You might get there in 2-3 months if you are dilligent.

Good luck,

Jim


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MichiganFlyer
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posted Aug-25-2006 07:37 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for MichiganFlyer     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
joe

My best 5 mile time is 33:41.
At that same time I ran a 19:58 5k.

Both of these were on the treadmill.

Yes there is a huge difference between 21:11 and 20:00.
But you should be able to notch a PR. That should be your goal. Running sub 21 is a huge pick me up. It will give you a mental edge that you are in the 20's now. That is possible and should be your goal. I would say the best you could hope for is 20:30 but you probably are in the 20:40-21:00 range.

You are on the right track.
21 minutes is better than average for a 5k.
20:XX is a good time for a 5k
Not many runners ever run below 20. Maybe 20% of guys reach that figure but certainly not all at one time. Keep plugging away and set your sights on a new PR first.

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bobscamman
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posted Aug-25-2006 09:23 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for bobscamman   Click Here to Email bobscamman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by MichiganFlyer:
joe

You are on the right track.
21 minutes is better than average for a 5k.
20:XX is a good time for a 5k
Not many runners ever run below 20. Maybe 20% of guys reach that figure but certainly not all at one time. Keep plugging away and set your sights on a new PR first.


Very well said Michigan Flyer, I couldn't agree with you more. Take a look around you at these races and you will see that far more come in well after the 20:00 mark than before.

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joev9
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posted Aug-25-2006 09:24 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for joev9     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
thanks guys, good advice all around. i have another 5K in November so maybe 20:30 in September and 20:00 in November might be more reasonable.

One more question, when your first broke 20:00 did it feel easy or was it an all out hard race? Just wondering if it will come as one of those rare convergences of all the elements and feel like no big thing, or will it take the hardest of hardest efforts to get there.

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MichiganFlyer
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posted Aug-25-2006 10:36 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for MichiganFlyer     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Well I haven't broken 20 on a measured road course which is my goal (because I want the 19:XX to be in written form so I can prove that I have accomplished this) in the future by pointing someone to a certain website.

But I did break 20 on a treadmill so I can give you a story about that run.

Last year May, June and July I ran about 130 miles each month. I ran a couple 5k races in 20:52 and 20:41 respectively. At the end of July I thought I was ready to go sub 20.

It was a trail 5k on July 31,2005. I took off a little faster on mile 1 and logged a 6:37 (my goal was 6:25). I hit 2 miles in 13:26 and 3 miles in 20:15. When I crossed the line with a final time of 20:51 I threw a fit. That's it I am done with running forever I whined. I will never get any faster.

On August 2,2005 I ran a sluggish 3 miles outside and it felt slow and terrible. Yes I am burned out no more running for awhile I said.

A few days later I looked at others times in this trail run. The guy who finished 1 second ahead of me had run a 19:27 road 5k on week prior. Maybe I can break 20 on a flat road course now I thought.

By this time I had not run in 4 of the past 5 days (only one run- my sluggish 3 mile run) so I decided to give the treadmill a try. 20 or bust I thought. But had I taken too much time off from running? Of course not I would soon find out. The base miles were there and now that I had taken off 4 days my legs were very rested.

My 1st mile on 8/5/05 was a 6:17
I hit 1.5 miles in 9:32
2 miles in 12:46
3 miles in 19:08
and 5k distance in 19:43.

I was determined to break 20. I am not saying it wasn't hard but not as hard as I thought it would be. I got a big lead over pace and then sustained it. It meant alot even though it wasn't outdoors and I slowed my miles of running for the year until about December.

I only ran about 50 miles last August taking several 3 day periods with no running (but I set several records).

2 miles in 12:18 on August 9
10K in 42:41 on August 15
1 mile in 5:49 on August 19
4 miles in 26:46 pm August 28

Running about 30 miles per week for 3 months will bring you some good base to develop good times even if you run sparingly the 4th month.

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Jim24315
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posted Aug-25-2006 11:02 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jim24315   Click Here to Email Jim24315     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Joev9.

Races are always hard, but that doesnít mean that you grit your teeth and push it to the floor from the go. I just try to go out at good pace, but staying relaxed and under control. Always the pace the feels fast and relaxed early is going to be very tough that last half mile or even before that.

In December of 2004 just before I turned 59 I ran a 5k in 21:30. From that point I did pretty much what I recommended to youóI built up my mileage and most of my faster running was in the form of strides and tempo runs. I didnít even start the tempos until about 6 weeks before my key race. Iíd also go out once in a while and run a mile or 2 at about 6:35-6:50 pace. My mileage peaked at 50 and averaged in low 40ís from the time I started in December until April 3 when I ran 19:43. Altogether it took about 4 months to get there from my 21:30 beginning. Oh yeah, I forgot to tell you that I ran a 4-mile race at 6:40 pace the week before the 5k. It was the day after a long runóobviously I didnít taper for it, but I ran short, slow runs the rest of the week until the 5k. The keys were increased mileage and tempo runs, probably in that order of importance.

Getting back to the original question, I donít remember the 19:43 feeling any tougher or any easier than the 21:30 Iíd run 4 months before. Itís all in the training.

Weíre not all the same, so what worked for me may not be best for you. This is just what I did for what itís worth.

Good luck again. Iím sure youíll get there. Itís just a matter of when and not if.


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brook trout
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posted Aug-25-2006 12:16 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for brook trout   Click Here to Email brook trout     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hi joev,

Just to give you some encouragement, I went from 20:51 to 19:59 to 19:39 over a three week period. You might not get to sub-20 in your next race (though the course sounds ideal), but you might get closer in subsequent races, if you run a set of them. It always takes me 2-3 races before I set a PB if I haven't raced for a while (that said, I've only been running for a year and am just starting my 3rd season, so YMMV).

To answer your other question, my first sub-20 felt easier than the 20:51 before it, and the 19:39 easier still. They key? Pacing. I paced a little better with each race. The more evenly you can meter out your effort, the better you'll feel, and if you're feeling strong at mile 2, you can really hammer it home. It's no surprise that the three races I had this spring, the slowest one was the one where I ran the fastest first mile (5:58 vs. 6:25-6:30 for the sub-20 efforts).

It's much easier to be in control of the pain - to stay in control so that you can make the concious decision on when to hurt, rather than hurting fromt the get-go and having to endure.

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Jim24315
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posted Aug-25-2006 12:31 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jim24315   Click Here to Email Jim24315     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hi Brook Trout,

Very good points about pacing. This can't be underestimated. Even though 5k is a relatively short race, I have found it to be the most difficult of all to pace properly. Everybody takes off so fast that it takes a tremendous amount of restraint not to get caught up in it.

How's you training coming along?

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brook trout
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posted Aug-25-2006 12:39 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for brook trout   Click Here to Email brook trout     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Jim24315:
Hi Brook Trout,

How's you training coming along?


Hey Jim,

Not sure. With my MIL's recent illness and passing, I was really reduced to running dribs and drabs over the past month. I was 20-30 mpw for a good three weeks, and I think that set me back a little.

I had a good 6X800 workout a couple weeks ago (all under 3:00 with 2:00 rest), but did worse on my 4X1200 this week for some reason.

I thought I'd do better than the 19:51 in my last 5K (first of the season), but it was warm and the course wasn't real fast, and I trained through it, yadda yadda yadda - I'm hoping that the next is better and that I can really pop one on OCT 1st. Like I said, I usually see big drops in the first several races in the season, though It remains to be seen if that was just a newbie thing that's run its course.

I'm pretty confident I'm not going to run sub-40 for the 10K this sept. I may not even run the race (it's a week before my first goal 5K). There's another 10K near the end of OCT that's part of the series of goal races I'm looking towards, so I might make that my sub-40 10K attempt. When I decide, I'll udpate the 40 thread

So, short answer, it's not going great, but I'm still holding out hope to attain at least some of my goals this fall season.

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tchitest
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posted Aug-25-2006 04:37 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for tchitest     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Well here goes nothing. Have back to back 20:59s. One 1 yr ago and one in December. Haven't run a race since PF sidelined me this spring, but I have consistantly been at 35+ miles. I will take it out in 6:35 and see what happens. My real goal is to be around 20:30. I think I am a couple months and a few degrees (it has been HOT here in Charlotte) away from the sub 20. i will update next week.

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MichiganFlyer
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posted Aug-28-2006 07:17 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for MichiganFlyer     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Week 3 of training.

Monday, Aug. 21 REST

Tue, Aug. 22..6 miles in 44:49 (7:28 average)..6:59 last mile. Felt good and probably ran way too fast for a training run.

Wed, Aug. 23...ran 5k around the block in 24:59...ran more loops for a total of 6 miles.

Thur, Aug. 24..Ran 6 miles in 49:38 (8:16 average)

Fri, Aug. 25...Ran 3 X 1600 meter intervals on track.
6:37
6:35
6:26
warmup and cooldown totalled 7 miles.

Sat, Aug. 26 REST

Sun, Aug. 27... 11 miles in 90:36 (8:13 pace) Last mile in 7:24. Didn't tire until 5th or 6th mile. The 8th mile was the worst. My longest run ever.

I would like to run three 5ks this fall.

Sept. 24
Oct.1
Oct.15

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MaineRunner2001
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posted Sep-01-2006 09:49 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for MaineRunner2001     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I have been doing monthly updates so here goes:

In August, I ran 25 of 31 days - 120.11 total miles.

Goal race on August 5. Originally 5K, but due to bridge construction course was changed to 3.19 miles. Original plan was to try for sub 20 minutes, but because of bridge repair changed plan - run 6:45 miles instead of 6:26 miles. Ran the 3.19 miles in 21:35, 6:46 minutes per mile. That pace would have made the 5K 20:58, and that is how I recorded it!

Cut mileage week of race to taper, and ran light week after race for recovery: 17.29 miles and then 19.06 miles. Very happy with third week in August: 34 miles with a 10 mile long run (10:35 pace), 4 mile tempo run (7:23 pace), and 4 mile marathon pace run (8:12 pace).

Started fourth week in August with an 8-mile long run (10:00 pace) and a 4-mile tempo run (7:19 pace). Then pulled groin muscle playing touch football at company summer outing! Took two days off. Ran 25 miles that week.

So far this week: one 10 mile long run (dismal 11:39 pace) plus 14.76 endurance paced miles. Plan to run four to five miles tonight and tomorrow so will have 32.76 to 34.76 miles this week.

Cross training: tennis, commute on bike to work (11.9 miles One-way), and that stupid touch football game. Zero, one, or more of them each week. Wife started running so ran/walked with her a bit. Also on the home front, my 16 year old (soon to be 17) signed up for high school cross-country. His first 5K meet was 22:15. I suspect he will be close to sub 20 by end of the season, if he stays healthy.

Weight improved - average of recorded weights in June was 165.45; July 163.93; August 163.20. Over the last week or so, I started eating more than I should. Need to stop.

Thinking about running a 5K in my hometown October 29. Goal will be 20:xx. Next sub 20 shot April 2007.

Goal for September: run everyday and average weight below 163.

Good running all

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MichiganFlyer
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posted Sep-05-2006 07:31 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for MichiganFlyer     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Nice running Maine runner.
You are in the 20's now. Only 1 step away.

Week 4 of training.

Monday, Aug. 28...REST

Tuesday, Aug. 29..6 miles in 48:21 (8:04 pace)

Wed, Aug. 30...6 miles in 48:19 (8:03 pace)

Thur, Aug. 31...6 miles in 49:29 (8:15 pace)

Fri, Sept. 1....5 miles in 40:35 (8:07 pace)

Sun, Sept. 3... 6 miles in 49:40 on treadmill (8:18 pace)

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MichiganFlyer
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posted Sep-05-2006 07:33 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for MichiganFlyer     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
What a morning it has been so far.
I went to bed at 10 last night and my 17 month old daughter woke me up screaming at 3 am. I thought she will go back to sleep but when she was still screeching at 3:20 I thought well maybe I can take care of her and go running. I got her up and offered her some milk (she shook her head "no") so I gave her some infant tylenol for her teeth are coming in. Sat and rocked her for about 5 minutes and put her back to bed without any fussing from her.
So I watched a little tv...shocking to hear about the Croc Hunter Steve Irwins death. Went outside about 4:15. I was scheduled to run 8 miles but I didn't like the thought of that. I wanted to run a fast 5k since it is only 19 days until I race and I have done a lot of basework and need to start seeing what 5k speed is so it won't be a surprise on race day.

I ran 1 mile warmup then did some 50 yard fast striders. I know this mile stretch of road that I always get good times on as it is fast and rather flat so I would run that mile 3 times (there and back and there again)

I took off on the 1st mile and told myself to hold back a little but I also wanted a good fast start. I was a little winded in the 1st quarter but told myself I had a good base and would be fine. Half mile point I felt good and started hard downhill working on turning the feet over quickly. Then uphill to mile 1 and I still ran rather hard. My mile time was a great 6:22 (I was thinking it would be about 6:33).

I kept up on mile 2 after turning around the stop sign and went downhill. Had I started too fast? No I feel pretty good I thought. At 1.5 miles I felt surprisingly strong...the base miles are kicking in I thought. I was hoping for 2 miles in 13:00 and I was very excited to see a 2 mile time of 12:48 (mile 2 was 6:26)

I will break 20 for 3 miles easily I thought but realized I needed a 6:27 average pace for a 5k to break 20. I continued the pace not out of control but was tiring a little. At 2.5 miles I felt fairly strong but was starting to run out of gas. I cruised in the last quarter uphill for a 3 mile time of 19:12 (mile 3 was 6:24)..Ran the last tenth and finished in 19:47. Now can I do this in a race? I think so. Is this distance I ran today 3.1 miles? With my car odometer it measures about 200 feet short but on my plat map (which I don't see how it can be wrong) it measures about 150 feet long.

It wasn't that hard at all. I was breathing a good hard rhthym the last 1/2 mile but this was a great run. My left hip hurts though so I hope to get that feeling better soon.

Total run after cooldown was 5.9 miles.

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joev9
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posted Sep-05-2006 02:13 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for joev9     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
need some race advice. i am running a 5K on 9/17. ran 30 miles last week and am planning for 23 this week. 4 today (tuesday), 6 with 3 tempo tomorrow, 4 friday, 9 saturday. what would be a good plan for next week leading up to the race. haven't really considered tapering or anything for any previous race, but really want to be well rested and ready for this race on the 17th. thanks in advance.

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Jim24315
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posted Sep-06-2006 12:22 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jim24315   Click Here to Email Jim24315     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
joev9

I can't tell you for sure what will work best for you, but generally speaking I don't think you need to reduce mileage much, if at all, for a 5k. However I'd make last quality workout about 4 days before. Since your mileage is relatively low, a short one would probably be best.

I am also running an important 5k on 17th and that's what I'm doing--last quality workout on Wednesday before.

Good luck.

[This message has been edited by Jim24315 (edited Sep-06-2006).]

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MichiganFlyer
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posted Sep-06-2006 09:34 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for MichiganFlyer     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I am going to run an 11 or 12 mile run 1 week before my 5k race. Probably do 4 X 800 on the track in 3:09 four or five days before the race. Something like this maybe.

Sunday (7 days before race)...12 mile run

Monday ...REST

Tuesday.... 6 mile easy run

Wed....4 X 800 at 3:09 pace with 400 recovery jog.

Thursday....4 mile easy run

Friday.... 4 mile easy run

Saturday...REST

Sunday...RACE

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MaineRunner2001
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posted Sep-07-2006 09:02 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for MaineRunner2001     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I have heard there is no need to taper for a 5K. That is probably the case for many people. However, for me, I have found if I cut mileage and intensity the week of a goal 5K, my time turns out to be 5 to 10 seconds per mile faster than if I train through a 5K.

I have found this race week schedule works for me:

Day 1: 2 miles (20 minutes)
Day 2: 5 miles (50 minutes)
Day 3: 5 miles with 2 X 100 meter strides at goal 5K pace (45 minutes)
Day 4: off
Day 5: 4 miles (40 minutes)
Day 6: 4 miles (40 minutes)
Day 7: RACE

A normal week for me is something like this:

Day 1: 4 miles (35 to 40 minutes)
Day 2: 4 to 6 miles interval work out (35 to 60 minutes)
Day 3: 4 miles (35 to 40 minutes)
Day 4: 4 miles (less than 30 minutes)
Day 5: 4 miles (35 to 40 minutes)
Day 6: 4 miles (35 to 40 minutes)
Day 7: 8 to 10 miles (90 to 110 minutes)

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joev9
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posted Sep-07-2006 09:51 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for joev9     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
yeah, i am going to cut back next week too. the tapering is probably more to recover from august and july being my two hardest (4 races) and longest months ever. i want to feel really fresh for this race. had a great tempo run yesterday: 1.5 mile warm up, 3 miles in 21:45 being "comfortably hard" for about 2.5 miles then "hard" the last 0.5 miles, and a 1.5 mile cool down. i am feeling that if i can do 3 miles in 21:45 alone without really pushing it, that 20:30 on race day is a very reasonable goal.

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dcv2002
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posted Sep-07-2006 09:56 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for dcv2002     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Since I'm in the midst of marathon training, there really isn't any time to cut back. What I've been doing the week I've had races is simply don't due a hard workout a couple of days before your race. For instance, if you race on Saturday, do your last hard workout on Tues.

You should still run (easy) however those days before the race, at least 30 minutes. It keeps the legs fresh for the race.

I'm hoping to break 20 for the 5k next Saturday. (It's a 10k race that I hope to break 40:00, so I guess I need to break 20 in the 5k to do that).

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gcklo
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posted Sep-07-2006 04:58 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for gcklo     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by joev9:
yeah, i am going to cut back next week too. the tapering is probably more to recover from august and july being my two hardest (4 races) and longest months ever. i want to feel really fresh for this race. had a great tempo run yesterday: 1.5 mile warm up, 3 miles in 21:45 being "comfortably hard" for about 2.5 miles then "hard" the last 0.5 miles, and a 1.5 mile cool down. i am feeling that if i can do 3 miles in 21:45 alone without really pushing it, that 20:30 on race day is a very reasonable goal.

Your 3 mile pace is 7:15 if you finish in 21:45. For a 5k, you need to add 40+ sec for the last 0.11 mile. That will put you into 22:30 range for your training. If you feel that is hard, would it be too aggressive to knock off 2 min in your race?

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joev9
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posted Sep-08-2006 12:11 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for joev9     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
i don't think that 2 minutes between a solo workout run where i tried to stay under 90% MHR for the most part and an all-out race effort with all the adrenaline and incentive of a race is that big a difference. at least, i hope not. in fact, i did a 4 mile tempo run at 7:27 mpm (23:06 5K) on June 21st then ran 21:11 in a 5K race on July 9. i feel like i am in better shape now than i was in the beginning of July and am sure I can beat my 21:11 time.

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gcklo
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posted Sep-09-2006 01:45 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for gcklo     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by joev9:
i don't think that 2 minutes between a solo workout run where i tried to stay under 90% MHR for the most part and an all-out race effort with all the adrenaline and incentive of a race is that big a difference. at least, i hope not. in fact, i did a 4 mile tempo run at 7:27 mpm (23:06 5K) on June 21st then ran 21:11 in a 5K race on July 9. i feel like i am in better shape now than i was in the beginning of July and am sure I can beat my 21:11 time.

Your PR is similar to mine (21:12). My short term goal is to break 21 min. I do run my 4 mile tempo easily at 7:25 pace (used to run my tempo at 7:10 to 7:15 when I set my 5k PR), followed by 6:50 pace for 2 miles short tempo in the same workout with ease. But my recent 5k is still 6:59 pace (well, that's on a rough dirt trail vs the fast concrete run for my tempo's). But, I will try again this Sun, and hope to get closer to my PR or even break it.

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