posted Jul-28-2005 08:45 PM               

I've published the article here

http://www.competitiverunner.com/vervloetwalkers_1.html

and would be interested in additional feedback.

Here are my comments on the article:

1) The premise, that elite Kenyan runners learn their form from the efficient walking technique of their wood carrying women of their village, is a bit far fetched for me. The stride of someone walking is very different from the stride of one running. So I don't see how one translates into the other. I'm more inclined to believe that Kenyan adolescents learn to run by watching their elder siblings and piers.

2) I don't by the “let gravity pull forward” philosophy either. It has been a long time since freshman physics, but to my recollection gravity just doesn't work that way. But I do believe there is value in leaning forward slightly.

3) The article states that “the goal of running isn't to be the fastest; it's to be the most efficient.” When I race, I always try to run as fast as I can for the distance. I know I won't be the fastest, but I still try. Being the most efficient will certainly help a lot, but so will training, diet, adequate rest, and fast genes (something I obviously don't have).

4) I find it very hard to believe that these efficient walkers actually lean back and pull themselves forward when they walk. Pushing the weight on their heads forward, may allow them to be more upright than without the weight on their heads, but I am having trouble with the idea that they lean back.

5) I always thought that Kenyan runners did have a fairly significant forward lean. The author implies that they run more upright.

According to this article, we should run more upright and use our hamstrings and glutes to propel us forward instead of leaning forward and using our quads. This is not all that far fetched. Dr. Yessis promotes such an approach in his book Explosive Running. But I still have a hard time with the article's premise, that Kenyon runners learn this approach by watching the efficient technique of women carrying wood upon their heads.

I'm interested in hearing other opinions. BTW, the author of the article has said he would participate in this discussion, so feel free to pose any questions directly to him.

Victor

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www.competitiverunner.com

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posted Jul-29-2005 08:49 AM               

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posted Jul-29-2005 10:52 AM               

quote:

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From the article:

Pull, Don't Push
With a center of mass further forward than their bodies own natural center of gravity, these Kenyan women can also do something supermodels can't do; they can pull their weight. The most efficient walkers in the world don't lean forward and push backward, they actually lean backwards and pull themselves forward onto their next step.

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If you look at racewalkers, which are highly refined and efficient walkers, you will _never_ see a top walker leaning backward.
Racewalkers do pull forward as well as push off, but the body has a slight forward lean, and the lead leg of an elite athlete is almost vertical when it lands in front of the body.

Also if you're leaning backward and pulling, the body (weight) has to be lifted a longer distance up over the advancing leg as it pulls and straightens under the body. That's inefficient.

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posted Jul-31-2005 03:02 PM               

I asked her to answer some questions as to what my technique feels like on the road...

Hi Robert!

I'm happy you're so excited. I am too! It makes running more fun, makes for a better workout with less impact on the joints, and it's already changed the way my lower body looks, definitely for the good, in only about 6 sessions of alternating walking/running. I could already feel the change
(butt, thighs and calves too -- what is the front muscle on the lower leg?) after doing it twice.

I do feel it in the hamstings and definitely the thighs.

Why does it feel really good? I guess I would describe it as rather than propelling yourself forward, which seems like work, it's as though there is a little engine (in your caboose!) that just goes and goes, and you're just kind of riding along on top of it.

There is a posture adjustment that happens in the hips that makes your butt stick out more (at least for me). The butt seems to be powering the whole operation. It's definitely more efficient. It looks slightly different, than the average runner, but not noticeably (unless you're looking for it).
I think it actually looks pretty good. I would call it an elegant running style.

I haven't perfected it yet but I know now what the objective should feel
like.

Does that answer it? I'll keep you updated as to how I progress as a runner
based on this.

L

Andrew is another student, who races every other weekend and this was his response to my questions:

Thanks for your idea, it definatly makes sense.
I've already started to try something very similar to that, based on our last conversation. the whole running with your legs, instead of on them. And I remember what you said about keeping as upright as possible, almost to where your leaning back. I do feel a difference in energy conservation, and efficiency. It does seem easier to run that way. But still when I tire it's difficult to think straight, and to remember that stuff. I'm working hard on though. Every time I start to get tired I try as hard as I can to think straight because I know it will get easier and I will be able to run faster longer. It's amazing how much of racing is in the mind isn't it. I'm glad you threw the phrase "pulling your body" in there, that gives me another thing to concentrate on, and reduce the drifting of the mind. I always thought it would be easier to think about different things when you run, you know, to try and forget about the pain. I was reading some of Jeff Galloway, and he said to try and concentrate as hard as you can on the task at hand (race). That has also helped. When you said "pulling the body" though, I was not only astounded by the sense that it made, but also by the fact that I never thought of that before. I guess I'm not quite as experienced as I thought. I will try the walking, even though I hate walking. But some how when you explain these methods, I can't not try them.

Ok, so I'll jump right in....

ninetonight... Did you bother by chance to read the New York Times article? So where does the Kenyan women's weight transfer efficiency advantage come from? Can you reproduce the same measurements? You waste energy and they don't. Energy saved can be applied to one of two choices, longer distance, or higher speed. My running students have that choice and you don't.

Cheap shots are easy, but then again, I have yet to meet a movie critic that has ever made a movie......

If you want to have any impact with me, then why not try a formula of biomechanics to prove your superiority. Since you have no wit, try math. It will mean more to other readers.

Considering that Olympic medals are determined by .01 second differences, I'm offering a different perspective for competitive runners (hence the web site name). EVERY runner I have ever taught, has improved their peak speed by 20% with less than an hour of teaching.

Until you can do the same, try another approach...

Race walking is an Olympic event which operates under sanctioned rules of proper biomechanics. What I teach has nothing to do with racewalking. I posted the article in a running web site for that reason. They swing their arms to maintain balance, and I don't need to waste the energy.

As to leaning backwards, the biomechanic goal is to take the pressure from the lower spine. The more forward lean, the greater the energy wasted to keep the torso upright due to bodyweight impact.

When one's foot hits the ground, the biomechanic measurement of the torso is to buckle forward from natural forward momentum. Some coaches refer to that fact as overstriding. How efficient or inefficient you walk and run determines how much energy you waste to stop the unwanted forward motion of the torso upon foot strike impact.

They're sometimes referred to as prepatory contractions. It's not about leaning backwards like the, "minister of silly walks." It's about shifting the natural center of gravity you run from to eliminate the muscular strain of keeping the torso upright with each impact. It's just a more natural and balanced way to do it.

Runners experiencing back pain will have a better understanding of the biomechanic formulas behind the logic.

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posted Jul-31-2005 03:50 PM               

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posted Jul-31-2005 03:55 PM            

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posted Jul-31-2005 06:40 PM               

Your name says it all. If there was any secret to running faster by shifting your biomechanics then all the top coaches would be talking about it, and not some nameless dude on a web site. The Kenyan men have actually come out and said they just run, that they don't think about biomechanics and the number of paces per minute or any of that stuff. Ditto for their coaches. You are a sham, and your infomercial post is shameless. Good bye.

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posted Jul-31-2005 10:20 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by sport jester:
the biomechanic measurement of the torso is to buckle forward from natural forward momentum.

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This is total gibberish. "Sport Jester," whoever you are, do you honestly believe the quote above makes any sense whatsoever? You can't be a native speaker of English, right? The phrase "the biomechanical measurement of the torso is to buckle forward" is either idiotic or written by someone who doesn't speak/write English very well. In fact, your whole article appears to be written by someone with a very incomplete understanding of English. It doesn't matter whether your English skills are poor or your cognitive skills are poor--either way, your article makes little sense.

I think the "Troll Alert" sign should be posted on this thread.

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posted Aug-01-2005 04:30 AM               

I just look at the statistics of running injuries, which are accepted at 60-75% of runners injuring themselves in any given year. In one study I found online, running was the number two sport in America (behind basketball) for emergency room visits to hospitals.

Here's my question to you and my clients. "If an airplane crashed 75% of the time, would you fly in it?" So why do people run the way they do? Wouldn't you want to prevent injuring yourself?

If you get by the hype, even top physicians admit that they don't even know what truly causes Runner's Knee or Patellafemoral pain. "Overuse," injuries are an unknown factor in running injuries. Yet the bookshelves are full of cures to running injuries. Hey, if the doctors don't know what causes the injuries, then how do running coaches know the cure?

Sure you can buy shoes for motion control, for pronation, supination, and other podiatric ailments. Expensive shoes may numb the pain, but they don't address the reason you needed orthodics in the first place. If you don't change your biomechanics, you're setting yourself up for an even more severe injury.

Even the shoe companies know that the more expensive of shoe you purchase from them, the slower you run, and the more likely you are to injure yourself. Sports medicine in reality is quite ignorant on what causes your injuries, but then again they only make money if you're injured. So why should they help you stay healthy?

My personal world is one with an interest in the history of medicine and I have a collection of medical textbooks dating as old as 1830. What I discovered was that knee and back pain doesn't enter medical books until after World War II in any great number. And for social connection; until WWII, 50% of the American population were farmers. Today less than 3% of our population earn their living on farms.

If you ask any biomechanic, they'll tell you that the human body isn't designed to walk or run on concrete. Our farming history is gone, and we have yet to learn to adapt to a very abrupt change in our walking and running environment. The shoe companies have tried to sell you their adaptation tools, but for the most part they're failures.

Our biomechanic history for the past hundreds of thousands of years is a history as farmers to walk in mud, sand, dirt and other soft surfaces. In reality our ability to alter our leg and foot biomechanics for balancing in such a wide variety of surface variation is what intreagued me in the first place. That's why I studied human balance.

It's only in the last century that we've changed our walking environment to a very unnatural and ungiving surface. Our feet are meant to leave footprints with every step, and with concrete and tar that reality no longer exists.

Humans simply aren't designed to run on hard surfaces and our inefficiencies in trying to do so predict what injuries we endure. In learning to run on concrete, we've transferred stress loads to joints and muscles that weren't designed to absorb them as we currently force them to work.

Even physical therapists can get your body working again, but they lack any expertise in teaching you to prevent your next injury. And why should they? Their paycheck depends on your needing them.

So I could easily earn my living in surgical rehabilitation, or I could try and create a running technique specifically designed for concrete and street racing. I chose the latter.

Yes the idea of pulling instead of pushing your weight seems rather radical, that I fully admit. Talking with runners that don't like the pounding on their joints when they run, then I wanted to figure out how to walk and run as softly as possible on the street for racing.

The more muscles you can get into any biomechanic process, then the less stress the joints have to absorb. The biomechanics of pulling your weight, add a number of new muscles into your stability and forward motion processes. Integrating them into running is what protects your joints from overuse stresses.

Studying the women of Kenya was to find out how they absorb the added weight of the firewood for joint impact with every step they take, considering how long they walk carrying their loads. My focus was for surgery patients, not marathon runners. The trick for me was to figure out how to translate that difference to runners who don't carry any added weight.

And yes, the boys did pick up the skills of their mothers, only they use it to stalk for hunting or sneaking up on animals for controlling herds of domesticated stock.

So in teaching my surgery patients how to walk softly and take the impact off of their joints, speeds their recovery time and develops the muscular strength to prevent re-injury. It took me a couple of years to figure out how to translate that into teaching a runner to run faster.

I don't describe myself as a running coach, I tell people that I'm a technician. My fascination is the technique of running and how to run without injury. The byproduct of that is simply higher speed.

So what about coaches? I've been called a genius by some, and crazy by others. It depends on how much I threaten their livelihood. As living in Portland, Oregon home of the major sports companies, the coaches of elite runners refuse me any access to even speaking with their athletes. And with little full time employment paychecks for running, the athletes that have wanted to work with me were threatened with losing their sponsorship.

That was the reason for wanting to write for CompetitiveRunner.com in the first place. Running is a universal sport that can't be controlled by the companies or coaches. Given that my clients enjoy and appreciate what I teach, I'm just asking for you to try what I've learned. I'll gladly answer any questions.

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posted Aug-01-2005 07:25 AM            

Well they might not know, but I just go back through the
workouts and feel the tightness in parts of my quad. It's
fairly obvious.

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posted Aug-01-2005 12:12 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by fredurie:
"If you get by the hype, even top physicians admit that they don't even know what truly causes Runner's Knee or Patellafemoral pain. "Overuse," injuries are an unknown factor in running injuries. Yet the bookshelves are full of cures to running injuries. Hey, if the doctors don't know what causes the injuries, then how do running coaches know the cure?"

Well they might not know, but I just go back through the
workouts and feel the tightness in parts of my quad. It's
fairly obvious.

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I agree, that for me, whenever I have knee pain it is generally associated with tight quads. But that is me. I have traditionally run with a significant forward lean, which causes me to rely on my quads. Other people who run more upright or are new to running may have weak quads and be overly tight in their hamstrings and this can also cause of knee pain. So although I disagree with Robert's premise, his article has caused me to rethink the forward-leaning style promoted by Thomas Miller, Danny Dreyer, Nicholas Romanov, and Gordon Pirie, and look again to Michael Yessis, who promotes a more upright style.

The problem with people trying to find any one reason for Kenyan dominance is that there is no one reason. To compete at the highest level the stars all need to be aligned. You can never point to one thing and say "This is it. This is why Kenyan runners dominate distance running." Genetics, training, diet, living at altitude, running style, etc. all contribute to their success. If any one significant variable is missing, then you don't end up being an elite runner.

Victor

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posted Aug-01-2005 12:59 PM               

In the gym, the machines to develop quad strength are leg extensions. That's what the quads do, they pull the lower leg forward. Minor problem; if you're running, and your knees are bent for pushoff, then your quads can't pull the lower leg forward. The pavement is in the way...

If the lower leg can't extend as the leg lift extension intends it, the resistance of the lower leg trying to extend the leg puts phenomenal stress loads on the quads to perform an unnatural biomechanic motion. The stresses to the quads is determined by your leg rotation, called turnout by some coaches or pronation by biomechanics.

The greater outward leg rotation, the increased resistance the kneecap has to function. Pronation is energy wasted pushing your body sideways instead of forward. That's what your arm swing is attempting to counter. Overstressed quads pull the kneecap backwards into the Femur and slow the knee function through unnatural grinding. Thus the pain behind the kneecap.

That's where your quad pain is coming from. Without the lower leg moving forward, the muscular stress of the quads firing are being overloaded.

Using the glutes to pull the Femur back first removes the kneecap stresses of the quad tendons because if you pull your weight, and the Femur back, then the lower leg is extending in a much more natural motion.

Developed glutes pull the Femur rearward and thus increase the fluid motion of allowing the Tibia and Fibula to naturally extend forward. The glutes are added to increased speed and allows the quads to work in a more natural function, and thus easier running and higher speed.

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posted Aug-01-2005 01:45 PM               

quote:

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I think the "Troll Alert" sign should be posted on this thread.

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posted Aug-01-2005 03:46 PM               

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Originally posted by hopper3011:
Good eye Mike, definite troll.

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I think the troll accusation is unfair. If Robert had wanted to troll coolrunning I'm sure he could have found an easier way than by writing a 5000 word article. I don't believe in the theory he presents, but I am pretty sure, based on earlier private debates that I had with him, that he does believe in them. I do question his theories, but not his sincerity.

Victor

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posted Aug-01-2005 04:59 PM               

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posted Aug-01-2005 08:08 PM               

It's like walking on the beach barefoot and then getting back to the sidewalk. Do you notice your balance changes and how different it feels in your first few steps until you adapt?

As to why Kenyan women don't dominate running? Can't say with any certainty. However my perspective goes back to the original NY Times article (if you read it) that they can only integrate this technique advantage when they carry the weight load. Once the weight is removed, their center of gravity is no different than yours, so they would run with the same inefficiencies.

I don't say that the Kenyan runners have mastered the walking skills, I can only state that they utilize as much of the available advantage as possible. It's a small difference, but a recognized one.

All I wanted to do was figure out what it would take to beat them.

And if you want to understand this better, then get on a treadmill and put a gallon of milk on your head and try walking. Push your weight as you normally would, and then try pulling your weight as you walk. You tell me if you notice a difference.

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posted Aug-01-2005 10:01 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by sport jester:
Minor problem; if you're running, and your knees are bent for pushoff, then your quads can't pull the lower leg forward. The pavement is in the way...

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quote:

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If the lower leg can't extend as the leg lift extension intends it, the resistance of the lower leg trying to extend the leg puts phenomenal stress loads on the quads to perform an unnatural biomechanic motion.

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The stresses to the quads is determined by your leg rotation, called turnout by some coaches or pronation by biomechanics.

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The greater outward leg rotation, the increased resistance the kneecap has to function.

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Pronation is energy wasted pushing your body sideways instead of forward.

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That's what your arm swing is attempting to counter.

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Overstressed quads pull the kneecap backwards into the Femur and slow the knee function through unnatural grinding. Thus the pain behind the kneecap. That's where your quad pain is coming from. Without the lower leg moving forward, the muscular stress of the quads firing are being overloaded.

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quote:

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Using the glutes to pull the Femur back first removes the kneecap stresses of the quad tendons because if you pull your weight, and the Femur back, then the lower leg is extending in a much more natural motion.

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But beyond that, when your femur is being pulled backward, why would your lower leg be extending? As we all (i.e., those of us with eyes who've watched runners) know, when the femur is being pulled back, the lower leg is bent, not extended. It extends only after the upper leg has moved forward.

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Developed glutes pull the Femur rearward and thus increase the fluid motion of allowing the Tibia and Fibula to naturally extend forward.

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And, quite frankly, I'm scared to ask what fluid it is whose motion you imagine would be facilitated by stronger ass muscles. I'm just not going to go there.

[This message has been edited by MikeBro (edited Aug-01-2005).]

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posted Aug-02-2005 08:42 AM               

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So in full acknowledgement of not being able to state facts, the urban origins of the runners is that those skills may have been passed on and not yet lost to the influence of city living.

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However my perspective goes back to the original NY Times article (if you read it)

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they can only integrate this technique advantage when they carry the weight load.

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It's a small difference, but a recognized one.

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And if you want to understand this better, then get on a treadmill and put a gallon of milk on your head and try walking. Push your weight as you normally would, and then try pulling your weight as you walk. You tell me if you notice a difference.

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posted Aug-02-2005 09:10 PM               

Humans pronate, whether we like that fact or not, the question for me is why we do it. The exercise I use to teach my perspective is what I call the soldier test. If you stand and keep both feet in parallel postion of proper running form, like you're standing at attention, you'll find it quite easy for someone to push you backwards and side to side. That's muscular stability.

If you keep your heels together and turn your feet outward (and you can't do that without rotation of the entire leg), you'll feel your body be pulled forward. However, you'll find it much more difficult to be pushed around. That's skeletal stability.

If you lean forward with pronation and slowly push off with your feet, you'll feel your body rock from side to side.

Ever seen a baby learn to stand? They pronate significantly because they don't have the muscle strength or coordination to stand up. So they rely on skeletal stability (pronation) to remain upright. When they do walk, they waddle from side to side with exagerated pronation and very short steps.

As adults, we merely become better at muscular stability and decrease our reliance on pronation, but most of us don't get rid of it. The ankle flexation as cause of pronation as you mention is determined by what guage (the measurement of distance between each foot) you run. The shorter your guage measurement, the more likely you are to supinate.

Supinators are in reality trying to accomplish what I teach. To break it into two different motions: Their more efficient in using their femurs to run, but they haven't learned to use their fibula and tibia to match. Their legs are limited in leg rotation to allow their feet to run to centerline, so the feet supinate in compromise.

The shortest distance between two points is a straight line and the most efficient runners run with one foot perfectly in front of the other.

The forward leg swing from the quads is true with the weightless leg, that I agree, however our landing with the weight directly underneath the torso isn't accomplished with a straight leg is it? There is measurable bend at the knee and that's where the hyperloading to the quads and kneecap comes from during that push off.

"Your glute muscles are moving your femur back and forth in its pelvis socket, not just helping it rotate faster in that socket? So your femur isn't rotating in its pelvic socket, but instead being shifted around in it? Pardon my incredulity, but I just want to make sure that this is what you're saying. Is it?"

No, the femur is rotating in the hip socket. You have to have hip rotation because that's the most common reason a runner supinates. The femur is limited by the legs getting in each others way in weightless swing depending on degree of forward lean.

There are three muscles in the butt; gluteus minimus, gluteus medial, and gluteus maximus. Each play a role in managing the rotation of the legs in the hip socket during the pawback of the leg in the most efficient walkers and runners.

It goes to my basic question; If we swing our arms in counterbalance, then what's so out of balance that we need to swing our arms to counter it?

If you've read strength training books or work out a lot, then you're familiar with the idea that the human body is stronger on one side than the other. How can you tell if someone is right or left handed by the way they walk? How does that strength difference interfere with your running biomechanic efficiency? And how does the body compensate for that difference? If a runner is going to use their strongest leg to determine top pace and speed, then how does the weaker leg keep up?

Don't worry, not even the head of sports research or biomechanics for three of the top shoe companies or USTAF biomechanics or coaches could answer the questions.

Hopper

So it's a genetic adaptation? Kind of makes it a moot point as far as using it to learn how to run faster.

No, its not genetic in adaptation, its a situational adaptation to the need to carry the weight as easily as possible.

"So unless they have a 50lb bundle of firewood, there is no advantage? So where is the advantage to a runner? The question for myself was no different. The answer was first to figure out how they walk with the described efficiency in weight transfer, which I did with the firefighters in the article and then figure out how to adapt that principle to runners.

Its about a principle of physics known as RSS-Relaxed Static Stability. It took me over two years to figure out how to do it. That's where my marathon runner at 154 beats per minute could be lowered to 142 BPM running at the same speed after altering his center of gravity no different than the women walk carrying the weight

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posted Aug-03-2005 02:47 PM               

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That's where my marathon runner at 154 beats per minute could be lowered to 142 BPM running at the same speed after altering his center of gravity no different than the women walk carrying the weight.

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posted Aug-03-2005 05:06 PM               

To take this runner from his racing speed and 154 beats per minute rate, and in less than an hour of training drop him to 142 beats per minute allowed him to increase his race distance from his usual 5k to a 10k race with no perceived effort increase.

If the idea were "half baked" then where does the heart rate decrease come from?

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posted Aug-03-2005 06:34 PM               

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The goal of any distance runner is energy conservation.

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posted Aug-04-2005 04:42 PM               

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posted Aug-05-2005 11:09 AM            

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posted Aug-05-2005 01:40 PM               

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The goal of any distance runner is energy conservation.

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Peak speed from point A to B is of course the goal

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As heartrate is a passive measurement to how much oxygen your body needs to function at any given speed, lowered heart rate is lower energy consumption.

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the biomechanic question is that one of the easiest ways to increase your speed is to improve your efficiency of energy consumption.

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