Community: Exchange advice in the forums and read running commentary Resources: Personal running log, calculators, links and other tools for runners News: Running news from around the world Training: Articles and advice about fitness, race training and injury prevention Races/Results: Find upcoming races and past results Home: The Cool Running homepage
Click for more info
Cool Running homepage
Community
discussion forumsviewpoint
| > rules | > faq | > e-mail to a friend | moderator: sue, Warrior1971

Can efficient walking lead to efficient running?


Topic is 9 pages:
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
Post a new topic    
> next newest topic | > next oldest topic
Author Topic:   Can efficient walking lead to efficient running?
stevebur
Cool Runner
posted Sep-09-2005 04:55 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for stevebur   Click Here to Email stevebur     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
sure, i have some comments.

Laura is not really a good pitch person for your "method". before she was jogging up to 16 miles, now she is walking/running 5 miles every other day. she mentions she feels good after the "workout", unlike when she jogged 16 miles. well i would hope she feels better after walk/running 5 miles than jogging 16 miles. and whoever said you were supposed to feel "good" after a workout"? i usually feel a little beat up, meaning i have depleted some physical reosurces that will hopefully replenish stronger with some recovery, that is the whole idea of training. isn't it?

by her own admission she has not documented any speeds/heartrate/time, so at this point there is no proof of any 20% improvement (or any % for that matter), she herself says she has nothing to prove. not a ringing endorsement from what I can see. and since Laura never fully completed a marathon training program before if she does end up doing one off of the new training method there will be no comparison to make.

new ideas are fine, off the wall ideas with no basis in fact are not.

just part of the herd.


IP: Logged

sport jester
Cool Runner
posted Sep-10-2005 02:24 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for sport jester   Click Here to Email sport jester     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hey Steve,

I would say that you’re missing the forest through the trees. In fact she has improved her peak speed running this way. What I was looking to demonstrate is that she does not run in parallel leg motion at all.

From the front view you can see that she neither pronates nor supinates. Most importantly the legs are both moving in biomechanic equality, regardless of strength differential. The overlap of her knees shows why the glutes are more involved in the running process than in parallel leg swing. You can also see that the motion of the foot is perfectly centered underneath the torso, unlike your traditional walking technique. This is centerline thrust as I described in an earlier post and what you have to teach a racehorse to do.

From heel strike in the walking side view, you can see that through the strike and entire arc of lower leg, the heel remains on the ground. In fact it doesn’t begin the lift until the next step is landed. This is how the Kenyan women walk and why their weight transfer efficiency is higher than yours. Kenyan women and the others who walk like them have no push off the forefoot.

The side view also demonstrates that there is no leg drive necessary and thus no waste of energy. The length of the stride is also displayed with heel strike in front of the body and not underneath it.

The front view of the running shows how the above listed advantages result in running with her hands below the control panel of the treadmill, she has no arm swing to speak of.

In the side view of running you can see that the torso is very upright in comparison to traditional runners. And the heel strike is out in front of the torso running as well as walking and with no forefoot landing limitation as you run and thus a longer stride than yours is naturally.

The landing of heel strike It's also not underneath as coaches prescribe and forward lean limits. You can also see that with no push off linear rise is also negligible. Most important to me is how little shoulder, hip lift and rotation, and shoulder rotation is evident. You can also see how minimal the counterbalance arm swing is. The only torso motion is by strength differential and not mandated for balance.

How is this a less efficient (ie:slower) way to run?

To be a less efficient running technique there must be greater energy expended for each step taken regardless if you're walking or running. Describe for me how that's possible?


IP: Logged

stevebur
Cool Runner
posted Sep-10-2005 04:49 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for stevebur   Click Here to Email stevebur     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
i see nothing in Laura's post about improving her "peak speed running", whatever that is. matter of fact she states, "I have not started documenting my speeds/heartrate/time. I have been doing it recreationally". again, not a good endorsement in my mind for your method.

and on second thought i realize your method is nothing new. Mr. Natural was a proponent of the heel strike in front of the body's center of gravity back in the late 60's and early 70's. Unfortunately his running career didn't fare well and he was overshadowed by Shorter and Rodgers with in a few years.
http://www.toonopedia.com/natural.htm

[This message has been edited by stevebur (edited Sep-10-2005).]

IP: Logged

sedentiary
Cool Runner
posted Sep-10-2005 05:00 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for sedentiary   Click Here to Email sedentiary     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I watched the womens 3000m in Monaco today. The winner had very significant forward lean as soon as the pace picked up toward the end. There were also some very upright running
women some 150m behind.

The physics which you are suggesting ("no linear rise = no work") is far too simplistic. You can convince yourself of that as follows:

Sit with your back against the wall, shins and torso parallel to the wall, quads parallel to the ground and remain in this position. Since there is no linear rise no work is performed.

Let us know how long you clung to that theory.


quote:
Originally posted by sport jester:
Yes, you're right in one respect. Humans walk with heel strike biomechanics, we run with midfoot or forefoot landings. The question I ask is why? If walking is more efficient with twice our bodyweight impact force, and we run with four times our bodyweight in impact forces, why did we develop the lesser efficient way to run? [/B]


This is indeed the question. Recall that since the time of HOMO ERECTUS the human species has had the opportunity and indeed the incentive to develop the most efficient style of running.

Just imagine what sort of incentive was offered by the likes of
black mambas pissed off, hungry alligators, hippos run amok or the fearsome now fortunately extinct smiledon.

It's hard to see how the human race could have evolved so erroneously over millions of years of trying.

[This message has been edited by sedentiary (edited Sep-10-2005).]

IP: Logged

sport jester
Cool Runner
posted Sep-11-2005 05:34 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for sport jester   Click Here to Email sport jester     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

Sedentiary,
______________________________________________
“Recall that since the time of HOMO ERECTUS the human species has had the opportunity and indeed the incentive to develop the most efficient style of running.”
______________________________________________

Your quote misses one element; tools. I don’t think it took Homo Erectus very long to figure out he could throw a rock a lot faster than he could run. And we’ve done more to improve our tools through history than we have our running technique. One study I found documents running to be the number two sport in America for Emergency room visits. And with a sport injury rate of 70% average, says to me that room for improvement exists.

I don’t believe that we run “wrong” what myself and a few biomechanics know is that we aren’t designed to run on concrete and other hard surfaces. My goal was to develop a running technique specific to the surface. In order to get rid of the pounding to the joints, eliminating linear rise dramatically cuts the impact forces and the energy that’s wasted to absorb it.

The forward lean you described in the race is generation of power, not speed, that’s the subtle difference in how and why we run the way we do. We think they’re the same thing, while Mother Nature proves otherwise.

As to your wall exercise, I’m not one to follow such pathetic exercises that do more to promote injuries than develop stronger muscles or faster running speed.

Steve,

I guess that R.Crumb knew a lot more about biomechanics than many recognized Touche'

IP: Logged

sport jester
Cool Runner
posted Sep-14-2005 04:59 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for sport jester   Click Here to Email sport jester     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
In another post Hopper was quite adamant that horses don't use treadmills, so I hope this link with photo and explaination reiterates why the treadmill is important in training as well as stating the pulling of the weight off of their front legs is the human equivelent to overstriding

IP: Logged

sport jester
Cool Runner
posted Sep-14-2005 05:00 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for sport jester   Click Here to Email sport jester     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
http://www.mjcrs.com/stables_facilities.htm

is the link to just one horse farm that uses treadmills

IP: Logged

sport jester
Cool Runner
posted Sep-14-2005 05:32 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for sport jester   Click Here to Email sport jester     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
http://www.equinecentre.com.au/_pdf/equilink_dec04.pdf \
Read "Revolution of a Treadmill..."

IP: Logged

tigger
Cool Runner
posted Sep-14-2005 06:57 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for tigger     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sport jester:

The forward lean you described in the race is generation of power, not speed, that’s the subtle difference in how and why we run the way we do. We think they’re the same thing, while Mother Nature proves otherwise.


So why don't you explain the difference then? Do it in the context of a fast runner.

IP: Logged

sport jester
Cool Runner
posted Sep-15-2005 02:41 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for sport jester   Click Here to Email sport jester     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Running for power is no different than how we use the motors in our cars. "Objects in motion stay in motion, objects at rest stay at rest" was Newtons law of motion. A car burns the most fuel just to get the mass of the vehicle to start moving. We use our running technique to accelerate the body from a standstill and get it moving no different.

While cars shift gears to increase speed, we don't alter our running biomechanics to run faster.

I posted earlier to an article in Nature magazine (31 January 2002 pg.494) how a dinosaur called a theropod starts it's run in parallel leg form in a run for power, but shifts itself to running one leg perfectly iin front of the other. In doing so, it's natural stride length doubles. Watch the videos just posted to my original article by Victor.

Running coaches will tell you that we run with our feet shoulder width apart, but how far should our feet be when we run? If it's a variable, then what do running coaches call it?

They have no term for the measurement. In biology, it's called an animal's "running guage" no different than railroad tracks.
The closer your feet can land and push off from your body's natural centerline, the longer your natural stride.

In racehorses it's called running to centerline. The wider your stance is, the greater the rotational forces of the hip and torso has to be countered with arm swing during push off of the foot.

A wide guage stance is actually easy to do in taking short strides with maximum acceleration strength, but stride length is your biomechanic goal.

What defines your body's maximum stride, is if you can run one foot perfectly in front of the other. The shortest distance between two points is a straight line. The closer you can run to that measurement, the easier your body can move.

A muscle can burn energy two different ways, from strength derived, or how many times it fires. If we waste our energy in rapid gait turnover, then we lose energy to higher strength (faster speed). Your running guage determines your natural running efficiency. The wider your running guage, the shorter your natural stride will be.

Try it yourself, in walking with the widest stance you can create. What you'll find is that to walk in wide stance requires amplified counterbalance arm swing. Bring your feet closer together, and the torso movement is easier. Perfection of that measurement is one foot perfectly in front of the other, which means no counterbalance arm swing at all. Watch the videos closely.

Humans aren't taught to alter that measurement while every other high speed running animal does.If you don't know your guage measurement, then you have no measurement to how efficient your stride length truly is. Maximum stride is running for speed. Maximum turnover is maximum accelleration from a standstill.

IP: Logged

hopper3011
Cool Runner
posted Sep-15-2005 07:11 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for hopper3011   Click Here to Email hopper3011     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
In another post Hopper was quite adamant that horses don't use treadmills
No, I wasn't. I said (and literacy appears to be a problem for you so read this slowly): "no horse which has ever won the Kentucky Derby has ever done any sort of incline treadmill workout."
If that's too difficult for you to understand, try this: Good horse trainers, trainers who actually win races, don't use incline treadmills. Nor do they use heart rate monitors, Nike Frees or any of the other crap you prescribe. Plain enough for you.
We all do this sport to win races, or at the very least run to the best of our ability, yet every example of people who use training methods that you approve of is unsuccessful. What does that tell you?
It tells me that you are so invested in being "radical" that you have forgoten about winning races. No big surprise, there are plenty like you, Tom Ivers is a perfect example, so busy grinding his axe he forgot to win any races.
It's no good linking to Michael Clements site, the reason he trains at Kranji is because he can't cut it in the real world. Link to Bob Baffert or Wayne Lucas, trainers who actually handle good athletes and win good races (except that successful trainers don't use your crappy ideas, do they?)

IP: Logged

tigger
Cool Runner
posted Sep-15-2005 08:33 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for tigger     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sport jester:
Running for power is no different than how we use the motors in our cars. "Objects in motion stay in motion, objects at rest stay at rest" was Newtons law of motion. A car burns the most fuel just to get the mass of the vehicle to start moving. We use our running technique to accelerate the body from a standstill and get it moving no different.

While cars shift gears to increase speed, we don't alter our running biomechanics to run faster.


I framed my question to exclude the automobile analagy because it would simply confuse the issue. Autos have torque converters and humans don't. And you don't seem to have a very good grasp of Newton's laws of motion either. Newton said objects will remain in their present state UNTIL A FORCE ACTS UPON THEM. He then went on to define two more laws that....oh hell, never mind.

Since you don't seem to know the relationship between power and speed in a runner let me explain it to you. There is a direct relationship....more power means more speed.

Where does the power come from? It comes from the body acting upon the ground at an angle that optimizes the horizontal force component for the velocity one is running at that time. For faster speeds this means more lean, not less. Take a look at the best runners in the world and you'll see how this applies in real running.

IP: Logged

stevebur
Cool Runner
posted Sep-15-2005 05:34 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for stevebur   Click Here to Email stevebur     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
sport jester
Cool Runner posted Sep-15-2005 02:41 AM               
------------------------------------------------------------------------

While cars shift gears to increase speed, we don't alter our running biomechanics to run faster.


really? i change my mechanics when i want to run faster. so does every elite runner that i have ever watched. even non-elites.

IP: Logged

sue
Moderator of Mainstream Racing
posted Sep-15-2005 05:42 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for sue   Click Here to Email sue     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by stevebur:
really? i change my mechanics when i want to run faster. so does every elite runner that i have ever watched. even non-elites.


I agree, we are NOT like car gears or bike gears. The revolutions of the same person should stay the same whether they are running fast or jogging. The stride opens up as we increase speed, number of strides remain constant.

IP: Logged

sport jester
Cool Runner
posted Sep-15-2005 09:19 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for sport jester   Click Here to Email sport jester     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Ok, so a misstatement on my part. Yes an object requires force to begin moving. I completely agree. That's why we lean forward in the first place, to increase the amount of forward energy we expend. The more upright our initial running posture, the greater energy expended in vertical force, not forward energy. That's what I was hoping to get across to your observation of racers leaning further forward in the Monaco race you described. I used the wrong comparison

What I was hoping to get across was the fact that the measurement of running guage for most runners doesn't change as it does for animals in nature. We run in parallel leg swing and don't alter our gait to maximize leg stride. Coaching pushes higher turnover rates to compensate for longer stride.

In forward lean, longer stride means higher vertical forces and therefore greater bodyweight impact. It goes to the measurement that a average racehorse has a 20ft stride while Secreteriat's is 26 ft.

Standing at rest a horse utilizes a wide guage for balance and is taught to transition into a centerline running for maximum use of their gluteus maximus to run. It allows easier lean in the radius of a track turn. Horses do it, humans don't

IP: Logged

sport jester
Cool Runner
posted Sep-15-2005 11:26 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for sport jester   Click Here to Email sport jester     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
What's the matter Hopper? Haven't you heard of the famous 2000 "Udder Race" of Taffy the race winning bovine?

http://www.cowrace.com/Article%20The%20Udder%20Race.htm

And I quote "The 1,500-pound bovine had never raced before. However, she had been training for several months by working out on a treadmill as part of an MSU research project to determine the impact of exercise on milk production. Nielsen was convinced of Taffy's potential, so he bought her. His hunch paid off when he rode Taffy two laps around McNabb Park's half-mile oval track in front of about 500 curious spectators to place first in the finish. Winning the first WWCRA (World Wide Cow Racing Association) race and a place in the Guiness Book of World Records as the world's fastest cow."


So please don't count out treadmill training advantages with four legged athletes.

And not to think that I don't learn from your perspectives, I have to say that as you stated, finding training material for top horses was impossible. What I did find was articles that stated top horse trainers are highly reluctant to integrate treadmill training with their horses, because (as I've been told in conversations) that they won't risk anything they don't understand.

Tradition in this aspect plays the biggest part of your claim and I'll recognize that. So horses in treadmill research aren't top runners yet. But that same ideology stands with humans and treadmill training as well. Many top runners hate their treadmill time because it changes the way they run. However one member of the US Womens Olympic marathon team trained exclusively on treadmills while living in Alaska as I remember. So how did she beat everyone else who didn't use one?

Since momentum is a balance force utilized by runners, treadmills take that balance factor out of the equasion, and the natural imbalances of a runner are easier recognized.

I use that reality to refine a runners balance and use that improvement as a means to running faster. Most runners,rather than train to improve balance, stay away from the machines. Horses are no different. They're very reluctant to run on treadmills because they've lost momentum as well. A spooked horse is dangerous to those trying to handle them and that's one reason trainers don't use them with top horses.

What I believe is that the training methodology has to be altered. In the wild, horses compete with each other for Alpha Male status. They do it by racing uphill.

Tradition also said that doctors shouldn't wash their hands or sterilize their instruments before surgery. Everything new takes time. Why ignore one more perspective to judge yourself against?

http://www.neosoft.com/~iaep/pages/vetcare/newsletters/researchtoday/researchtoday.html

Quoted "Much has been learned in the field of exercise physiology over the last 20 years. In particular, the advent of the highspeed treadmill has increased our understanding of the cardiocirculatory, respiratory, and muscular responses to exercise in horses. Researchers have been able to monitor heart rates, hematocrits, respiratory rates, oxygen consumption, lactate production, etc., at every possible speed.

It is clear from these studies that the horse is a refined athlete that pushes to the limit the capacity of all these systems during maximal exercise. This research has led to improvements in training regimes (i. e., interval training in Standardbreds), nutrition (i. e., fat supplements), and the diagnosis of diseases that often are only apparent at high speeds (i. e., dorsal displacement of the soft palate)."

So while interval training is common with humans, it's only a recent training tool for horses. Both can learn from each other, and that's one point I want to make.

IP: Logged

tigger
Cool Runner
posted Sep-16-2005 07:30 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for tigger     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sport jester:
What I was hoping to get across was the fact that the measurement of running guage for most runners doesn't change as it does for animals in nature. We run in parallel leg swing and don't alter our gait to maximize leg stride. Coaching pushes higher turnover rates to compensate for longer stride.

Well I was taught that there are two variables....leg turnover and stride length. With respect to the former, coaches preach higher turnover if less than 180 or thereabouts.

(My personal belief on this is that we all have a natural frequency that depends on our body spring/mass/damper characteristics, and that we can shift this a bit up or down by altering our posture, which alters our natural harmonic. If you watch good runners you will see that their center of mass moves forward with minimal up, down or sideways movement.)

On stride length....this depends on final pushoff. Stronger pushoff means more speed, which is accomplished by holding turnover constant while increasing stride length.

I'm not sure there's very much for humans to learn from animal running. They have 4 legs to our 2 & they usually have tails to use as rudders. Some use a complete front/back motion while others use an opposing front/back motion. If you examine their footprints they don't run on a center line as you are recommending.

I don't think anyone here will disagree that good form is important for efficient energy transfer. There are literally tonnes of good books out there now and none that I've seen suggest a form like yours. What does that suggest?

IP: Logged

sedentiary
Cool Runner
posted Sep-16-2005 08:09 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for sedentiary   Click Here to Email sedentiary     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Sport Jester,

I believe that you have a basically sound well thought out business plan going. There is also no doubt that there is a market for your services.

Your marketing efforts

1. establish an association with Kenyans
2. mention basic laws of physics which everyone remembers and no one will dispute

thereby laying a believable theoretical groundwork.

However I detect some flaws in execution.

One of these is the quality of the videos. I can think of overlaying the video with a metric grid, highlighting the motion of feet, knees etc. This would greatly increase the psychological impact.

Another is the main actor in the videos. You are going to have to ditch Laura much as this might contradict your notions of gentility. She can still be used later in before and after testimonials.

Think of it this way: how many runners out there will see the video and think: "this is great, I want to become like that"?

Other than that I don't see any problems for your business plan. Hey, people can genuinely be convinced that they themselves have been abducted by space aliens travelling the vast expanse of the galaxy for no other purpose than sticking up a probe into some humans back side.

[This message has been edited by sedentiary (edited Sep-16-2005).]

IP: Logged

hopper3011
Cool Runner
posted Sep-16-2005 08:40 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for hopper3011   Click Here to Email hopper3011     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Are you really serious with the cow thing? If you are trying to persuade people that you have a clue, that sort of example isn't going to do it.
quote:
However one member of the US Womens Olympic marathon team trained exclusively on treadmills while living in Alaska as I remember.
It would probably be better if you actually went and looked up Christine Clark's training before you used her as an example for two reasons, firstly you will find she didn't train exclusively on a treadmill nad secondly it would make you look better because I wouldn't be able to point out that, once again, you are wrong.
quote:
So how did she beat everyone else who didn't use one?
She didn't. If you had bothered to look it up, she finished 19th.
quote:
What I did find was articles that stated top horse trainers are highly reluctant to integrate treadmill training with their horses, because (as I've been told in conversations) that they won't risk anything they don't understand.
This is where an education might help you. You need to be able to distinguish between people presenting opinions and those presenting facts. Facts are checkable, opinions are like arseholes. The fact is that no Kentucky Derby winner has been trained on a treadmill, the opinion is that people don't understand treadmills. I've got an opinion about the person who stated that opinion, I'll bet you can guess what it is.

IP: Logged

laker
Cool Runner
posted Sep-16-2005 03:05 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for laker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hopper, I believe he was referring to Jenny Spangler, winner of the 1996 US olympic trials marathon, but go ahead and insult him anyway its what you do best.

IP: Logged

hopper3011
Cool Runner
posted Sep-16-2005 04:16 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for hopper3011   Click Here to Email hopper3011     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Jenny Spangler lives in Illinois. sportjester specifically referred to the Olympic runner who lives in Alaska, viz.:
quote:
However one member of the US Womens Olympic marathon team trained exclusively on treadmills while living in Alaska as I remember.
Christine Clark, who won the Olympic Trials in 2000 and was in fact the sole US representative in Sydney, where she finished 19th behind a whole buch of people who don't train on treadmills, lives in Alaska. What was your point again?

IP: Logged

sport jester
Cool Runner
posted Sep-19-2005 01:50 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for sport jester   Click Here to Email sport jester     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Tigger,

We have a lot to learn from animals. Why do you call yourself Tigger anyway? What connection do you make with Tigger to better explain yourself? My connection simply goes a lot deeper. While most feel animals beneath them, I’m willing to humble myself and learn from them.

The four legs VS two legs is the most common response to my studying animals for running observations I hear. Second most popular comment is “Can I smoke some of that?” But the world’s fastest running animal has four legs and I can’t change that. While most humans pay thousands of dollars to have running coaches, not one of them could beat a cheetah in a race or an antelope for any distance race.

My question was very simple; what’s the difference between the cheetah and their prey that also have four legs? They don’t look the same, nor do they run the same. So what separates their skills and can I apply that difference to my own running style is a valid question, don’t you think? It’s not a common question, but why haven’t others asked the same thing.

If I were the only one to think of the human animal connection, I’d say fine. But in the science world, biomimicry is considered one of the newest frontiers of research.

And the whole point for me is that the women of Kenya and other tribes in Africa as well have been studying animals with great success. They walk like cats. That’s the whole tie in this for me.
The number of legs doesn’t matter, a cheetah is the still the world’s fastest runner. I’m just willing to let them teach me how they do it. The women of Africa also respected their skills and adapted their running advantage to carrying their firewood.

To placate the number of leg argument, I offered the story of the Theropod, a monstrous two-legged dinosaur. It doesn’t matter to me, if they’re good, then I’ll humble myself and learn.

Humans look to races in minutes, meters, and miles. Mother Nature measures her races in millions of years. So looking to other animals for athletic inspiration to me was the opportunity simply to ask why any animal living today is alive in the first place. What race of survival did they win, and why?

The cheetah is the world’s fastest runner and horses can run extreme distances. There are a wide variety of horse species, but only one thoroughbred. What separates them? They all have four legs, but very subtle differences in running technique.

Do you look at birds as competing in the race for survival? My world is much more philosophical in nature (no pun intended), yet as stated I got tired of reading the same things in running books over and over again.

My joke is that books and articles of running technique seems to be the only form of writing immune from plagiarism laws for prosecution. We’ve walked and run the same way for 3.7 million years. The women of Kenya were the first documented blip of change in that fact and I wanted to know why.

I wanted to learn and write something new.

So for me, I’m just putting it out there, that this planet is full of some incredible athletes that we’ve simply ignored out of some mysterious egotism. I just wanted to find out what I could learn from any athlete, regardless of sport or number of legs they have that I might be able to apply to my own sport skills.

Grasshoppers have taught me to skate, snakes taught me to row, octopuses taught me how to throw a baseball, and cats, horses, and dinosaurs are my running coach. My teachers may have more legs or even no legs at all, but each is simply the best at what they do and I appreciate them for their skills and (obviously) stand alone in willingness to apply their skills to my sports.

Hey, aren’t you glad that you’ll never know what you read from me instead of “been there, done that.”

And I’m not the only one to think my way. That’s what’s so unique to me. As Africa is home to an incredible variety of animals, the women of Kenya observed the same thing I did long before I did. Why are they so efficient? It’s because they walk like cats. We push our weight, and cats pull theirs forward. The women of Africa simply have the same teacher I do, and that's why I can explain them, while the "experts" can't.

As to your stride statement, yes it’s natural for humans, but why let natural stride limit yourself. What determines your stride and what determines the stride length of other runners regardless of species is my thought process. My question was how to maximize it naturally and that’s why I run like a dinosaur.

Humans determine stride length at push off like you said, but that’s our efficiency downfall. The energy cost is that we push ourselves up higher and risk over striding upon landing. The energy we waste landing is what gives a cat its biomechanic skill as the world’s fastest runner.

Have you ever watched a cat stalk in your neighborhood? Did you notice that they keep their hips and shoulders as close to the ground as possible as they creep along the ground? Humans push themselves up to improve their stride length while felines drop their bodies closer to the ground to improve their stride length. That’s why I’ve been documented to walk at speeds exceeding 9mph. And to do it, my hips drop to the ground to increase my stride and trust me, I pull like h***.

A feline based running technique gets rid of increased bodyweight impact. Which would you choose knowing the difference? That’s why cats are the world’s most efficient and therefore fastest runners. And that’s what the women of Africa have figured out as well.

I just see it and I’m just describing it.

After watching cats slink to the ground, how to drop your hips to increase stride length for a two-legged animal was my question. The answer came from my Theropod running coach. Read the nature article I’ve mentioned and you’ll have a better interpretation of Laura walking and running and why she’s doing it that way.

A 163 million-year-old athlete that’s still in the survival race is something I admire, and reason enough for me to learn from them. If a Theropod is obviously one of the few athletes winning the race of survival through adaptation as they're the ones that first developed feathers, then why can't we adapt a new running gait to keep racing as well?

For the Theropod, the shift of parallel to linear running gets rid of the need for any counterbalance of the tail and most importantly, rotation of the hip structure. Think of a very long garden hose being held in the middle…

If your grasp starts oscillating the hose in the middle, then you’ll create a wave in both directions from your hand, not just in one direction. Which is why your tail as counterbalance statement is incomplete. The Therapod, at 30 ft. long with 6 ft legs if you can imagine, has the same problem of the garden hose. Hip rotation is cause of it’s body and tail wave creations. So to run without any tail or body motion, it changed its gait cycle to centerline running or centerline thrust in shift to a linear running gait eliminating hip rotation.

Only its solution was to simply to get rid of any hip rotation in the middle of its body. This animal, regardless of length, had no tail swing at all. It’s entire body ran with a perfectly straight body posture. And that may have been a factor in its survival today. In humans mimicking this dinosaur means being able to walk and run with no counterbalance arm swing.

That Victor was willing to risk his reputation to publish my article and get this idea out there as its first real publishing, is my appreciation to him. So that’s just a first step for me.

Sedentiary,


Well if space aliens that came across the galaxy and walked up to you with my technique before inserting your probe would that satisfy you?

The people who do listen to me are the ones with back pain (because it gets rid of hip rotation), knee pain (because it takes the pressure off the kneecap), and ones with plantar faciitis (because with no linear rise, there is no pressure to the plantar tendons). So the injured love what I do, now I’m simply going after the racers for the same reasons.

I’ve been teaching this for five years with surgical rehab patients and they enjoy, appreciate, and recommend me to others in the same situation. I agree that if you weren’t in pain, then why would you listen to a dork like me. Because for the same reason this is a more comfortable way to walk and run for surgical patients, it’s a faster way to run for the healthy ones.

I would love to do more formal studies, but for now, this video is the best I could do. What Laura does prove is that my technique is teachable, which is most important because it demonstrates that there are principles of physics applied that are reproducible.

Hopper,

Yes the cow story was a joke… I just wanted to see if you were able to appreciate a bit of humor.

What I do hope you get out of it is that treamill training is a very new frontier in athletes of multiple legs, so don’t dismiss what they can teach you. Horses on treadmills powered factories in the early days of the industrial revolution and that’s the story behind horsepower as a definition of motor output in your car. Did you know that?

And yes training with treadmills isn’t Kentucky Derby normality, but like I said, experts said that surgeons didn’t need to wash their hands either. New ideas take time to adapt.

But in humans, treadmills can be a torture devise of miles of running boredom, or a very unique tool that can improve your balance skills to save wasted energy, or strength development to improve gait turnover efficiency. That perspective is why treadmills are used for surgical rehabilitation for horses and why humans ignore them.

Water emersed treadmills for horses were first used in rehabilitation, and that’s where it’s growing from. In fact water emersed treadmills are now found in swimming pools for human post surgical recovery, so new ideas can go both ways.

My goal is simply to offer a different perspective of training techniques that you and many others probably haven’t thought of trying. And putting that to use is your choice.

Working with Tom Ivers may not meet your standards of horse trainer, but he was willing to let me come into his barn and find out my peak running speed because I could already outrun a 12mph human treadmill. I was also allowed to put on a pair of rollerblades and skate on a horse treadmill to make a training video.

I have a lot of people call me crazy, but Tom was willing to let me do something out of his norm as well as spend time to introduce me to his world that I knew little of. You still haven’t told me the name of any horse you’ve trained, so I take your criticisms with a grain of salt (around my margarita glass).

Tom allowed me into his world to watch, and learn how a horse runs from a three feet away perspective. He taught me their training goals in terms of what muscles of a horse are important in their running biomechanics and how to maximize the stride length of a 1200lb animal. He’s written books on horse training and I still don’t know the title of your books on the subject.

The muscles racehorse trainers develop either by ground running or treadmills is no different. Treadmills simply offer another variable proving even cows that train with treadmills can beat cows that don’t train on them which is a point in itself.

I’m not writing this to express an expertise in training horses. For me it’s about how a horse runs, and how we can apply that to humans. I find it interesting that no racehorse trainers have published a book for humans to follow, because developing speed in a horse is far more sophisticated than it is for humans.

Tom Ivers showed me his world and introduced me to a runner that demonstrated how humans can use our glutes better and more efficiently, and horses simply showed me how they do it. Cats are simply more efficient in how they use their hamstrings more efficiently than humans, but only the women of Africa seem to have figured that out until Victor published my work.

Some people think themselves above having a running coach with four legs or 163 million years old, but from them I’ve developed an appreciation for how these animals have survived a race of millions of years in duration. Your best race hasn’t lasted more than a few hours I’m assuming.

So this is new for most people to read, I accept that. But if you can find me a faster runner than a cheetah, point me in that direction and I’ll make them my new running coach. If you can find me a better distance runner than a 1200lb horse or antelope, then I’ll fully give them my attention to learn from them too.

I’m not looking to details of who trains and what horses train to run. I wanted to know how these animals survived the race of evolution and extinction and figure out how to apply that to humans.

If you think I’m nuts, then fine, walk away and I won’t feel insulted, but for those who might be interested in the principles of physics that separate the cats from any other four legged animal, that you can copy, then I’ll keep writing. If you want the skills from a distance coach of an animal that can run incredible distances for their size at speeds that amaze me, then please keep reading.

New ideas usually scare people, and I’ve taken that in stride. But for those few who might say hmmmm, I’ve never thought of that perspective, then I’ve met my goals in doing this.

And the best part is that I’ve had the exact same conversations with the biomechanic scientists at Nike, and they’ve invited me into their laboratory to have my technique formally studied. That’s the difference in some people. Victor gave my writing an opportunity for others to read that few would accept. Because of him, I’m walking onto the world of the best biomechanics in the world of sports.

I just guess real scientists view my work a little differently than you do. It just takes a different perspective to understand what you’re reading. I guess that’s why you’re definitely no scientist.

IP: Logged

VictorN
Cool Runner
posted Sep-19-2005 05:01 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for VictorN   Click Here to Email VictorN     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sport jester:
Have you ever watched a cat stalk in your neighborhood? Did you notice that they keep their hips and shoulders as close to the ground as possible as they creep along the ground?

They are close to the ground to avoid being seen, not because it is more efficient. When stalking prey, stealth is important, not speed The cat wants to get as close as possible before springing because they know they do not have the ability to run far at top speed. Sorry, but I'm do not see how this applies in any way.

Victor

------------------
www.competitiverunner.com

IP: Logged

sedentiary
Cool Runner
posted Sep-19-2005 05:21 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for sedentiary   Click Here to Email sedentiary     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sport jester:
New ideas usually scare people, and I’ve taken that in stride.

Jester,

What turns people off is your claim that you can improve anyones running speed by 20% since this shows that you have no idea about the level of possible improvements of well trained runners.

At the elite level a one percent impovement in race time is very significant. I don't doubt that this is possible with rehab patients who after all have no speed at all.

I would let go of that claim since it is an immediate turnoff.


IP: Logged

sport jester
Cool Runner
posted Sep-19-2005 09:52 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for sport jester   Click Here to Email sport jester     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Victor,

As cats are solitary hunters, slinking close to the ground maximizes stride length for them. The closer the body, the further out in front of them they can reach.

That's why their prey form herds. 100 antelope is 200 ears combined in strength to hear them coming. The fewer steps a cat has to take, the less chance they have of being discovered. That's their evolution and survival skill. Lowering their bodies is how they do it.

Sendentiary,

The claim of 20% is what I've experienced with those runners I' ve taught my technique to. I"m sure it puts people off because they don't think it possible to acheive. I'm working to have access to the elite level runner, but for the people who want to be better runners, my logic makes sense to them.

Get rid of wasted energy, and apply it to higher speed, what can be more simple than that?

IP: Logged

All times are Eastern Time (US). > next newest topic | > next oldest topic
Topic is 9 pages:
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
Post a new topic    
Administrative Options: > Close Topic | > Archive/Move | > Delete Topic

Hop to:  
Powered by Infopop www.infopop.com © 2000
Ultimate Bulletin Board 5.47d

race directors shop my profile
Sponsored By

| subscribe to the newsletter | subscribe to the news feeds | | about cool running | advertise | race directors | contact us | terms and conditions | privacy |
© 1995-2009, Cool Sports, Inc. All rights reserved. i