posted Jun-27-2005 10:18 PM               

However, make no mistake; training in the heat is very challenging but with great rewards. Training in the heat taught me a great deal about how to race in high heat and humidity. Tricks like not going out too fast, not throwing in hard, mid race surges. I also think that the humidity was very friendly to my asthma.

I think there's also an element of psychology going on with heat acclimatization. I think many people would agree that for many years I owned a race called the Asbury Park 10K. From the 1st year that I ran the race it just seemed to get hotter every year. And every year, foreign runners would take a break from the European Track circuit to make some "easy money" on the US road circuit. The nasty truth was that most of those guys were cooked by the heat and their lack of preparation for those conditions. It also did not help their minds to see me warming up with tanned skin, while their bright, white pasty skin burned.

In any case, let me know if I can help.

Keith

[This message has been edited by kbrantly (edited Jun-27-2005).]

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posted Jun-28-2005 01:01 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by kbrantly:
However, make no mistake; training in the heat is very challenging but with great rewards.

---

Thanks for joining the discussion, Keith. I really was hoping you would because I have a lot of questions for you since, as you mentioned, you train in Florida. And also because you ran the Olympic marathon in Atlanta.

I read that Steve Spence used glycerol, and that you did as well. If you did, what was your experience with it? Could you tell us about your preparations for the Olympic marathon? You knew it would be warm, so did you do anything special? Do you ever use layers of clothing? Train during the hottest part of the day? Etc. And if you know anything about how your teammates prepared for the heat, please share that as well.

Thanks again for joining the discussion. And good to see you back.

Edited to add, I'm hoping that everyone will feel free to join the discussion. Perhaps you can share something from your experience that hasn't already been discussed, or have a question that hasn't been asked.

[This message has been edited by leon2 (edited Jun-28-2005).]

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posted Jun-28-2005 10:50 AM            

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posted Jun-28-2005 10:58 AM            

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posted Jun-28-2005 12:17 PM               

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posted Jun-28-2005 01:05 PM               

As with anything, it seems like one can go overboard with heat training. Take Tigger's hill analogy. If one were training for a flat marathon, does it make sense to do all of ones training on hills? I think not. But some hill work would still be worthwhile. The same thing applies to heat training. If you are training for a cool weather marathon, then why do all your training in the heat. The quality of your workout will suffer: your tempo and intervals will not be as fast as if you ran them in cooler weather.

If you were training for a hilly race, you would run more hills, but would you run exclusively on hills. Maybe, but there still might be time spent on the track. Again, I think the same goes for hot weather races. Run some of those quality sessions in the cool of the morning.

Keith and Benji have indicated how heat training worked for them and I thank them for their contribution, but their success with this approach does not mean it will work for everybody. I would go so far as to say we really don't know if they might have been better off by cutting back some and running some quality sessions in their shorts.

One has to balance the benefit of acclimating to the heat with the need to fit in quality sessions, and I think the approach many are suggesting lacks balance.

Victor

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posted Jun-28-2005 01:20 PM            

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posted Jun-28-2005 01:34 PM            

http://www.runningtimes.com/issues/04mar/pozdnyakova.htm

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posted Jun-28-2005 01:41 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by VictorN:
I hesitate to jump back into this thread because it seems like it is generally one sided and people like Mary who disagree are getting jumped on.

---

As with anything, it seems like one can go overboard with heat training. ... If one were training for a flat marathon, does it make sense to do all of ones training on hills?

I believe that's the message that most of us have gotten -- that there should be some balance. This was mentioned early in the discussion ...

quote:

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I did a 9-miler this morning while it was relatively cool -- a good workout. But I balance that with a good amount of heat training as well. And this is where the sauna comes in. I can do a hard workout in the morning while it's cool. Then in the evening, sit in the sauna at the gym for 30-45 minutes and do some heat training. It has worked very well for me in the past in terms of being able to handle the heat. On easy recovery days I'll do some running in the heat. My long runs usually start when it's cool and end when it's warm. So there's a bit of balance there as well. I mix it up.

---

"The Japanese and Kenyans here in Boulder all train this way on their easy runs."

The impression I got (and hopefully everyone else) is that this is not something they do 100% of the time. They do their hard running. But they have easy days as well. Or as you put it, there is balance.

Keith and Benji have indicated how heat training worked for them and I thank them for their contribution, but their success with this approach does not mean it will work for everybody.

With respect, you're repeating what has been said already ...

quote:

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Originally posted by Benji Durden:
This is not for everyone.

---

No one is saying that this is for everyone. And no one is saying that there is only one way to train for the heat. What worked for Benji may only work for a handful of us.

That is the purpose of this discussion -- to learn all of the different ways there are, or at least as many different ways as possible, and see what will work best for us, as individuals. I'm sure Benji doesn't want everyone to do exactly as he did. And he has made that very clear.

One has to balance the benefit of acclimating to the heat with the need to fit in quality sessions,

Again, no one is saying anything different. We're all in agreement that you have to do quality workouts. But what benefit is it to someone who has done all the quality work, but is not prepared for the heat on race day?

That is the message that is coming across. At least that's the way I'm interpreting the input.

Good discussion so far. Thanks.

[This message has been edited by leon2 (edited Jun-28-2005).]

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posted Jun-28-2005 02:44 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by AndyHass:
Elite runners are in a special spot, and we always need to remember this when we try and apply their experiences to our own training. Elites tend to have maxed out many of the adaptations that we use (aerobic, anaerobic, strength, efficiency, etc). Most of the rest of us have great room for improvement on one or more of these areas. For them, they might be able to use heat training to gain a slight edge without hurting their other adaptations (where they have little left to gain). For the rest of us, I believe we are better served to use the old stand-bys and keep heat training in mind for special circumstances (like a goal 10K in July or something).

---

So true. This is something that needs to be remembered on every thread on every forum by everyone. Sometimes people need to stop trying to do what they can to gain the 1% and go after what is going to get them the 25% (good training).

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posted Jun-28-2005 02:52 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Miles and Miles:
Sometimes people need to stop trying to do what they can to gain the 1% and go after what is going to get them the 25% (good training).

---

quote:

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Originally posted by maryt:
By the way, when it's in the 90s, just 3 days of heat acclimitization doesn't do it, even with the cool water on the wrists - personal observation from today's race.

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But we want to survive the conditions as well.

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posted Jun-28-2005 03:27 PM               

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posted Jun-28-2005 04:25 PM            

PREPARING ATHLETES FOR COMPETITION IN THE HEAT: DEVELOPING AN EFFECTIVE ACCLIMIZATION STRATEGY

These are the key points ...

1. Heat and dehydration can be an athlete's fiercest competitors.
2. Heat exposure and dehydration impair performance, and their negative effects are additive.
3. Acclimatization will reduce the negative impact of heat on athletic performance.
4. Acclimatization is most effectively achieved by exercise in the heat; heat without exercise and exercise without heat are less effective.
5. Acclimatization can be carried out by exercising in a hot room or by training in a hot climate.
6. The major physiological adjustments to heat acclimatization take about 7-14 days.
7. Training volume and intensity should be reduced on first exposure to the heat and then gradually increased. Some high-intensity training should be maintained throughout the acclimatization period.
8. Reducing the intensity and duration of the warm-up may be necessary to keep core temperature from rising too high before training and competing in the heat.
9. Monitoring responses of individual athletes is essential -- individuals respond differently to physical activity in the heat.
10. Records of body mass, urine output and color, and subjective symptoms should be kept by athletes and reviewed periodically by coaches and trainers.
11. Acclimatization increases the athlete's need for fluid to match the increase in sweat rate.
12. Dehydration impairs performance and negates the beneficial effects of acclimatization.
13. An adequate intake of an appropriate fluid before, during, and after training and competition is essential to ensure an optimal response to exercise in the heat.

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posted Jun-28-2005 08:35 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by leon2:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by VictorN:
I hesitate to jump back into this thread because it seems like it is generally one sided and people like Mary who disagree are getting jumped on.[ENDQUOTE]

Victor, I don't think that Mary is getting "jumped on". At least I have done my best to answer her questions in a thoughtful manner. The one thing that I had a problem with was the way she came across in her very first post.

---

I still wouldn't change a word of my first post, Leon, although I think I probably belabored the point too much later on, because there is a lot of good advice from lots of folks on how one can acclimitize if one is going to be racing hot races and that's important.

We try very hard to train in the heat ourselves when we are going to be racing in the heat, and I gave in that very first post my own hints for adjusting training to the heat: saltier, shadier, slower, and shorter - and of course the need to keep hydrated, that goes without saying, but it didn't begin with "s" so I went with saltier for making sure you keep your electrolytes up by drinking something that has salts. That very first post even mentioned keeping speed up by going shorter, and keeping cool before the race itself itself, and mentioned the wearing of ice vests, etc. Yup, all in all a very good post.

However, if you're not going to be racing in the heat, like several of the other posters, I still don't see much benefit to running in the heat or simulating running in the heat if you can avoid it, for the vast majority of runners. What we found on several occasions ourselves was that when we had been training for 2-3 weeks in the heat of the late afternoon in the 80s we did much better in hot races than our fellow rivals who trained only in the early morning in the 60s, especially in one particular race that started at 10am and was usually the first really hot 10K of the season. However, on those few times when the race was on a cool day and the temps were only in the 60s, that heat training gave us no advantage whatsoever over the folks who been training in the 60s all along. Even though we really flew compared to what we had been running in the 80s, it was no faster than what we usually ran in the colder temps of the spring and fall, anyway.

And if you're not living in a climate where the weather is hot all year long and you can't take a long time to build up to training wearing extra clothing in the heat like Benji did (which was not mentioned in that first post that started the thread), I think the way the post that started the thread came across could cause some folks to try some quite dangerous running.

So, train in the heat if you're going to be racing in the heat, for sure, but do it carefullly, build up gradually and I agree 100% with Andy Hass

quote:

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Originally posted by AndyHass:
... to keep the use of heat training in perspective (to survive/do better than the competition at hot races, as you just said) and not as a new way to shortcut/circumvent/substitute development in other areas

---

[This message has been edited by maryt (edited Jun-28-2005).]

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posted Jun-28-2005 09:50 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by AndyHass:
I still have mixed feelings about heat training. If the goal race is going to be hot, I think it's a must. However I still question the value of extra layers when it is already hot enough to bake your core with moderate intensity. I've been training in 90F heat lately and it is all I can do to recover from even easy runs WITHOUT layers. Maybe if you are in a climate where you're already used to 80-90F most of the year you can benefit from extra stress, I don't know.
As an overall training tool, I think the general message of this thread has been a little too rosy for heat training. Say you plan to run the Chicago Marathon -- avg temp there is probably 55-60 (estimating myself). You have 3 options: 1) Layer and do a lot of heat training, including intervals; 2) Run some easy runs and a few moderate ones in the heat, but do the real quality work in the cooler parts of the day; or 3) avoid the heat whenever possible.
I would bet money that you would find better results with #2 or #3 for most runners. These runners would be able to push harder in quality workouts, pushing their aerobic/muscular limits rather than just their heat tolerance. #3 would preserve some heat tolerance as well. I simply cannot believe, and don't believe proof has been forwarded, that heat training is as valuable as many of the other stresses we train ourselves with. Runners doing #1 may have great heat tolerance, but if the race is not hot, I don't think heat adaptations will trump aerobic, strength, and efficiency adaptations gained through faster running not possible in great heat or running in layers for extra heat.
Elite runners are in a special spot, and we always need to remember this when we try and apply their experiences to our own training. Elites tend to have maxed out many of the adaptations that we use (aerobic, anaerobic, strength, efficiency, etc). Most of the rest of us have great room for improvement on one or more of these areas. For them, they might be able to use heat training to gain a slight edge without hurting their other adaptations (where they have little left to gain). For the rest of us, I believe we are better served to use the old stand-bys and keep heat training in mind for special circumstances (like a goal 10K in July or something).
Just want to try and put the discussion in the overall training perspective.

---

Good post, Andy. Personally I follow the option 2) you mentioned. I do some of my easy runs at the hottest time of the day to gain some of the benefits of heat training, but I try to run my hard workouts early in the morning or in the evening so the heat doesn't detract from my more important sessions.

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posted Jun-28-2005 10:14 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by maryt:

However, if you're not going to be racing in the heat, like several of the other posters, I still don't see much benefit to running in the heat or simulating running in the heat if you can avoid it, for the vast majority of runners.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Benji Durden:
This is not for everyone.

---

I agree 100% with Andy Hass

I don't want this to become an argument. It seems that you want to be right about something. And that you're looking for people to take sides with you. That's not what we're here for.

You say that you agree with Andy. I felt no need to respond to him because he was basically saying what I previously said, (which I don't think you read) ...

... to keep the use of heat training in perspective (to survive/do better than the competition at hot races, as you just said) and not as a new way to shortcut/circumvent/substitute development in other areas

That is the point that should have come across as the prevailing message of this thread already -- that we're not using heat training as a way to gain an extra "edge". But that's not what I said. I'm not right. Don't agree with me. It's simply what I understand.

You say that you don't see much benefit to running in the heat or simulating running in the heat if you can avoid it. While you're agreeing with Andy, perhaps you also agree with him on this ...

quote:

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Originally posted by AndyHass:
I did not mean to indicate that I think heat training is ONLY good for hot races. If you are acclimatized for a race in 90 degree weather and it's only 55, you will FLY.

---

To which I later commented ... there are no guarantees.

But the point of this thread isn't to become a who's right and who's wrong. We're not here to argue, agree with anyone, or take sides. We're here to listen, learn, and have an open mind. Apply to our own training what we've learned from others. And if we can't apply it, we can disregard it.

Edited to say, I think most of us are content to just sit back, consider all that has been said, and decide if or how we want to train for the heat.

I have contacted other runners to get their comments. But only for the purpose of learning different approaches. Perhaps we'll get some information that is useful to us.

[This message has been edited by leon2 (edited Jun-29-2005).]

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posted Jun-28-2005 11:10 PM               

interesting thread because i was just wondering on my run today whether the work i do in the summer is as beneficial as the stuff i do when it's cooler

i know for a fact it's slower

i made a concession today to the heat and waited till it was almost dark so at least i didn't have the sun beating on me

alas, it was still 94

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posted Jun-28-2005 11:23 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by easytarget:
this doesn't really add to the discussion,

---

You said exactly what we want to hear ... people's thoughts, experiences, hopes, ... etc.

I just want to add that one of the best races of my life (my first sub-3 marathon) came after training during the summer in the heat and humidity of Michigan. I'd finish my 20-milers and it looked like someone had sprayed me with a hose -- my clothes were soaked. (I only wore shorts and tshirt). And in October, when it was much cooler, I did "fly". So, just from my own experience with training in the heat, which has been very positive, I will not avoid it. I will use it. Because to me, it's a win-win situation. If the weather on race day is warm, I'll be prepared. And if it's cool, well, as we say in German, umso besser (all the better). But that's just my experience. Your's may be different.

[This message has been edited by leon2 (edited Jun-29-2005).]

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posted Jun-29-2005 03:30 AM            

Last comment, from someone who wants to be competitive and isn't naturally gifted but usually works very hard at it, heat can be a psychological killer. I was thinking how much I loved running, enjoyed being out, even struggling through hard work-outs this spring. First few hot days, bright sunshine, long runs, back came the negative thoughts... "why am I doing this, what's the point? What a waste of my time, etc." Sun and heat when not acclimatized to them definitely make you suffer and take the enjoyment out of running for me. But I too have been doing #2 above and hoping it pays some dividends with continued perserverance.

Good discussion by the way-- thanks all.

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posted Jun-29-2005 01:02 PM            

Do you think the 13:30 5k guys think of themselves as elite
if they're getting lapped by someone. Yet, they could be
training harder. It's all relative.

Did the guys training through 3 hour workouts with Igloi
start out as elites, or did the systematic increase in workload
over time create their "elite" status.

If you don't want to do the work, then don't. Nobody cares.
Just don't rationalize it.

Igloi:

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=440141&page=0

[This message has been edited by fredurie (edited Jun-29-2005).]

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posted Jun-29-2005 09:33 PM            

I read alot about Mr.Durden's training way back in the 80s and employed some of his ideas with quite good results.

However I found that running in extra clothing ( with my weighted gloves) seemed to have a negative effect.

Of course there are so many variables in one's training and life it is hard to pick out what specifically isn't working.
I did work the layered clothing in gradually but was finding myself feeling flat during my training and racing. Once I reverted to shorts and singlet I started running better.

I think I probably had added one too many stresses to my system, as I was already training hard, working hard and the weather was quite warm 30-35 degrees C on most days.

In the cooler months I experimented with the extra clothing once or twice a week on my hard days but only on the easier paced of my two runs. This didn't leave me feeling flat, but I'm unsure whether it was beneficial.

My logic tells me that increasing your workload by using heat should cause improvement provided that the extra load is within the individuals capacity to handle the extra stress.

Not wanting to hijack the thread but in response to Fredurie's comment that we can all train like the elite runners. Well no I think most of us probably can't. Elite runners become elite runners because they have unique physiological and PSYCHOLOGICAL abilities. Most elite runners choose to focus on their running ahead of careers and often even family. This makes sense if you have a unique opportunity to succeed in your sport at a high level. For most others running is just a source of recreation. To put your body and mind through the demands of elite level training in such circumstances will likely have a negative impact.

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posted Jun-29-2005 11:23 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by easytarget:
this doesn't really add to the discussion, it's more just a hope on my part that training in hot/humid weather does in fact lead to benefical results in training since i've got no alternative down here in texas right now

interesting thread because i was just wondering on my run today whether the work i do in the summer is as beneficial as the stuff i do when it's cooler

i know for a fact it's slower

i made a concession today to the heat and waited till it was almost dark so at least i didn't have the sun beating on me

alas, it was still 94

---

I've just scrolled through the last few days of responses and still think there are varying degrees of heat "training" and "acclimatization". People who live in Florida, Texas, etc. have to heat train during a minimum of 5 months of the year in some cases. My opinion is that it would be insane for me to go out and train in a full track suit on June 29th in Florida's 92 degree humid heat. I fail to see what possible benefit it would bring to me or anyone else. I'm also not sure that this is what Benji Durden is referring to.

As to "Heat Acclimatization" I do agree that running easy runs or even workouts for those in more temperate climates in full sweats when temperatures are in the 80's is a good idea to acclimate themselves. I did it when I live in the north many years ago.

One issue that I'm still unclear on is whether Benji or Keith Brantley believe that running in extreme heat made them faster under more normal racing conditions- not just more heat acclimated.

As I've written before I've never come out of a Florida summer in the same shape as a northern winter and I trained very similarly. The difference, I think, is that the Florida training was just much slower.

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posted Jun-29-2005 11:29 PM               

i can only assume you meant to post this at letsrun

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posted Jun-30-2005 05:52 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Jeff Dutra:
I've just scrolled through the last few days of responses and still think there are varying degrees of heat "training" and "acclimatization".

---

We learned that from this past Olympics. Deena said, "I did heat training in long sleeved clothing in 75-80 degree Farenheit heat at altitude to prepare ..." Jen was asked if she wore extra clothing and she said no because it was already very warm. It was in the 90s.

RWD: Have you stayed in the Philadelphia area for most of your training for the Olympics?
JR: Yes. I felt comfortable doing that. I felt this would be the best place to prepare, because it's usually warm and humid (in the summer). I usually run well when I get accustomed to do so. Hopefully, I'll already be somewhat adapted to the weather over in Athens.

And there are varying tolerances to the heat as well, which can perhaps explain why Benji Durden is able to wear extra layers in hot weather. It's something he adapted to. And an athletes' level of fitness will also determine how well they are able to handle the heat. From the article, Keeping Sports Participants Safe in Hot Weather:

Well-conditioned athletes have a higher heat tolerance than their sedentary counterparts; in other words, fitness improves heat tolerance.

Hopefully through this discussion we will be able to put together a spectrum of various ways to train through the heat so that each individual can determine which method would work best for them. That is why the input from many different runners is so useful. A person training in one state may do something differently than someone living in another.

[This message has been edited by leon2 (edited Jun-30-2005).]

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posted Jun-30-2005 07:47 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by leon2:
From the article, Keeping Sports Participants Safe in Hot Weather:

Well-conditioned athletes have a higher heat tolerance than their sedentary counterparts; in other words, [b]fitness improves heat tolerance.

][/B]

---

That makes sense but from a heat transfer point of view rather than fitness. Heat has a more difficult time getting through layers of fat. Fat acts like insulation on your house walls.

It's well known that obese people should not work in high heat/humidity occupations for the same reason. I'm aware of at least one mine (Australia) where they do physical testing to eliminate high risk workers.

Another factor is age. The older one gets the less tolerance one has for heat/humidity & the more difficult it becomes to work under high heat/humidity conditions.

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