posted Jun-24-2005 03:36 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by AndyHass:
[b] I guess I mis-"spoke". I did not mean to indicate that I think heat training is ONLY good for hot races. If you are acclimatized for a race in 90 degree weather and it's only 55, you will FLY.

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You'll certainly run a lot faster in a race in 55 degree weather over how you would do in 90 degree weather no matter how well your acclimatized but the question is would you run just as fast in the 55 degree weather if you trained in 55 degree weather?

An interesting point from my own career is, while living in the north, I would typically use the winter months to run mainly distance runs with very little fast running whatsoever aside from maybe some hills. Typically I would come off this training in good shape but not PR shape, run some hard workouts on the track and within a few races I'd be running faster than ever. I guess I could reach the conclusion that it was the cold weather running that made me improve but I think it was more the regeneration I experienced from doing mainly distance running which allowed me to run faster coming off of it.

[This message has been edited by Jeff Dutra (edited Jun-24-2005).]

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posted Jun-24-2005 03:40 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by Tamblyn:
I also recall seeing on tv an olympic gymnast describe her weight loss technique - she would tape plastic garbage bags over her workout clothes and go running.

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I don't know how bright that is.

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posted Jun-24-2005 03:43 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by Benji Durden:
[B]I carry a small water bottle with me these days that I fill with decaf green tea (mint flavored). Back in the early 80's I depended on gas stations to be open. If I wasn't running at least 2:20, I just didn't worry about drinking. I apparently have a high tolerance for dehydration.

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This could simply be from a high degree of acclimatization. I'm the same way. I never drink during a run and those are up to 2 1/2 hours long in Florida heat.

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posted Jun-24-2005 03:45 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by Jeff Dutra:
I don't know how bright that is.

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Never said it was bright - just giving another example of how people use heat to train. This woman's goal was to lose weight for a national gymnastics program and the running in garbage bags was her technique.

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posted Jun-24-2005 03:48 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by Tamblyn:
Never said it was bright - just giving another example of how people use heat to train. This woman's goal was to lose weight for a national gymnastics program and the running in garbage bags was her technique.

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I would think that she opens herself up to serious dehydration issues.

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posted Jun-24-2005 04:22 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Benji Durden:
I apparently have a high tolerance for dehydration.

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Perhaps this article can help to explain why some runners are able to go longer without fluids than others ...

In humans the increase in plasma volume (PV) during daily exposure to the heat is an important mechanism contributing to physiological heat acclimation responses (5, 38, 39). Such an adaptive mechanism is attractive given the impairments to physiological function and exercise performance that occur when body water stores are inadequate to meet simultaneous cardiovascular and thermoregulatory demands (35). The increased thermoregulatory and cardiovascular stability conferred by adaptive increases in PV is of benefit for prolonging exercise, particularly in the heat (5, 38, 43). Similar advantages appear to accrue from the large increases in PV. ...

JAP article

It's an interesting study, and well worth reading, if any of you have the time.

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posted Jun-25-2005 05:51 AM            

When core temperature rises (or falls) beyond a pre-set range you will begin to go through a number of autonomic responses from sweating (shivering when cold) to passing out. Blood flow rate to the skin, which is the major core cooling mechanism will rise in an attempt to eliminate excess heat. This means the heart beats faster and devotes more resources away from exercise & towards body survival.

How much is enough to effect change? I don't know for sure. I suppose it depends on the individual and how much stress he/she can tolerate.

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posted Jun-25-2005 08:38 AM            

One is that

quote:

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Blood flow rate to the skin, which is the major core cooling mechanism will rise in an attempt to eliminate excess heat. This means the heart beats faster and devotes more resources away from exercise & towards body survival

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The other is sweating. Keep in mind that once you becomes acclimitized, your body can actually start doing these things BEFORE you need them, at least the sweating - that I know for sure from experience freezing and my muscles getting cold in those first few cool fall races as I start to sweat buckets as soon as the gun goes off and I start to run. I've tried the mind control and talking to my self - "Hellooo... It's no longer 80s stupid body - enough already with the sweating!" but the response still lasts for a week or two until I lose the heat acclimitization. So, in that case the sweating reponse gained form heat acclmitization is great for races in the 80s and deven down into the 60s, but actually hurts if there 's a real sudden cold snap.

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posted Jun-25-2005 09:52 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by maryt:
disadvantages to wearing extra clothing to force your body temperature up to get more heat acclimitization, if you are NOT going to be racing in the heat.

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If the person IS racing in the heat, is it alright to wear extra clothing?

(A simple 'yes' or 'no' will do.)

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posted Jun-25-2005 10:10 AM            

I drove to Niagara Falls in 84 to watch the U.S. marathon
trials. I think that Pfitz beat Salazar, but I don't know how
hard these guys would push the trials.

[This message has been edited by fredurie (edited Jun-25-2005).]

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posted Jun-25-2005 11:23 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by leon2:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by maryt:
[b]disadvantages to wearing extra clothing to force your body temperature up to get more heat acclimitization, if you are NOT going to be racing in the heat.

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If the person IS racing in the heat, is it alright to wear extra clothing?

(A simple 'yes' or 'no' will do.)[/B][/QUOTE]

Leon
Extra clothing when you're already running at temps in the 80s and above temps you would be racing? No, I wouldn't do it myself, and I don't think it would advisable for the majority of people to try it, especially those who live in climates with short summers. After all, Benji said it took about a year for him to get fully covered.

I'm not arguing about the need to heat acclimitize to the temperature you are going to be racing in the heat, and I said that I do that myself, and have even worn extra clothes in the winter when I was going away to race under summer-like conditions. However, I still don't understand the rationale for piling on extra clothes when it is in the 80s, already above the temperature you are going to be racing, and making your core temperature rise and adding that extra stress and diverting blood away from your working muscles as tigger pointed out, especially if you are NOT going to be racing under extra hot conditions, but using heat just as a training tool. That seems to be what is being recommended.

I'm not trying to argue - I really would like to understand how it might work from a physiology point of view, because on the surface it just doesn't seem reasonable to me. Seems like it would work just as well or better to develop your speed to run faster and/or longer at the temperature you will be racing, rather than trying to simulate much hotter conditions and then having to run slower and/or for shorter distances and increase the risk of heat-related illness. Benji did say it took a long time to get really used to it - a year, which is hard to do if you live where you have a short warm season to work with. I guess I buy the fact that you are working your heart harder without the pounding on joints and legs that faster speed or longer distances would give, but I guess I'm just leary of raising your core temp too much.

I also wonder how it works the othe way around - do runners who train hot have trouble if they have to race where it's cold?

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posted Jun-25-2005 11:56 AM            

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posted Jun-25-2005 12:03 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by leon2:

In humans [b]the increase in plasma volume (PV) during daily exposure to the heat is an important mechanism contributing to physiological heat acclimation responses.

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An increase in plasma volume is going to improve one's endurance performance regardless of whether you're running in a hot environment or not. Heat training would seem to be beneficial even if you're not racing in hot weather.

In his 'Guide for the Elite Runner' Marty Liquori talks about his training in the Florida summer just prior to setting the American 5,000m record (13:16 ) in Europe,

" Two weeks before the meet I was wondering if I should waste my time travelling to Europe for the race. My workouts were so slow I felt it would be embarrasing to even try to compete at the world class level. I was totally drained, both physically and emotionally by weeks of intensive heat training."

In two weeks in Europe in cooler weather he ran a 3:38 1500m, the AR in the 5000m and finished 2nd to Miruts Yifter in the World Cup 5000m. He concludes by saying,

" I think running in 85 or 90 degrees in Florida, Tanzania or Kenya can be a boon to training, so long as the temperature and humidity don't get so high as to actually limit the amount of work the athlete is able to put in every day."

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posted Jun-25-2005 12:12 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by maryt:
Extra clothing when you're already running at temps in the 80s and above temps you would be racing? No, I wouldn't do it myself, ...

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Benji said it took about a year for him to get fully covered.

So, as with all things, such as mileage for example, a person can build up to it. No one is suggesting that a person go out today wearing full sweats and do all their workouts in the heat.

However, I still don't understand the rationale for piling on extra clothes when it is in the 80s ...

You may not understand the rationale. It doesn't mean that the method isn't effective. People didn't understand the rationale for Zatopek doing 400m intervals. But it was effective. And that's what matters.

I really would like to understand how it might work from a physiology point of view, because on the surface it just doesn't seem reasonable to me.

I would like to understand a lot of things myself. But let's face it. There are a lot of things that we simply cannot explain, and will never understand. And trying to use reason to explain everything doesn't always yield answers that are satisfactory. That's one of the purposes of this discussion -- to further our knowledge and understanding. And that requires an open mind, and a willingness to accept that we don't know it all.

The most important thing that we have to keep in mind is that everyone is different. (I hate saying that because it's such a cliché.) And we're all going to have different experiences training in the heat. Everyone has different sweat rates, ... etc. And not everyone who has been acclimatizing for a race in 90 degree weather is going to "fly when it's only 55". There are no guarantees.

The best we can do is experiment, see how we respond as individuals, and learn from our experience. It's folly to say, I'm not going to give that a try because a woman on a message board says that it's not a good idea.

Sometimes you just have to have faith, and take the word of someone who's "been there, done that" and say, "what the hell, I'll give it a try". Because there's nothing that beats experience. And when an Olympic marathoner, who has run more miles in the heat than the total number of miles I have run in my lifetime, says that he benefits from heat training, that's enough evidence for me to at least consider giving it a try (which I've already done in the past). I'm willing to take his word for it, unless someone can actually prove that it's ineffective. And if Deena Kastor used it to prepare for her race in the heat, and win an Olympic bronze medal, that's additional evidence. She ran faster in Athens than she did in St. Louis. (Okay, maybe it was her Cytomax Peachy Keen sport drink that made the difference.)

Let's assume that the person is taking all of the precautions necessary while heat training to prevent heat illness.

Are you saying that Deena was wrong to wear extra clothing to prepare for that race?

"Kastor is preparing for a hot, humid race. Average conditions for August in Athens are 91 degrees with 47 percent humidity, with 100-degree temperatures common. The women's marathon begins at 6 p.m., ... She's done what she could to prepare, running later in the day at times, or running while wearing more clothing."

You can't pretend to know more about heat training than an Olympic bronze medalist. Maybe it's something you wouldn't do, but it proved to be effective for her. And maybe we should take notes.

And you can't pretend to know more than an Olympic marathoner who did hard workouts in the heat while wearing extra clothing, who got the idea from a runner who himself was an Olympic marathoner, and another who was a world record holder in the marathon?

quote:

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Originally posted by Benji Durden:
I wore sweats year round. More layers in the winter, but still at least 1 layer even on the hottest days. I would do repeat 800's in full sweats and rain suit in the middle of the day. A typical run like this would be 45-60 minutes warmup fully bundled up to the track, 6x800/400 with the 800 being about 2:20 (I could run that pace for 15K without the sweats) and then 45-60 minutes warmdown.
...
i didn't come up with the idea. I got it from Ron Daws (1968 Olympic Marathoner) who got it from Buddy Edelen (last American male to hold the world record for the marathon). I'm sure there were others who did this as well. The Japanese and Kenyans here in Boulder all train this way on their easy runs.

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And if he says he raced well, no matter what the conditions were, as a result of heat training ...

quote:

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Originally posted by Benji Durden:
As for heat training only being useful for hot races, that wasn't my experience. I raced better when I heat trained no matter how warm or cool the weather.

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... and has a 2:09:58 marathon (one of the fastest marathon times by an American) to back it up, that's good enough for me.

Benji coached Kim Jones to a 2:26:40 marathon (7th fastest time of all American women). How many 2:26 marathoners have any of us coached?

In the book Run With The Champions Benji Durden is ranked among the 100 greatest American runners. What is our ranking?

How many Olympic teams have any of us been on? (Keith, you can raise your hand on this one.)

marathon PR:
Benji Durden - 2:09:58
the rest of us ...

Sorry maryt, but my gut feeling tells me that I can learn more from Benji, and will benefit more from listening to him. I like his credentials. And experience.

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posted Jun-25-2005 12:24 PM            

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posted Jun-25-2005 12:46 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by DanMoriarity:
In his 'Guide for the Elite Runner' Marty Liquori talks about his training in the Florida summer just prior to setting the American 5,000m record (13:16 ) in Europe,

" Two weeks before the meet I was wondering if I should waste my time travelling to Europe for the race. My workouts were so slow I felt it would be embarrasing to even try to compete at the world class level. I was totally drained, both physically and emotionally by weeks of intensive heat training."

In two weeks in Europe in cooler weather he ran a 3:38 1500m, the AR in the 5000m and finished 2nd to Miruts Yifter in the World Cup 5000m. He concludes by saying,

" I think running in 85 or 90 degrees in Florida, Tanzania or Kenya can be a boon to training, so long as the temperature and humidity don't get so high as to actually limit the amount of work the athlete is able to put in every day."

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posted Jun-25-2005 02:46 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by tigger:
Just think about how rediculous this discussion would be if you replaced the work "heat" with the word "hills." So why would anyone not recognize the need to run in the heat if you plan to race in the heat?

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That I understand. What I don't understand is there seems to be some proponents of training in the heat to improve one's overall performance in more moderate temperatures. My experience has been that this does not work and actually has had the opposite effect.

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posted Jun-25-2005 02:51 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by leon2:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by DanMoriarity:
[b]In his 'Guide for the Elite Runner' Marty Liquori talks about his training in the Florida summer just prior to setting the American 5,000m record (13:16 ) in Europe,

" Two weeks before the meet I was wondering if I should waste my time travelling to Europe for the race. My workouts were so slow I felt it would be embarrasing to even try to compete at the world class level. I was totally drained, both physically and emotionally by weeks of intensive heat training."

In two weeks in Europe in cooler weather he ran a 3:38 1500m, the AR in the 5000m and finished 2nd to Miruts Yifter in the World Cup 5000m. He concludes by saying,

" I think running in 85 or 90 degrees in Florida, Tanzania or Kenya can be a boon to training, so long as the temperature and humidity don't get so high as to actually limit the amount of work the athlete is able to put in every day."

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This post was helpful but it also explains, at least partially, my experience in training in the heat.

In short, my experience is that putting in the miles is something that can be adapted to over time. The problem with training in the extreme heat and humidity of Florida is that it can be difficult to get a lot of quality training in during the summer.

We also may be speaking of different degrees of heat training.

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posted Jun-25-2005 04:21 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by maryt:
I still don't understand the rationale for ... using heat just as a training tool. That seems to be what is being recommended.

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What I wanted to suggest is that the more acclimated you are to the heat, the better you will be able to handle (train in) it. I just thought that was understood.

If someone spends most of the time during the warmer months training on a treadmill in front of a fan, trying to stay as cool as possible for as long as possible, they will have a much harder time dealing with the heat than someone who has already spent time training it. The same with outdoor runners who avoid training in the heat as much as possible - prefering to train only during the coolest parts of the day. These are the people who will find it harder to do well in the heat, should they find it necessary to train or race in it.

But now that we have gotten input from Benji and others on the benefits of heat training, I suppose we could say that it can be considered a training tool after all.

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posted Jun-25-2005 06:52 PM            

I have been contacting athletes who competed last year in Athens to hopefully get them to comment on how they heat trained. In the meantime I've been doing some searching to try to learn some of the strategies that the athletes used for preparing for the heat. We know about the Nike jackets that some of the athletes used to stay cool up until their competition. There are a few of these high tech means for cooling the body.

But there are some old traditional means. One of them is dunking your hands in iced water just before competing. Supposedly it can pull your core temperature down in just a few minutes.

What's interesting is that the benefit is not just for competing. According to the article I read, it can also be used to develop heat tolerance during training.

See: Feeling the heat in Athens? No sweat

If you're interested in learning more about this process, do a search on "Rapid Thermal Exchange" (RTX). I don't know exactly how long (i.e. minutes) before a training run or race you'll want to do this, or the exact procedure. I'll do some searching and try to find out more. If someone already knows, please share it with us. Thanks.

A name you might want to do a search on is Mark Verstegen who is the founder and director of Athletes' Performance, a training facility in Tempe, Ariz. He has a website. Lots of interesting stuff there.

If any of you use this hand-dunking technique tomorrow, or anytime in the near future, let us know how it worked for you.

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posted Jun-25-2005 07:58 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by leon2:
I have been contacting athletes who competed last year in Athens to hopefully get them to comment on how they heat trained.

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[This message has been edited by maryt (edited Jun-25-2005).]

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posted Jun-25-2005 08:11 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by leon2:
But there are some old traditional means [for cooling the body]. One of them is dunking your hands in iced water just before competing. Supposedly it can pull your core temperature down in just a few minutes.

If any of you use this hand-dunking technique tomorrow, or anytime in the near future, let us know how it worked for you.

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I haven't tried the ice water technique on hands, but I had heard a long time ago that cool water on the wrists can help lower body temperature because of the veins very close to the surface there. Cool was supposedly better than ice because too cold would cause vasoconstriction. Anyway, I have tried pouring water on my wrists before races and at water stops in races when the temps have been outrageous - 90s and humid, for example. I don't know if it was partly psychological, but it really did seem to help.

[This message has been edited by maryt (edited Jun-25-2005).]

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posted Jun-26-2005 03:31 AM               

quote:

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Thanks for posting this. I actually gleaned quite a bit of useful information from this. Hopefully we can eventually get Marty and some other elite runners to comment on their heat training, and the benefits they derived from it. I'll ask around.

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You're welcome. Marty's book is great, it's out of print and hard to find, but if you can, I highly recommend it.

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posted Jun-26-2005 05:47 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by maryt:
It's more a mattter of specificity vs taking things to extremes that I wonder about.

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First of all, you use the expression "taking things to extremes". Taking things to extremes would be Paula Radcliffe setting up base camp on K2 to do altitude training.

Training in extra clothing when it's warm might seem extreme to one person, but quite normal to another. And isn't it really a matter of perception? Perhaps it's something you wouldn't do. Many people think that running 26.2 miles is extreme. To others, it's normal. Perception.

But I don't see the need to go overboard and train much hotter and slower than you will race when you have the opportunity to train in cooler conditions that would match your racing more closely.

You say that you have 35 years of running experience. You should know that that is not reality. Runners are not always able to train in the same conditions under which they will be racing. And in many cases they can't even come close. They do the best they can wherever they are, and hope for the best on race day. Someone living in Florida has to prepare for the Boston marathon the best they can. Read Dan's post about Marti Liquori, and how he trained in Florida to race in Europe. That was great information in that post. And with regards to running fast all the time, Benji answered that question for you already. But again, that's something you should know already. Smart runners do not devote 100% of their training miles to speedwork. The Kenyans and Japanese, some of the best marathoners in the world, actually do have recovery days. Read through his post again. ...

quote:

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Originally posted by Benji Durden:
I'm sure there were others who did this as well. The Japanese and Kenyans here in Boulder all train this way on their easy runs.

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If you do have any luck in contacting some of thse athletes, it would be really interesting if you could find out if Deena still trains with extra clothes in the heat, now that she is not planning on running a race in extreme conditions like Athens?

I honestly don't know how Deena trains these days. But I can guess. And we have already gone into this in the "8-year" topic. Deena was not training to run a fast race in Athens. She was training to survive the conditions of heat and humidity. And it was for a race that comes around only once every four years. So she wanted to pull out all the stops, and get everything as near to perfect as possible. The stress of the Olympics is behind her now, and she achieved her goal of winning a medal. There is no need for her to train that way ever again. And I don't imagine that Deena will actually seek to run a marathon in those conditions again. One of her goals is to run under 2:20. So the focus of her training will be much different. She plans to run Chicago this fall. The difference in temperature will likely be 50 degrees cooler than it was in Athens. Maybe she isn't wearing extra layers as she did for Athens. I don't know. Mizuki Noguchi is also planning to run a fall marathon. She is probably not training in the mountains of St. Moritz this year in order to improve her downhill running technique as she did in preparing for Athens. Does it mean that she didn't think the training last year was beneficial? You're the one who mentioned specificity. These runners only trained the way they did because of the conditions they would face in Athens which were quite unique for marathoners. However, it doesn't mean that they didn't benefit from the training if they abandon those methods this year. My guess though is that, if Deena ever does have to run another hot marathon again, the layers will go back on.

[This message has been edited by leon2 (edited Jun-26-2005).]

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posted Jun-26-2005 04:56 PM            

By the way, when it's in the 90s, just 3 days of heat acclimitization doesn't do it, even with the cool water on the wrists - personal observation from today's race.

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