| Author |
Topic: coffee is bad for you |
Biophilia
Cool Runner |
 posted Sep-22-2007 02:53 PM
  
vit C is only good for non-heme iron absorption. It does nothing to help absorption of heme iron which comes from animal sources like meat/fish/poultry. And I know coffee and tea can disrupt the absorption of some nutrients like iron and calcium due to the polyphenols. I don't know what effect caffeine has though. But this is only a problem for people with deficiencies. And in that case it's only a problem if you consume them concurrently with your main sources of these nutrients. For the same reason you should have sources of vit C concurrently with non-heme sources of iron to enhance absorption, if you really need the extra boost.
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Ariann
Cool Runner |
posted Sep-22-2007 09:43 PM
On a related note, I just completed a 25 hour fast and damn, the combination of no sugar, no liquid, and no caffeine led to one killer headache!
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4leafclover
Cool Runner |
posted Sep-22-2007 11:42 PM
there are worse things out there.....much worse
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DavidD
Cool Runner |
posted Sep-23-2007 12:48 PM
Regarding O2, caffeine increases metabolic rate, therefore an increase in oxygen. It can also double the free fatty acids in the blood used for energy, so it not only increases RQ meaning we burn more fat for energy (which also uses oxygen).Heme iron (animal sources) is efficiently absorbed without help from anything, while non-heme iron (non-animal sources) is poorly absorbed and needs help from anything that lowers gut pH (like vitamin C). Disclaimer: I make fresh ground organic light roast (more caffeine than dark roasts) cup of coffee (actually a mug) every morning.
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Biophilia
Cool Runner |
posted Sep-23-2007 01:23 PM
quote:
Originally posted by DavidD:
Regarding O2, caffeine increases metabolic rate, therefore an increase in oxygen. It can also double the free fatty acids in the blood used for energy, so it not only increases RQ meaning we burn more fat for energy (which also uses oxygen).Heme iron (animal sources) is efficiently absorbed without help from anything, while non-heme iron (non-animal sources) is poorly absorbed and needs help from anything that lowers gut pH (like vitamin C). Disclaimer: I make fresh ground organic light roast (more caffeine than dark roasts) cup of coffee (actually a mug) every morning.
metabolizing a higher ratio of fat would decrease the RQ, wouldn't it? heme iron needs lots of help. It is consumed in the form of myoglobin/hemoglobin so it needs the help of stomach acid and entero-enzymes to free it from the globin protein before it can be absorbed. Then the iron needs to be freed from the heme inside the enterocytes and this is done by an enzyme. From there it has the same fate as non-heme iron. But it's still absorbed in this form more efficiently (about 15-35%) than non-heme iron (about 5-15%). vit C doesn't help the absorption of Fe by lowering gut pH. It helps by keeping Fe in the more absorb-able ferrous form. Just to be clear, not all animal sources of iron are in the heme form. More than half of meat can be non-heme. Also, if you cook meat for a long time, the heme-Fe can be degraded and converted to non-heme.
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DavidD
Cool Runner |
posted Sep-23-2007 05:57 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Biophilia:
metabolizing a higher ratio of fat would decrease the RQ, wouldn't it?heme iron needs lots of help. It is consumed in the form of myoglobin/hemoglobin so it needs the help of stomach acid and entero-enzymes to free it from the globin protein before it can be absorbed. Then the iron needs to be freed from the heme inside the enterocytes and this is done by an enzyme. From there it has the same fate as non-heme iron. But it's still absorbed in this form more efficiently (about 15-35%) than non-heme iron (about 5-15%). vit C doesn't help the absorption of Fe by lowering gut pH. It helps by keeping Fe in the more absorb-able ferrous form. Just to be clear, not all animal sources of iron are in the heme form. More than half of meat can be non-heme. Also, if you cook meat for a long time, the heme-Fe can be degraded and converted to non-heme.
Yes, sorry -- a lower RQ as a result of increased fat burning. RQ is derived from CO2/O2, and as oxygen uptake increases the ratio gets smaller. Good job on the heme issue too. Iron is a healthy food nutrient, but can be a dangerous supplement especially when taken with synthetic vitamin C. The risk of creating iron free radicals is very real. I'm not sure if that's where the discussion was going, or it may be a different thread. Let's see, how do we get back to coffee 
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backstretch
Member |
posted Sep-23-2007 09:31 PM
quote:
Originally posted by DavidD:
Regarding O2, caffeine increases metabolic rate, therefore an increase in oxygen.
Not if your blood is carrying less oxygen. Maybe your metabolic rate increases to provide the same amount of oxygen as your system produced without the caffeine. Running slows your system down, your heart doesn't have to work as hard to do the same job. Caffeine indirectly robs your system of Oxygen therefore your heart rate increases to provide the same level. Well it's the theory I agree with anyway. [This message has been edited by backstretch (edited Sep-23-2007).]
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Iontach
Cool Runner |
posted Sep-23-2007 09:52 PM
quote:
Originally posted by backstretch:
Well it's the theory I agree with anyway.
If it exists so that you can agree with it, then someone must have done some work on it. I'd be really interested in seeing some peer-reviewed research on this. Could you point me in the right direction, please?
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backstretch
Member |
posted Sep-23-2007 10:02 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Iontach:
If it exists so that you can agree with it, then someone must have done some work on it. I'd be really interested in seeing some peer-reviewed research on this. Could you point me in the right direction, please?
Maybe I should apply for a grant, I guess it's my theory then...yeah me Like I originally stated I have read where caffeine reduces the bloods ability to absorb Iron. Since Iron carries Oxygen, it means you are getting less oxygen per drop of bolood when you have caffeine in your system. I don't understand why a runner works hard to get his heartrate down to the 40's when at rest and then cranks it up to the fifties or higher with a coffee. Non runners have heart rates in the seventies or more, do they have an advantage? I think not.
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Biophilia
Cool Runner |
posted Sep-23-2007 10:10 PM
quote:
Originally posted by backstretch:
Not if your blood is carrying less oxygen. Maybe your metabolic rate increases to provide the same amount of oxygen as your system produced without the caffeine. Running slows your system down, your heart doesn't have to work as hard to do the same job. Caffeine indirectly robs your system of Oxygen therefore your heart rate increases to provide the same level. Well it's the theory I agree with anyway.[This message has been edited by backstretch (edited Sep-23-2007).]
caffeine is a well documented stimulant. Stimulants are stimulants because they stimulate the sympathetic nervous system in some way, which increases metabolism.
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Biophilia
Cool Runner |
posted Sep-23-2007 10:22 PM
quote:
Originally posted by backstretch:
Maybe I should apply for a grant, I guess it's my theory then...yeah me Like I originally stated I have read where caffeine reduces the bloods ability to absorb Iron. Since Iron carries Oxygen, it means you are getting less oxygen per drop of bolood when you have caffeine in your system. I don't understand why a runner works hard to get his heartrate down to the 40's when at rest and then cranks it up to the fifties or higher with a coffee. Non runners have heart rates in the seventies or more, do they have an advantage? I think not.
it can reduce the gastro-intestinal tract's ability to absorb iron, not the bloods ability. the advantage is more related to being fit (which takes the whole physiological system into account) than a direct reflection of current heart rate. Trained athletes can pump more blood with each pump of the heart so the heart doesn't need to pump as much during rest. Think of a cup of coffee more as minor exercise. [This message has been edited by Biophilia (edited Sep-23-2007).]
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DavidD
Cool Runner |
posted Sep-23-2007 11:21 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Biophilia:
Think of a cup of coffee more as minor exercise. [This message has been edited by Biophilia (edited Sep-23-2007).]
Actually, coffee (caffeine) will do almost what a good warm up will do: increase fatty acids, increase lung capacity, increase circulation, etc.
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backstretch
Member |
posted Sep-24-2007 07:59 AM
quote:
Originally posted by DavidD:
Actually, coffee (caffeine) will do almost what a good warm up will do: increase fatty acids, increase lung capacity, increase circulation, etc.
One Report on Caffeine below I'm sure there are others, but to each his / her own.
http://www.sportsgeezer.com/sportsgeezer/2006/02/coffee_before_e.html
The bad news is that it can restrict blood flow to the heart. Heart blood flow was 22 percent lower in those who exercised in normal air pressure and 39 percent lower in those who exercised in the high-altitude chamber.
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Biophilia
Cool Runner |
posted Sep-24-2007 08:24 AM
quote:
Originally posted by backstretch:
One Report on Caffeine below I'm sure there are others, but to each his / her own.
http://www.sportsgeezer.com/sportsgeezer/2006/02/coffee_before_e.html
The bad news is that it can restrict blood flow to the heart. Heart blood flow was 22 percent lower in those who exercised in normal air pressure and 39 percent lower in those who exercised in the high-altitude chamber.
that's interesting. http://preventdisease.com/news/articles/011706_java.shtml
(same study, more detailed press release) quote:
While some people regard caffeine as a stimulant, this study suggests it may not increase athletic performance."We now have good evidence that, at the level of myocardial blood flow, caffeine is not a useful stimulant. It may be a stimulant at the cerebral level in terms of being more awake and alert, which may subjectively give the feeling of having better physical performance. But I now would not recommend that any athlete drink caffeine before sports," Kaufmann said.
backstretch, no statements you've made back the results of this study. Don't get the wrong idea.
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backstretch
Member |
posted Sep-24-2007 10:12 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Biophilia:
backstretch, no statements you've made back the results of this study. Don't get the wrong idea.
quote:
Originally posted by backstretch:
Coffee is bad for runners in my opinion. ....... Coffee = Bad for runners
Well other than my ORIGINAL statement I guess not since I can only offer an opinion. lol
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DavidD
Cool Runner |
posted Sep-24-2007 02:01 PM
quote:
Originally posted by backstretch:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by DavidD:
[b] Actually, coffee (caffeine) will do almost what a good warm up will do: increase fatty acids, increase lung capacity, increase circulation, etc.
One Report on Caffeine below I'm sure there are others, but to each his / her own. http://www.sportsgeezer.com/sportsgeezer/2006/02/coffee_before_e.html The bad news is that it can restrict blood flow to the heart. Heart blood flow was 22 percent lower in those who exercised in normal air pressure and 39 percent lower in those who exercised in the high-altitude chamber. [/B][/QUOTE] You're reporting on a website that reported on a study that wasn't even published? Not a good way to make your point. There are plenty of studies that could back up your opinion about coffee being bad (not very many using runners as subjects). These would be a better argument. When/if you use these studies, someone will counter with other studies about the benefits of caffeine (using runners). The real answer, then, would be that SOME runners should not drink coffee/caffeine because it's not good for THEIR bodies, and others are not adversely affected by it.
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Biophilia
Cool Runner |
posted Sep-24-2007 02:25 PM
quote:
Originally posted by DavidD:
You're reporting on a website that reported on a study that wasn't even published? Not a good way to make your point. There are plenty of studies that could back up your opinion about coffee being bad (not very many using runners as subjects). These would be a better argument. When/if you use these studies, someone will counter with other studies about the benefits of caffeine (using runners). The real answer, then, would be that SOME runners should not drink coffee/caffeine because it's not good for THEIR bodies, and others are not adversely affected by it.
I'd like to see any good studies that say coffee is bad. That's why I posted this thread. So far it seems it was just a misconception. So if it's not then share the info please. The reason why that study doesn't back his assumption is because it was an assumption. If you make enough assumptions you'll eventually get some right. And that's aside from the fact that his reasoning was all wrong prior to posting the reference. You're "real answer" is just another assumption.
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DavidD
Cool Runner |
posted Sep-24-2007 03:18 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Biophilia:
I'd like to see any good studies that say coffee is bad. That's why I posted this thread. So far it seems it was just a misconception. So if it's not then share the info please. The reason why that study doesn't back his assumption is because it was an assumption. If you make enough assumptions you'll eventually get some right. And that's aside from the fact that his reasoning was all wrong prior to posting the reference. You're "real answer" is just another assumption.
Well, OK. Then our existence is an assumption. But let’s move from philosophy to physiology.
My comments were an attempt at helping ‘backstretch’ communicate better (at least scientifically). We don’t need studies to show coffee can be bad for certain people. We just need to be able to take a good history and understand physiology. I believe that a person who reacts badly to coffee has some imbalance. For example, if you’re already over sympathetic and you feel bad from a cup of coffee, it’s not the coffee, it’s you. (A good history with this type of association provides very helpful information.) Or, if a person doesn’t sleep well when drinking coffee in the late afternoon, that’s a problem. Is coffee inherently bad? It certainly could be. I know a guy who drinks over 10 cups a day. This is probably bad for him. I know another guy who drinks several cups of Sanka a day, with Creamora (or whatever it’s called). I think this is toxic.
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backstretch
Member |
posted Sep-24-2007 03:53 PM
Caffeine depletes the body of B vitamins, which you need for proper brain and nervous system functioning and for converting food to energy, says Michael Murray, N.D., a naturopathic physician in Seattle and author of Chronic Fatigue Syndrome: Getting Well Naturally. To make matters worse, it also prevents iron absorption, says Dr. Murray, which can lead to anemia, a condition in which you have too few oxygen-carrying red blood cells and which is a major contributor to fatigue.
The Complete Book Of Alternative Nutrition by Selene Y Craig, page 389 http://www.newstarget.com/012352.html I will agree, one can find just as many detrimental articles as positive articles about coffee. Well I learned quite a bit thanks all.
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DavidD
Cool Runner |
posted Sep-24-2007 04:01 PM
quote:
Originally posted by backstretch:
Caffeine depletes the body of B vitamins, which you need for proper brain and nervous system functioning and for converting food to energy, says Michael Murray, N.D., a naturopathic physician in Seattle and author of Chronic Fatigue Syndrome: Getting Well Naturally. To make matters worse, it also prevents iron absorption, says Dr. Murray, which can lead to anemia, a condition in which you have too few oxygen-carrying red blood cells and which is a major contributor to fatigue.
The Complete Book Of Alternative Nutrition by Selene Y Craig, page 389 http://www.newstarget.com/012352.html I will agree, one can find just as many detrimental articles as positive articles about coffee. Well I learned quite a bit thanks all.
Caffeine does not deplete the body's B vitamins. More B vitamins are used by the liver to break down caffeine. Caffeine does not prevent iron absorption. It may impair it to some degree in some people some of the time. I did not say we could find as many anti as pro studies on caffeine. But both are out there to be used in any discussion/debate.
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Biophilia
Cool Runner |
posted Sep-24-2007 04:18 PM
quote:
Originally posted by DavidD:
Well, OK. Then our existence is an assumption. But let’s move from philosophy to physiology.My comments were an attempt at helping ‘backstretch’ communicate better (at least scientifically).
there was no science behind your statement, hence the label of "assumption". quote:
Originally posted by DavidD:
We don’t need studies to show coffee can be bad for certain people. We just need to be able to take a good history and understand physiology.
huh? quote:
Originally posted by DavidD:
I believe that a person who reacts badly to coffee has some imbalance. For example, if you’re already over sympathetic and you feel bad from a cup of coffee, it’s not the coffee, it’s you. (A good history with this type of association provides very helpful information.) Or, if a person doesn’t sleep well when drinking coffee in the late afternoon, that’s a problem.Is coffee inherently bad? It certainly could be. I know a guy who drinks over 10 cups a day. This is probably bad for him. I know another guy who drinks several cups of Sanka a day, with Creamora (or whatever it’s called). I think this is toxic.
you're mixing unsubstantiated beliefs with theory. I don't know the purpose of these paragraphs. quote:
Originally posted by backstretch:
Caffeine depletes the body of B vitamins, which you need for proper brain and nervous system functioning and for converting food to energy, says Michael Murray, N.D., a naturopathic physician in Seattle and author of Chronic Fatigue Syndrome: Getting Well Naturally. To make matters worse, it also prevents iron absorption, says Dr. Murray, which can lead to anemia, a condition in which you have too few oxygen-carrying red blood cells and which is a major contributor to fatigue.
The Complete Book Of Alternative Nutrition by Selene Y Craig, page 389 http://www.newstarget.com/012352.html I will agree, one can find just as many detrimental articles as positive articles about coffee. Well I learned quite a bit thanks all.
all (including the link) either unbacked statements or false allusions. Yes, caffeine can inhibit iron absorption and anemia is bad but neither make caffeine bad. Many whole grains contain phytate and can also bind iron in the gut and prevent absorption. This doesn't mean you shouldn't eat whole grains. when searching for supported science be weary of "naturopathy".
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PB2
Cool Runner |
posted Sep-24-2007 07:35 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Biophilia:
all (including the link) either unbacked statements or false allusions. Yes, caffeine can inhibit iron absorption and anemia is bad but neither make caffeine bad. Many whole grains contain phytate and can also bind iron in the gut and prevent absorption. This doesn't mean you shouldn't eat whole grains. when searching for supported science be weary of "naturopathy".
i liked the discussion when it was a real discussion
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dg12
Cool Runner |
posted Sep-26-2007 02:20 PM
Coffee is bad for you, not me.
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