| Author |
Topic: Too Soon for a Boston Marathon thread? |
gmaclin
Member |
 posted Mar-10-2007 06:58 PM
  
quote:
Originally posted by perchcreek:
Good MorningI found this interesting spreadsheet that will customize a Boston paceband and has mile-by-mile route descriptions. What do you think? http://www.box.net/public/75o3rqgty9 Steve
Steve - I'm the one who created that spreadsheet and this afternoon I uploaded a new version that is available at the same link: http://www.box.net/public/75o3rqgty9 I have revised some of the information on various pages, but the main difference is the pacing. Based on input from a number of people, I have "tweaked" some of the pacing factors and you now have the option of selecting 1 of 5 pacing strategies: 1 = Even effort
2 = More even pace than #1
3 = More even pace than #2
4 = Even pace
5 = Custom (you can modifiy the pace factors yourself) Greg
[This message has been edited by gmaclin (edited Mar-10-2007).]
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perchcreek
Cool Runner |
posted Mar-10-2007 09:41 PM
Thanks Greg... I should have looked at all the prior posts (shame on me) I see this has already been shared. Great work.Steve
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rtravers
Cool Runner |
posted Mar-11-2007 02:37 PM
Another confidence-builder out on the course today. I consider myself so fortunate to live so close to the route, and I wonder why it has taken me so long to get out there and train on it!I parked at mile 21, right in front of Boston College, in Chestnut Hill. Then I ran backwards on the course for 10.5 miles, through Newton and Wellesley and on to Natick, where I turned around and headed back. The beauty of this is that for the last half of my run, I hit all of the landmarks (most notably, the Newton Hills) at mileage-appropriate points. It worked perfectly...I hit the first hill at exactly the mileage (16.5 miles) where I will hit it during the actual marathon! It felt terrific! I chuckled when I ran past Newton-Wellesley Hospital...they had a sign as you approached it, saying, "Good luck, marathoners, on Patriot's Day!". And then, as you passed the hospital, there was another sign saying, "Don't forget to sign up for the FREE post-marathon injury assessment clinic!" Real confidence-builder, that! The Newton Hills are long, but they are do-able. I'm really glad to be able to get some experience here so that I can pace myself appropriately. They are not as terrible as some stories might suggest. I loved the camaraderie of the runners out on the course today. It was a gorgeous, sunshiny 45 degree day, perfect weather for running, and everyone was out in droves. It's been so long since we've had beautiful weather like this. As I stretched out at my car after my run, a fellow ran past me and said, "Did you get all your miles in?" When I said, "Yeah!", he replied, "Way to go!" and kept on his way. I've been running so long alone, in the dark and the cold winter, that it was such a joy to share this with someone else, even if it was just for 5 seconds in passing on the route. It sounds silly, but it made my day! 21.23 miles in 3:20:21 (9:26 pace) --Robin
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bhearn
Cool Runner |
posted Mar-11-2007 03:13 PM
One more hills post... this image seems to sum it all up the best:  Note that the first and the last hills are about 100 ft, not 60-80 as somebody mentioned earlier. The first hill is "hell's alley", which is the I-95 overpass. Basically this is where the race really starts! All the fun, feel-good part is behind you now. This goes on for far too long, and is particularly nasty when there's a headwind. The other hills are all on Commonwealth Ave.; the second one starts just as you round the corner at the fire station. The last one is Heartbreak. Maybe this year, for once, I can find some way to avoid cramping up by the time I get to the top... Bob
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paulmitch
Cool Runner |
posted Mar-11-2007 08:08 PM
OMG
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gmaclin
Member |
posted Mar-11-2007 09:08 PM
quote:
Originally posted by bhearn:
Note that the first and the last hills are about 100 ft, not 60-80 as somebody mentioned earlier.The first hill is "hell's alley", which is the I-95 overpass. Basically this is where the race really starts! All the fun, feel-good part is behind you now. This goes on for far too long, and is particularly nasty when there's a headwind. The other hills are all on Commonwealth Ave.; the second one starts just as you round the corner at the fire station. The last one is Heartbreak. Maybe this year, for once, I can find some way to avoid cramping up by the time I get to the top... Bob
Not to be nit-picky, but the problem with using maping software like Topo USA, Google Earth, etc. to get altitude information along highways is that none of them take into account modifications made to the terrain so the road could be built (bridges, cuts, etc.). For example, at Newton Lower Falls, the topo map above does not take into account that you are crossing a bridge that probably puts you 10-20 feet above the river. When they build highways, they try and minimize the peaks and valleys in the road, so diagrams like the one above can sometimes be a little misleading. The bottom line is that the Newton hills are not really that bad by themselves, it's just their location on the course that makes them more of a challenge. Greg
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bhearn
Cool Runner |
posted Mar-12-2007 09:40 AM
quote:
Originally posted by gmaclin:
Not to be nit-picky, but the problem with using maping software like Topo USA, Google Earth, etc. to get altitude information along highways is that none of them take into account modifications made to the terrain so the road could be built (bridges, cuts, etc.). For example, at Newton Lower Falls, the topo map above does not take into account that you are crossing a bridge that probably puts you 10-20 feet above the river. When they build highways, they try and minimize the peaks and valleys in the road, so diagrams like the one above can sometimes be a little misleading.The bottom line is that the Newton hills are not really that bad by themselves, it's just their location on the course that makes them more of a challenge. Greg
Well, that's a good point. But looking at Newton Lower Falls on google maps ( http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=newton,+ma&layer=&ie=UTF8&z=16&ll=42.327577,-71.25196&spn=0.010502,0.02871&t=h&om=1 ), it doesn't look like you are actually crossing the river when you begin over the overpass, which is where the grade starts. The bridge is some ways earlier, when (I think) you are still heading downhill. But I don't recall whether there is another bridge there at the start of the grade. Also, in general, I'd take a topo map over a watch altimeter. You said Polar; is that a barometric measurement? I know the elevation on my Foreruner 305 (GPS) is often off by 100 feet or more. But I agree with you that the hills are not so bad by themselves. If you've done them in training - deceptively not so bad! Bob
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perchcreek
Cool Runner |
posted Mar-12-2007 03:35 PM
As far as those Newton hills elevations, they match well with what Robin and I posted. I remember first impressions when I ran those hills in training. I was expecting to face a big hill and think, whoa, I gotta climb that? But instead it was, ok we're going up gently, where's the big hill, still climbing, where is it? Oh, we're at the top. That's what it's like without the prior 17 miles  I'll let you know my impressions AFTER April 16th!Do you guys hit LT HR level going up the biggest hills? If I run a flat race at 158 bpm (83%MHR) (way below LT for me), on hilly MP training runs I might be 145-150 down hills and 166-170 (87-89%MHR) going up. Would this be reasonable for Boston or should I keep it lower on the ups? Steve ------------------
My Profile Training
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gmaclin
Member |
posted Mar-12-2007 05:04 PM
quote:
Originally posted by bhearn:
...it doesn't look like you are actually crossing the river when you begin over the overpass, which is where the grade starts. The bridge is some ways earlier, when (I think) you are still heading downhill. But I don't recall whether there is another bridge there at the start of the grade. Also, in general, I'd take a topo map over a watch altimeter. You said Polar; is that a barometric measurement? I know the elevation on my Foreruner 305 (GPS) is often off by 100 feet or more.But I agree with you that the hills are not so bad by themselves. If you've done them in training - deceptively not so bad! Bob
Bob: The bridge over the Charles River is at the bottom of the hill. As soon as you cross it, a gradual uphill starts, then over the freeway, then uphill again to the "Y" just before the hospital. My Polar (S625X) has an altimeter based on barometric pressure, which of course can be susceptible to changes in weather, but I don't care what my actual altitude is, I just want to know how big the hills are. (I'm confident that weather has very little effect on the relative altitudes it measures at points within a mile and within 5 minutes of each other). Anyway, as you said, I think the hills on the Boston course are really not that bad. You just need to train properly for a lot of gradual downhill running and be very careful how you pace yourself in the first 16 miles. Greg
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dhuey
Cool Runner |
posted Mar-12-2007 05:08 PM
Whatever is to be said of those hills, I've seen from a number of sources that Boston times are generally faster than New York times. I guess a lot of it is subjective. I live in the Berkeley hills, so the idea of a few 80-100 feet hills doesn't ring any alarm bells with me, even toward the end of a race.
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ljwoodw
Cool Runner |
posted Mar-12-2007 07:09 PM
quote:
Originally posted by perchcreek:
As far as those Newton hills elevations, they match well with what Robin and I posted. I remember first impressions when I ran those hills in training. I was expecting to face a big hill and think, whoa, I gotta climb that? But instead it was, ok we're going up gently, where's the big hill, still climbing, where is it? Oh, we're at the top. That's what it's like without the prior 17 miles I'll let you know my impressions AFTER April 16th!Do you guys hit LT HR level going up the biggest hills? If I run a flat race at 158 bpm (83%MHR) (way below LT for me), on hilly MP training runs I might be 145-150 down hills and 166-170 (87-89%MHR) going up. Would this be reasonable for Boston or should I keep it lower on the ups? Steve
Actually, if you're well-trained and unfamiliar with the course, you might not even realize that you're going up heartbreak hill. It just really doesn't make that much of an impression on you. In my first Boston, I remember seeing the house that marks the top of Heartbreak Hill (and thinking, oh, well I've done it, then!) but don't remember actually climbing it. Edits:
I don't know a thing about HR training. And Boston times might be faster because it generally attracts higher-calibre athletes than New York. [This message has been edited by ljwoodw (edited Mar-12-2007).]
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bhearn
Cool Runner |
posted Mar-12-2007 09:16 PM
quote:
Originally posted by gmaclin:
The bridge over the Charles River is at the bottom of the hill. As soon as you cross it, a gradual uphill starts, then over the freeway, then uphill again to the "Y" just before the hospital.
Ah, my mistake, then. I remembered the hill starting later. quote:
Originally posted by ljwoodw:
Actually, if you're well-trained and unfamiliar with the course, you might not even realize that you're going up heartbreak hill. It just really doesn't make that much of an impression on you.
Speak for yourself!  My first year I wound up spending 10 minutes in the med tent at the top of Heartbreak. And I was well trained. (Just rather stupid about ignoring the weather.) Bob
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dhuey
Cool Runner |
posted Mar-12-2007 09:43 PM
quote:
...And Boston times might be faster because it generally attracts higher-calibre athletes than New York.
...
To clarify, these sources claimed that Boston was generally faster than New York for runners who ran both marathons. None of these sources seemed very authoritative, but there were several of them, and they all said the same thing. I haven't seen anyone claim that New York is a faster course than Boston.
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dhuey
Cool Runner |
posted Mar-12-2007 09:56 PM
Actually, this site does seem pretty authoritative. http://www.arrs.net/TB_Mara.htm Note the 40 second faster bias of Boston vs. NYC.
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ljwoodw
Cool Runner |
posted Mar-12-2007 10:07 PM
Interesting link...noticed something a bit surprising...why do the men run slower at Boston (+7.2) and the women run faster? (-14.4)
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thereshegoes
Cool Runner |
posted Mar-13-2007 07:20 AM
That link is interesting. Is the "expected time" what the runner expected to run or something else? If it is what the runner expected I would say that the bias would be thrown off by the experience level of the runners in the race. For example, I ran the Columbus marathon last fall. It is not a hard course and generally has really good weather. Yet, it's bias is +74? Boston is a notorious course and generally has a reputation for being slower. Maybe there's something in the psychology of experienced women marathoners that causes them to take a cautious approach to Boston, where male experienced marathoners are less cautious? Ok, I've thought way too much about this! But it's interesting for sure!
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perchcreek
Cool Runner |
posted Mar-13-2007 09:53 AM
It's gotta be the combo of down hill start and fast competitive runners. I don't know how positive the splits should be at Boston,but if I look at or CR Boomers from last year, the splits were like this: (there was no correlation to finish time except the biggest positive split)+ 6 min, +2 min, +13min, even, +6 min, +10min, +6min, +7min, +15 min, +3 min, +7 min, +9min, +9min, +27min (ouch),+10min. My theory is runners still go out too fast!
How positive should Boston be for say a 3:00 and a 3:30 runner? Steve
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PacerChris
Cool Runner |
posted Mar-13-2007 10:10 AM
I ran a 27 second positive split last year and felt like I had nothing at the end...but I do feel like I could have gone a little faster in the first half without sacrificing anything in the second. My goal for this year is to go through the half about 1:24 and hope for a 1:25 or 1:26 for the second half...that's only a little faster than last year for the second half, but a good 2:30 faster for the first.For a 3-3:30 runner like me, I'd say 1, perhaps 2 minute positive split is good - anything faster and you're risking a crash, and I wouldn't feel too good about my race if I ran a 5 minute positive split (that's just me though). 1-2 minutes is aggressive but not foolhardy - over the 4 hills of Heartbreak you could give up 15-20 seconds per mile and still be on your goal time pace if you can keep it rolling after mile 21.
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RocketPack
Cool Runner |
posted Mar-13-2007 11:32 AM
Great thread, lots of good information, thanks everyone.Any idea when we'll find out numbers, corrals, and waves? I've read that the wave cutoff should be around 3:30, which puts me in the final corral of the first wave. I was kind of hoping to go out in the 2nd wave, first group. That way I could pretend I was leading the Boston Marathon! 
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crunningman
Cool Runner |
posted Mar-13-2007 11:33 AM
quote:
Originally posted by perchcreek:
It's gotta be the combo of down hill start and fast competitive runners.
My theory is runners still go out too fast!
[b]How positive should Boston be for say a 3:00 and a 3:30 runner?Steve[/B]
Negative is possible, but in my opinion you really have to real it in during the first 3-4 miles. That downhill start takes alot of people by surprise I'm sure. It does me anyway, every time I run it. I ran my best Boston time in 2006 (3:11)
1st Half - 1:25ish
2nd Half - 1:45ish
The thing is I knew I was going to crash just by my first half result even though I ran darn near even 5k splits. I'll use this as an example: Although The Pig is no Boston, it still has some good hills, but they are on the first half of the course. Ran negatives in 2005(1:35:25/1:30:48) & 2006(1:36:06/1:31:47). Started out slowly with either the 3:20 or 3:30 pace groups and slowly picked up the pace. Too bad Boston wasn't switched around. I think each year I ended up catching "PacerChris" and his 3:10/pace group. That was definitely a confidence booster late in the race. At Boston, especially when you are starting out in the 1st corral it is quite hard to just hold back when you have a 1,000 other runners around you, competitive runners, doing the same thing. Maybe this year will be different for me. Of course it will My Profile
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RocketPack
Cool Runner |
posted Mar-13-2007 11:34 AM
Great thread, lots of good information, thanks everyone.Any idea when we'll find out numbers, corrals, and waves? I've read that the wave cutoff should be around 3:30, which puts me in the final corral of the first wave. I was kind of hoping to go out in the 2nd wave, first group. That way I could pretend I was leading the Boston Marathon!
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perchcreek
Cool Runner |
posted Mar-13-2007 03:18 PM
If Ican reel it in enough on the first half is there enough room (crowded street wise) to pass runners (who went out too fast) in the second half? In other words is it wall to wall runners or is there space?
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LeftRightRepeat
Cool Runner |
posted Mar-14-2007 11:12 AM
quote:
Originally posted by perchcreek:
If Ican reel it in enough on the first half is there enough room (crowded street wise) to pass runners (who went out too fast) in the second half? In other words is it wall to wall runners or is there space?
The first mile or two can be a bit congested - though the pace seeding into the corrals works amazingly well. After that, you'll be able to pass at will.
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->>> John <<<-
Go write something in the Newbie Wiki!!
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crunningman
Cool Runner |
posted Mar-14-2007 11:40 AM
Awesome! Just found out that I'll get to split a room with another runner that is very close to the bus pickup and Boston Common. Like 2 blocks close . I reserved another hotel farther away, but this news is just great.To make a long story short, I originally booked this same room around November 2006. Then decided I wouldn't be doing Boston again this year. Then our local running store owner asked me if I was running Boston again? I said no, but booked a room just in case. He said he new of another local runner looking for a room. So, I did the noble thing of giving this runner the room, it being his first Boston and not knowing the area. Well, we talked this morning and it's set. Real happy I won't be spending $300/night on a room this time around.
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lstall
Cool Runner |
posted Mar-15-2007 07:22 AM
Here's an aerial movie of the course:http://wbztv.com/video/?id=17735@wbz.dayport.com
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- Larry -
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