posted Nov-29-2006 12:08 AM               

My long run yesterday was to be the second progression long run I attempted in this buildup. A while back I did one of 15 miles, this time I was putting in 21.2 miles. I ran the same 21.2 last week on a steady long run. After that run, I put in two 7 mile days and an 11 mile day, and was pretty tired. So I took two days off, then Sunday evening ran some to kick out the cobwebs. But again, a bit sluggish. Left Monday on my 21.2 progression long run and felt a bit slow again. Hmmm. To make things interesting, we had just had a warm east wind arrive Friday, along with a bit of snow, followed by rain. Sunday evening it wasn't too bad, but Monday I didn't get very far down the road and realized it was really slick in places. The roads were covered with ice, some of which had little bits of gravel poking up through (all but 0.6 miles of the route I run is off of paved roads...), but mostly it was pretty slick.

I was feeling a bit sluggish and weaving back and forth across the road to evaluate slickness of various areas, all while trying to plan where I was going to run in order to be able to run fast safely. When I encounter a spot that is really slick, I get into a foot-scootching shuffle that isn't compatible with speeds faster than 10 minute miles. Spent the first 14 miles explaining to myself why it didn't matter if I backed off and did a slow run the whole way. After all, after last week's run I was very sore the next morning and had a pretty bad 2 mile morning commute. Maybe I'm just not ready right now?

Despite all these musings and excuses, about 7 miles from home I found myself moving a bit faster than normal. In fact, I looked down and thought the ground was moving pretty fast (for me...but I'm no spinach...). I clocked a split time at mile 15.7 and kept track of the splits from there on in. I was covering ground at about 9 minute miles, and having some serious concerns about whether it was sustainable.

My breath kept turning into the one stride in, two strides out rythm that usually indicates I'm on the ragged edge. My calves kept sending little miniature potential cramp messages my way, hamstrings did the same thing a couple of times, and my feet got into the act with a complaint that amounted to a threat of plantar fascia pain. In the middle of all this, I kept finding that the stretch of road wasn't quite as bad as I remembered, but there were places where I would have to slow way down to cross from one good traction lead to another over a sheer icefield.

Despite all these system complaints, I kept up the pace until 1.75 miles out, and then made a hard effort to push it in. I was pretty sure I wouldn't have any ability to push it any harder, but I was equally determined that I was not going to do less than I could. I dug down deep, found some better traction areas than when I had been on my way out, and flew (actually, what do you call it when you are running really fast but feel like everything isn't working right, so while you might normally call such speeds 'flying' you really should refer to the way it felt as 'shambling at a catastrophically fast pace'?) the last 1.75 miles, incorporating a couple more slow patches at 8:23 pace, shocking myself.

I was pretty wiped last night, but today was better than the day after from the slow run last week. Go figure.

So what have I learned?
1. Khalid Khannouchi said he feared these runs more than the actual races. I understand this now. I'm not sure I can talk myself into the next one in three weeks. We'll see.
2. These are supposed to help by training the body to deal with running fast when tired. I certainly have to admit that it is a huge mental boost to have successfully pushed the last miles at putative marathon pace and faster. On the other hand, it makes marathon pace seem really hard...which I suppose it is supposed to be. Still trying to wrap my head around the potential effort I'm aiming for. Always before I just ran to finish. Having a real training based time goal is much more daunting.
3. I have no idea how prepared I am for my actual time goal. Khalid (notice we're on a first name basis...as if we'd ever met...) finishes his runs at faster than his marathon pace, in fact he runs the final mile on the track and can hit 4:20. I can't quite match that pace (for 400 meters even...) but I did succeed in running faster than 9 minute pace at the end. On the other hand, it just doesn't seem like that necessarily translates to holding 9 minute pace without hitting glycogen depletion. I guess I'll see.
4. The watered down version of these progression long runs for midpackers doesn't even talk about getting below marathon pace. If I really want to train myself to run fast at the end of a long run, I want to know I can dig deeper than just my long pace, so I've been mimicking more the outline of the elite workout. Not sure that is wise for somebody so far from elite...

And finally, here's hoping I can stay healthy. I'm thinking next week is going to be a mid-training easy week to recoup energy and store up for more ahead.

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Troy

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posted Nov-29-2006 09:37 AM               

Troy~Sounds like you have a really good plan going. Since I'm a first-timer, I'm not worried about the times but I guess I will have to be eventually if I'm going to do more marathons! It definitely sounds like you deserve a little bit of an easier week...that's what my own running group did last week but now we're hitting it hard again this week. 18 miles this Saturday and I'm a little bit scared but I know that I can do it!!

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posted Nov-29-2006 10:18 AM            

Congrats on reaching your fundraising goal. Even following your progress thru this thread, I still don't know how you did it. It's quite an accomplishment.

To answer your question of me, I live in Scottsdale. I feel like I run all over the East Valley or wherever they are having a race.

Hope to see you (and all the rest of you!) around,
Billy

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posted Nov-30-2006 11:10 AM               

I'm thinkin g of doing the Desert Classic too, Billy. Not as a marathon, but trying to put together a relay team & need to find three more runners. Feb. 2nd. is just too close to atempt another 26.2.

The weather has really cooled down here last couple of days . The low was 28 degrees this morning w/ a high of only 53! I know for you Northerners that would seem pretty warm. It would be great to have these temps. on Race Day.

I know what you mean Spinach about non-runners...Even though I prefer to run in the afternoon, I purposely get up very early & run before my wife gets out of bed.

That is awesome Eryn of meeting/exceeding your goal! So you want to take 3.333 minutes off per mile? The problem I can see is having a gust of wind come up & blowing you off the road like a leaf

It sounds like you have the "hay in the barn" Troy, you just have to stack it. Also, don't forget about the "Runners Paradox." Running is both a science and an art.

Tom

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posted Nov-30-2006 05:21 PM               

As far as me running the half, I am 99% sure I wont be running it. I ran an 8k on Thanksgiving day and while I was running I decided that I should concentrate on training for the Flying Pig in May. Although several of my friends are running the half so I may still wind up doing it, it might just be a expo time decision.

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posted Nov-30-2006 10:28 PM               

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posted Nov-30-2006 11:10 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by eryn23:
Frankie~ I am thinking of doing the Flying Pig also! I've heard it's really fun and I live in Louisville, so it's a very short drive for me. Have you ever done it before? I think if I do it at all I may only do half.

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Eryn No I have never done the Pig before. Quite a few of my fellow 30 Somethings are running either the full or the half. I also heard alot of people from across Cool Running are talking about running it and having a huge CR get together. I myself am running the half at the Pig. No fulls for me for a long while.

[This message has been edited by frankie71 (edited Dec-01-2006).]

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posted Dec-01-2006 10:08 AM               

Being the skeptic that I can sometimes be, had to get back in my car & drive the loop again & make sure the distance was correct. Give or take 1/10th of a mile, the distance was confirmed.

The only thing that explains this (from my perspective) is alternating high & low weeks thus resulting in experiencing a "mini" taper every other week. Two weeks ago I ran 34 miles. Last week I ran only 20 miles. Come Tuesday, I was bouncing off the walls! Had so much energy I was ready to bust.

Now, more than ever, am convinced that the last long run @ 4 weeks out w/ a 3 week tapers is just too long. I am now seriously considering running my last long run just 14 days before the race.

Tom

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posted Dec-01-2006 10:20 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by tommy14277:

The only thing that explains this (from my perspective) is alternating high & low weeks thus resulting in experiencing a "mini" taper every other week. Two weeks ago I ran 34 miles. Last week I ran only 20 miles. Come Tuesday, I was bouncing off the walls! Had so much energy I was ready to bust.

Now, more than ever, am convinced that the last long run @ 4 weeks out w/ a 3 week tapers is just too long. I am now seriously considering running my last long run just 14 days before the race.

Tom

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Tom,

This is what I do. I have a three week cycle in my training, where I have long week followed by two shorter weeks. The week after long run I will do a shorter hard week, where I want to get in a couple runs at half marathon or marathon race pace or so, then the next week will have the same number of miles but will be at an easier pace. My last long run will be two weeks before the marathon.

I saw my name on the preferred start list on the web site this morning. So I am glad that nothing went wrong there. This seems to indicate that I will be able to get a good start position. I am trying to be confident.

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posted Dec-01-2006 12:05 PM            

Tom ...Sounds like the training is going well. Keep up the good work. Represent the QC well (I'm counting you as a QC runner b/c I'd bet a lot of your training runs are in QC...At least a portion of them).

Troy ...I love reading your training stories...They are great. I thought of you this morning when it was in the low 30's and I can't imagine how you do it.

Eryn ...Congratulations!!! That's awesome!! I'm sure it's a big relief now that you can just focus on your training these last few weeks.

Frankie ....Come on....You know you want to run it. If you're going to make the decision at the expo, aren't you pretty sure what that decision is already? I'm just messing with you...Run the Flying Pig if you'd rather....Where is it?

Good luck everyone!! 6 weeks from Sunday!! Stay healthy!

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Matt
azredbirds

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posted Dec-01-2006 04:49 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by azredbirds:
Well, I decided to post again. I've been going to PT, and I ran a couple of times this week (including 2.5 miles this morning), so felt that I'd earned the right to post on a running website again. I've got 4 on tap for Sunday, provided the knee holds up. As far as a training plan goes, I'm not sure....Any advice? If 4 goes okay, do I try 6 the next Sunday? I'd like to get as long a run as possible in a couple of weeks before the 1/2 marathon, but don't want to really hurt myself in the process either. I'd like to be able to run as much of the race as possible, but even if I have to walk 12.9 miles of it, I'm totally there.

[b] Frankie ....Come on....You know you want to run it. If you're going to make the decision at the expo, aren't you pretty sure what that decision is already? I'm just messing with you...Run the Flying Pig if you'd rather....Where is it?

Good luck everyone!! 6 weeks from Sunday!! Stay healthy!

[/B]

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Matt

Glad to see you are back to running. I know all about injuries and setbacks with injuries. Hopefully your recovery will go smoothly. You are probably right, I will most likely run it. Im just procrastinating. Even my wife says you know your going to run it, what are you waiting for. My fear is that if I get hurt running PF Changs that I may or may not be recovered in time for the Flying Pig which I already paid for. The Flying Pig is in Cincinnati, OH. It sounds like a lot of fun plus quite a few of the 30s will be there ( like 12-15 ) Im looking foward to meeting them.

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posted Dec-02-2006 12:27 AM               

Erin

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posted Dec-02-2006 03:37 AM               

And if I had to pick perfect running weather, it would probably involve temperatures in the mid-30s with sun out in spring. In winter, I prefer low-20s because that way the snow/ice/frost doesn't melt and the traction stays good.

Time to sleep now...ran over 50 miles this week all told, not sure if I'll run tomorrow or not...I feel great and the type-A personality in me would like to go out for another of my 11 mile tempo runs, but I'm not clear on the wisdom of that. Probably going to take the weekend off to just give all the systems a break whether they need it or not. Then back at it Monday.

Happy runs everyone...

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Troy

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posted Dec-02-2006 06:19 AM               

1. 2, 2, 6 (week ending 12/10)
2. 2, 4, 6
3. 2, 4, 8
4. 2, 2, 10
5. 2, 4, 12
6. 2, 2, RACE

Also, I would suggest always allow @ least (1) day off between runs. Again, Matt, this is only a suggestion. If you think this is too aggressive, please don't attempt this. Good luck!

Tom

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posted Dec-02-2006 12:46 PM               

spinach: nice to see you'll be there; maybe we can meet. i'm hoping to run my first sub-3, but in the past two years i've made 3 efforts (the first one at rocknroll 2005) and bonked at 2 hours. i've been using gels in training now every 6 miles since my bonk in hartford, hopefully gels are the answer i've been seeking.

hmm, made hotel reservations... maybe i should actually enter the race soon?

nail your training! best wishes,
mc

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mcsolar99
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posted Dec-02-2006 01:15 PM               

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Troy

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posted Dec-02-2006 01:41 PM            

Today I ran a 5k, a cold 5k with single digit temperatures and a good breeze, and got my best time in almost 30 years, 18:09. Tomorrow I plan to do 21 miles. I wish we had a half marathon up north this month.

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posted Dec-02-2006 02:11 PM            

Between you and Spinach, one (or both) of you is going to finish the Marathon before I finish the half....lol....Too funny.

Tom ...Thanks for your input...My only concern is having that large a percentage of my weekly miles tied up in the long run....I guess that's better than having longer weekday runs just to keep the percentages more consistent...Run the shorter runs just to keep the kinks out and the longer ones build endurance....Makes sense.

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Matt
azredbirds

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posted Dec-02-2006 10:46 PM               

Spinach~Congrats on your 5k time, you rock!

Did my first 18-miler today and I have to say that I am very proud of myself for pulling it off. Kept up a good pace the entire time(for me-10mm) and finished feeling good. Only problem I had was that at one point I stepped on a twig and kind of twisted my foot. Didn't hurt too bad, kept going despite noticing more pain later on. By the time I finished and got home there was a bruise on the outside of my foot, fairly large! Any idea what I may have done and how I should deal with it?

Guess what else happened today? I realized that I couldn't find my wallet and then when I called the bank to check the balance in my checking it was in the negative by over $80...just yesterday there was over $500 in there. Anyway, wallet got stolen and the bank is going to get me back the money but I had to borrow some money from my parents to pay rent b/c that was all the money I had. I don't know what I'm going to do because they got my checkbook, had all kinds of stuff in it like social security card, license, school id, tons of stuff, I can't even remember what. Can you feel the holiday spirit?

Thanks for reading my rant guys, I tried to keep it short. Happy running and talk to you soon!

Erin

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posted Dec-02-2006 11:36 PM               

Great job on the run. If you are doing 18 miles at 10 minute pace, you are in great form! That's really good news. Not sure what the foot bruise might be, but I would definitely take some anti-inflammatories (like advil) and ice it immediately. Don't mess around with injuries like that...

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Troy

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posted Dec-03-2006 06:17 AM               

I'm sure sorry to hear about your wallet, Eryn. The money is one thing, but replacing all the other stuff can be a real hassle. Someone once stole my wifes purse & wrote over $3K worth of checks!

I'm running thehalf in Tucson PC too. Good luck!

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posted Dec-05-2006 01:42 PM               

How's everyone else doing? Getting some good runs in this week I hope?

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posted Dec-06-2006 07:37 AM               

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posted Dec-06-2006 01:07 PM            

Tom...23 miles? Wow....Is that your longest training run? My buddy is only running 22 for his longest.

I ran 3 this morning....Huffed and puffed the whole way basically (taking a month off sucks)...Knee was "ok", but I can tell it's not perfect. I'm running 3 on Friday and 6 on Sunday. I switched to your 3 day per week plan Tom, though I'm running a few more miles than you suggested. If my knee starts acting up more, I'll drop down in miles.

Anybody have any good ideas about how to walk 13.1 miles in under 4 hours? LOL...I hope it doesn't come to that.

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Matt
azredbirds

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posted Dec-06-2006 03:02 PM               

I'm glad your knee is at least feeling better. Some of the people in my running group do a thing where they run/walk...have you thought about that? Maybe run 5 min then walk for 1. Or you could maybe run a mile then walk for 1 or 2 min. Not sure how you feel about that but it might be worth a shot!

We are only training up to 20...that will be this Sat and I am nervous!! I know I can do it though, we are actually doing a pretty flat run too so it shouldn't be too bad.

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