posted Sep-29-2007 11:46 AM            

Good luck and have fun tomorrow. No point in getting hurt this close to your big event.

IP: Logged

posted Sep-29-2007 02:19 PM            

Hi ya runner gurus and crones, would love some advice.

I have a HM on Oct 14th. and I want to get the best out of my last long w/out tomorrow. Am sort of between two coaches and one has had me in cautious 'avoiding injury' mode for the last 6 mos and the other is pushing me to perform beyond my comfort zone. . . . neither are necessarily bad, but I am unsure which is best at this stage of my training.

• Stats and data
female, 42, running and racing for 12 years.
lifetime HM PB 1:31 Master PB 1:35 flat ('06)
injured before Chicago M last year - did not race.

Current training
This past week:
112 km (70 miles) week
3 key work outs
• 1 medium LR with tempo inserts
• Speed work 2 x 25 mins @ tempo w/ 5min recovery (ave 7:11/mile)
• 1 LR 22kms
And herein lies the question. . .
Tomorrow's schedule calls for a steady pace LR
(assigned 5:05/km 8:09/mile) but I actually do these at 4:50/km 7:55/mile.
I don't know what I'll get out of this, but how far can I push this down without crossing over into detriment? I want a work out that will do more than just get me to the start line ready to match 1:35 or 1:36.

Is a wave run the better way to go?

1.5k @ HM pace then 1.5k recovery @ steady pace x 5
(I think I'm leaning here)

or do I split it into thirds and do a progression run
starting at steady pace > then HM pace > to 10km pace?

or do I warm up 10 mins and then go goal HM pace for 16 km and then cool down 10 mins? (This seems extreme and worries me somewhat - well - - - categorically worries me actually)

your thoughts appreciated.
Cheers
Egret

IP: Logged

posted Sep-29-2007 03:18 PM               

To be honest I’m not very convinced about your lack of finishing speed. Of course you aren’t going to be as quick at 50 as you were at 30, but your mile times say that you are still pretty quick. You’d probably be finishing faster if your aerobic capacity was stronger. This is not to say that isn’t strong already, but I would think you could improve it with more mileage, even if it lot of it is at 8-min pace. I don’t say that it would necessarily work for everyone, but because of the way you’ve run in longer races on limited mileage, I believe that in your case it would. Just for sake of discussion—of course I can’t really know for sure.

P.S. I've always been very anal about distances too, and it's gotten even worse as I've gotten older. I'll rarely even run a serious race on a non-certified course. On several occasions I've emailed race directors to find out how they measured their course when there was no mention on flier. I've even went so far as riding 5 miles around a track to calibrate the odometer--early in the morning before anyone was there. Then I'd measure my routes and mark them with spray paint (small markers as not to deface the road...too much ) How can we know how fast we've run if we don't know how far we've run?

[This message has been edited by Jim24315 (edited Sep-29-2007).]

IP: Logged

posted Sep-29-2007 03:29 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by egrd:
Under-ager peeking in with a training question. . . .

---

Egret,

If you want answers as obsessive-compulsive as your questions, you've come to the right thread. However, it's not cool to be this detail-oriented. Just run a lot of aerobic miles, mix in some tempo and speedwork, and let it all hang out in races. You'll do fine.

Dark Horse

------------------
I'm a dark horse, running on a dark race course

IP: Logged

posted Sep-29-2007 03:38 PM               

Will be back in a few minutes...I rarely balk at an offer to voice an opion

IP: Logged

posted Sep-29-2007 04:15 PM               

Felt really good this morning doing 2.5 to stay loose, tomorrow should be fun.

No-one mentioned improving flexibilty to improve running form. I would think they'd go hand in hand...

IP: Logged

posted Sep-29-2007 04:39 PM               

We have a lot in common around this training “problem”. I too am racing a HM on Oct 14 that is one of my most important races of the season. My mileage has been topping out in low 70’s, same as you, with average past several months just over 60. Relative to our time expectations I don’t run as hard as you and believe that I have a good coach. I would think that 8:09 pace assigned would be fast enough to give you plenty of benefit. The wave sounds ok too, but I’d keep the recovery segments at easy pace rather than “steady”. Easy for me is about 2 min per mile slower than I can race 10k, or even a little slower than that.

16km at HM pace? You are an animal to even have such a thought! I'm sure Fred would approve, though, and might even suggest that you finish it up with an all-out last mile.

My highest quality longer runs have included 5-6 miles at just a little faster than M pace in the middle, e.g 4 easy 5-6 “long tempo” pace, 2-3 easy with strides. I also do 6 x 1600 at HM with 200 jog as part of and overall 12 miler, which is what I did this morning. My guess is that I’m in mid 1:27’s shape for HM, and I haven’t averaged faster than high 7:40’s for any of my steady long runs. Usually it’s just a little under 8 or slower.

Hopefully we’ll both have happy stories to tell on Oct 15.

Good luck!

Jim

IP: Logged

posted Sep-29-2007 04:42 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rich in NH:
Down to a wake-up for me. Tomorrow's forecast is for sunny and 35 in the morning, warming into the 60's. Perfect...

Felt really good this morning doing 2.5 to stay loose, tomorrow should be fun.

No-one mentioned improving flexibilty to improve running form. I would think they'd go hand in hand...

---

Have a great run Rich. Good to hear about the nice weather on tap and esecially that you are feeling well.

IP: Logged

posted Sep-29-2007 05:17 PM            

IP: Logged

posted Sep-30-2007 05:19 AM            

A good work out for you today - and I can see how that will set you up well for your HM. Interesting how our training times are quite similar - but I doubt I would be anywhere near you in a race - I've been watching your 5km and 10km times coming down very nicely. . . I think on race day you may just be a tougher customer with higher expectations for your results. In my mind, I couldn't ever imagine running a 1:27, which is exactly why I won't.

Good luck - and thanks again!
Egret

Keep it zen Dark Horse.

IP: Logged

posted Sep-30-2007 05:52 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by egrd:
Keep it zen Dark Horse.

---

Egret,

Here's what I'm interested in: your mileage. I have two questions about your mileage:

1) How did you injury-proof yourself, to get up to 70 mpw? Was it your strength work?

2) Given your injury history, do you think running 70 mpw is a good idea? That's 3,500 miles a year on an annualized basis. Rather than being injured sometimes and running 70 mpw sometimes, is it worth thinking about trying to maintain, say, 40 mpw all year round, while avoiding injury? That's 2,000 miles a year, which still seems like quite a lot to me since my PR is 750. I'm just asking. Strong and steady is a possible alternative to boom and bust.

Dark Horse

------------------
I'm a dark horse, running on a dark race course

IP: Logged

posted Sep-30-2007 09:41 AM            

I hope the racers have the beautiful weather we have here. Started out in the low 40s, no wind, and beautiful blue skies.

I mile warm up, 8 easy miles, 1 mile cool down
Translation: 10 easy miles (10:30) and had to make myself stop.

IP: Logged

posted Sep-30-2007 10:23 AM               

12.24 miles - 1:44:00 - (8:29)
HR - 120 / 136

This next week will be fairly easy as I prepare for the marathon next Sunday. The outlook for the weather is great, although of course that can change at the drop of a hat!

Good runs all, can't wait to hear how Jim and Rich did today.

------------------
My User Profile

"Keep on Running"
Bob

IP: Logged

posted Sep-30-2007 11:11 AM               

Yesterday was 8 flat with the Club. Today on my own at about 7:45 pace. My wife was angry about going out for an hour -- "You said you were going to take it easy" -- and didn't want to hear me say "But I ran it really slowly." Oh well.

The Mets have survived until today. I don't know if I can take much more of this season with them, although it may be over pretty quickly.

IP: Logged

posted Sep-30-2007 11:58 AM            

AM 10 miles very, very slow

The Canadian boxing champs are doing a final tuneup in
Windsor in a couple of weeks and Charlie asked me to run
with them.

IP: Logged

posted Sep-30-2007 12:20 PM            

IP: Logged

posted Sep-30-2007 12:34 PM               

Warm-up walk: 8 min
Run: 12 min
Walk 3 min
Run: at least 12 min, maybe more.
I lost track here and just ran and walked.
Cool down Walk: 10 min
Goal: Keep HR down, increase run time, and increase overall time out. Goal accomplished.

I did not think I would bring September to a close with a run. I am overjoyed.

------------------
Running in wellness

Liz

Lizs Profile

IP: Logged

posted Sep-30-2007 02:24 PM               

No official time yet, but my Timex showed 4:11:13. The carb loading worked, but I ran the early miles too fast and paid late.

Still, a 7 minute PR so life is good...

Thanks to everyone who wished me well, it means a lot.

Liz, so glad to hear you're running again. Good for you!

IP: Logged

posted Sep-30-2007 02:26 PM            

Congrats on your marathon PR, seven minutes is big.

Dark Horse

------------------
I'm a dark horse, running on a dark race course

IP: Logged

posted Sep-30-2007 02:59 PM            

The really slow one would like to know more.

IP: Logged

posted Sep-30-2007 03:22 PM            

After a 2 mile warm up, we lined up and were off. I'm glad I decided to do this at MP and not HMP as it got difficult the last few miles due to the weather.

For most of the race MP felt easy as I reeled off 10 8:30's in a row with only a second or two variance. Several times as I passed mile markers I had to slow myself down. I guess passing another mile marker excited me!

Then the heat, humidity and wind took it out of me a little and I lost a minute or so the next 2 miles, then sprinted it in as best I could. The last half of the race was completely into a 15 mph wind so the 8:30 paces felt a little tougher. 12.4 in 1:46:37 8:35 overall pace.

I think this MP is still okay given the expected cooler temps and humidity of NYC, but I'll reserve judgment till then.

64.6 miles for the week. 2 more weeks till taper.

Bill

------------------
Bill's Profile

IP: Logged

posted Sep-30-2007 03:39 PM               

Burger, nice run. You are ready for NYC...

I just did 30 min of swimming. Felt good to get in the pool. Heel a bit cranky after this mornings workout. Will dial next run back a tad.

------------------
Running in wellness

Liz

Lizs Profile

IP: Logged

posted Sep-30-2007 05:13 PM               

Thanks Dark Horse, Euphoric and Liz,

Euphoric, I had used one of the race calculators to get a marathon pace and it probably was a little optimistic.

I was shooting for a 9:10 pace, or a 4 hour marathon and was on pace 'til the last few miles. Honestly, I think for my fitness level the race calculator missed the mark by a bit and I ran harder than I should have.

Marathons make you pay for your mistakes in a way shorter races can't, but I THINK I'm closer to getting it right...

IP: Logged

posted Sep-30-2007 05:32 PM            

I did the wave run and it went fine, though I ran most of the slower sections too fast, more at MP than steady and my gut balked hard at taking on any gels very politely. (details in the daily where I belong)

DH,
I am trying to break through my perceived limits. I have to push hard. I was aiming for a marathon but realized I lacked the motivation and bailed on those plans, but decided to capatalize on the level of training already in place - I'd like a new HM PR this season.

Nutrition, and particular care to recovery nutrition and supplements have helped keep me healthy. (Amino acids in a isolate powder and flax and fish oils). Also I work hard at the gym as you know. I do three work outs, splitting Upper Body, Legs and Abs/Core over the week. I work out in a periodized cycle, the same as running; with a base cycle and then going to power as my goal race nears. Besides weight training, on leg days, I also do short challenging sessions of cross training such as spinning, the Jacob's Ladder or weighted box steps.

After these sessions, running is the easiest thing I do.

Egret

IP: Logged

posted Sep-30-2007 09:05 PM            

I'm still not sure where I stand on the question of speed, but I believe I remember reading once that 200m speed was an indicator for 5K performance (assuming sufficient endurance training, I guess). I said recently on the sub-20 5K thread something to the effect that if someone were capable of running 6:00-6:10 miles easily, a sub-20 would be no trick.
I know that sounds somewhat simplistic, but at a certain point endurance without speed is useless for racing.

Anyway, thanks again and good luck everyone.

IP: Logged