posted Sep-27-2007 08:26 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by Sun Raider:
Jim

Weights will do very little for form. They can help upper body but they will only add more stress to your legs if you do lower body. You run enough miles already.

Strider's, butt kicks, hops and general sprinters drills will be more effective.
It can change your form, quicken your leg turnover and extend your stride (which means you cover more ground with each foot strike). That can mean being a faster runner.

Raider

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Thanks for the response. I've been thinking a lot about what I want to do next. If I can PR in the HM next month I will have achieved all the goals I set for myself at the beginning of the year. There's a 30k following it that I've committed to, but I've been off and on about the idea mentally. After that there are a few months before USATF series resumes.

Speed is definitely a missing element for me. I haven't won a single sprint finish this year and form isn't so good. Occasionally I check out letsrun.com and there's a guy over there with SoCalPete handle who said something very similar to what you just did. His real name is Peter Magill, I think, and he just ran 32:20 at the race I was in on Sunday. He's 46. As big a believer as I am in developing endurance as much as possible, I think I'm close to as far as I can go with it alone. The longer distances are what I enjoy the most, but even they require a certain amount of speed.

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posted Sep-27-2007 10:52 PM            

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posted Sep-28-2007 05:58 AM            

Rich, Pro, good luck this weekend.

Edited to add that I just got my bib #, 12449.

[This message has been edited by euphoric (edited Sep-28-2007).]

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posted Sep-28-2007 06:07 AM               

10.03 miles - 1:25:11 - (8:29)

HR - 123 / 145

Good luck Rich and Pro with your runs this weekend give em hell!

Euphie, nice runs and I have to agree with the Pro on your backing off and making sure your runs feel easy this next week. Of course now I have to do the same thing and use some discipline this next week and really back off a bit before my marathon on October 7th. Easy to say...harder to do at least for me.

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posted Sep-28-2007 10:49 AM            

Friday - 4 miles easy

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posted Sep-28-2007 11:02 AM            

In order to run this fast, you have to go all out in training, which means you
are going to tear something. Earl Fee had a lot of injuries.

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posted Sep-28-2007 12:26 PM               

3.10 miles in 45:11 for a 14:35 m/m

1.57 miles at an avg. pace of 15:48
1.52 miles at an avg. pace of 13:19

Goal was to run more minutes and keep HR low, low, low

8 min warm up walk
Run 5 min
Walk 2-3 min
Repeated until I covered 3 miles.

goal achieved with no damage to foot. I will swim tomorrow…..

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Running in wellness

Liz

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posted Sep-28-2007 12:39 PM            

It's funny how after we've been running for awhile how we whine about our times (darn--wanted to nail 8 minute miles for 10 straight...) but when we've been on the DL, we are ecstatic with a 14:28 pace.... such is our addiction.
3.6 yesterday for me, 5.4 today. Didn't time them. Good weekends to all.
Euphie--can't wait to read your RR--- you're ready to rock! glidegal

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posted Sep-28-2007 12:48 PM            

I will be running the furthest I've run (in 25 years) this Sunday at the (Columbus) Marathon Training Run. It is a 20 miler. I am a bit anxious but my training buddy and I have successfully done a few 15 milers. The first one was awful, the next two weren't great, but weren't awful, and the last one was almost OK. I have to admit that the thought of running 11 miles after that is daunting, but....

This week has been light, if I run tomorrow then I'll break 30 miles, and I have been feeling tired out. However, took yesterday off (even though today was the scheduled off day) and today's 5 miler was better.

Today's weather is ideal running weather. 60's and sunny (although it was dark when I ran at 6:00 a.m.).

I'm enjoying reading about everyone's adventures and look forward to reading more (hopefully without a week between reads).

Happy running and good luck to anyone running in the Akron Marathon (free shoes and free beer, how do you beat that?) this weekend.

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posted Sep-28-2007 01:54 PM            

Back home I did 29 minutes of exercises, and they are coming along nicely too. Tomorrow I will try to jog a 5-miler and see how that feels. Spareribs

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posted Sep-28-2007 02:38 PM            

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posted Sep-28-2007 02:58 PM            

If anyone were to nail down my problems, that says it all. The chronic problems I have had for the last 3 years in the glute/hams have certainly affected my stride, and I am only now seeing a glimmer of hope through disciplined PT that is correcting it.

In the last short cycle I had of being in shape and on the way to being in better shape, I got hurt again, but during that time I felt when I raced that I could really "throw that front leg out there" with total comfort. The glute and ham problems keep you from doing that. The exercises I am doing now have added strength to muscles that were causing an imbalance in my stride and I am hopeful.

Jim and Raider were just talking about strengthening exercises and I agree with them, but my strengthening exercises are not to make my legs stronger; they are to make targeted muscles play a more active role in helping me to have a better stride, foot plant and hip rotation.

And for me to race well, I have to have all this work well, without any impediments, because I have NO SPEED! Spareribs

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posted Sep-28-2007 03:04 PM            

I think you don't have a problem. Well, you do have one and that is running 70 miles per week but if it makes your stronger then don't shoot the horse that brung ya.

You just don't have natural speed. I am 60 and can still work my way down to 15 second 100's. You sound like you have plenty of endurance. Don't know how old you are or what your 5K & 10K race times are but your tempo runs sound pretty strong. Work on what makes your strong. You could focus on speed and getting your 100's down but in the end you might just get injured.

The recommendation to Jim was that he do quick striders to improve form and turnover but not for the sake of pure speed. Really, if Jim didn't want to go this route who could blame him. He is plenty fast enough anyway.

I have always been fortunate in that my speed and endurance are balanced (even in my fastest days). Even now I don't really care about speed. I can still run in the 17's for 5K and in the low 5's for the mile. I am not going to mess it up by changing my "so called" training.

Raider

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posted Sep-28-2007 05:15 PM            

Use Galloway walk breaks throughout and you'll make 20 miles easily. Walk for something like a minute or two out of every mile. Walk fast but not hard. The walking relieves some of the fatigue on the running muscles.

Why be nervous? It's not like you are in an airplane and will crash if you stop. If you stop running you can always walk in or get picked up by a stranger in a car and last be seen on your way to Venice Beach in California where you become a female bodybuilder.

Raider

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posted Sep-29-2007 08:41 AM            

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posted Sep-29-2007 09:00 AM               

Saturday - 8.02 miles - 1:08:04 - (8:29) - HR 120 / 139

Ahhhh cooler weather and less humidity, gotta love it!

A day like today for next Sunday's marathon would be awesome, right now the outlook is for showers which still beats the 80-90's and high humidity.

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posted Sep-29-2007 09:42 AM               

Just back from my tune up
1.5M wu (HR=error)
1/2M at 2:56 (178)
1M at 9 (153)
1/2M at 2:58 (181)
1.5M cd (155)

5M 45min (167) total
There is NO way I am running 6's tomorrow. Guesses?

I was smart and took my own advice. I was thinking 5M with three 4min fast parts mixed in. Woulda' been too much.

Craig

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posted Sep-29-2007 10:25 AM               

quote:

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Originally posted by OldXCguy:
Jim24315, I believe I have a similar problem in lacking speed. I log a good number of miles (frequently in the 70's per week), so my endurance is pretty good. Tempo runs aren't bad, but race pace feels hard. (I ran a few 5K's last spring in the 20:20-20:30 range, and managed to dip under 20 once on a really good day with a 19:50.) I suspect that improved speed would help my 5 & 10K times, even aside from any effect on my finishing kick, which is usually irrevelant. To quantify it, I struggle mightily to break 20 seconds for 100 meters, whereas I can remember years ago cruising through 16 X 400m w/ 200m recoveries in 72-73 seconds, or about 18s/ 100m. I suspect that chronic soreness and injuries to my hamstrings and glutes have shortened my stride. (My cadence seems OK at 175-180 in training, and >180 at faster paces.)
Would you (and others) say my problem is speed or more strength/stamina?

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It's hard to say XCguy. If I had to guess I would say that you will still get more from LT type workouts than anything. The recent breakthrough I've experienced at 5k has come during HM training (long runs with 6m at ~M pace in the middle, 6 x 1600 at HM pace, 1000's at 10k pace, and increased mileage). My finishing speed is still weak and stride is still short and choppy, but times have been coming down in spite of those deficiencies.

That being said, there's probably only so far we can go with that approach before we need a little extra shot of speed. Maybe the strides that Raider mentioned would help. I was actually doing some fairly regularly until past month when races came close together. If you are hitting 70's on some weeks I'd say that your endurance should start to improve. Sometimes we seem to be stuck on a plateau, before unexepectedly moving up a notch. Do you still communicate with Tinman?

P.S.
I haven't timed any hundreds, but to compare with your struggling to break 20, I have been tacking on a few 200's at the end of a longer interval sessions and am running about as fast as I can to hit 42-43 range. I've noticed guys on sub-20 thread who routinely go 40 and under on those. And they still haven't broken 20.

[This message has been edited by Jim24315 (edited Sep-29-2007).]

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posted Sep-29-2007 10:26 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by OldXCguy:
Jim24315, I believe I have a similar problem in lacking speed. I log a good number of miles (frequently in the 70's per week), so my endurance is pretty good. Tempo runs aren't bad, but race pace feels hard. (I ran a few 5K's last spring in the 20:20-20:30 range, and managed to dip under 20 once on a really good day with a 19:50.) I suspect that improved speed would help my 5 & 10K times, even aside from any effect on my finishing kick, which is usually irrevelant. To quantify it, I struggle mightily to break 20 seconds for 100 meters, whereas I can remember years ago cruising through 16 X 400m w/ 200m recoveries in 72-73 seconds, or about 18s/ 100m. I suspect that chronic soreness and injuries to my hamstrings and glutes have shortened my stride. (My cadence seems OK at 175-180 in training, and >180 at faster paces.)
Would you (and others) say my problem is speed or more strength/stamina?

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My speed improved this week from the 110 mile week I ran last week.

I ran them in singles so the FT fibers may have been stimulated after
90 minutes.

Remember that Snell was running hilly 22 milers to get to an 800 in
1:44.

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posted Sep-29-2007 10:30 AM            

AM 1 mile warmup, 8 mile hammer ( puked ), 1 mile warmdown, 52F

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posted Sep-29-2007 10:38 AM               

Fred, if I puked when I ran, I don't know if I would keep running...I will never be as fast as you because of this.

[This message has been edited by runningindc (edited Sep-29-2007).]

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posted Sep-29-2007 10:50 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by runningindc:

Fred, if I puked when I ran, I don't know if I would keep running...I will never be as fast as you because of this.

[This message has been edited by runningindc (edited Sep-29-2007).]

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I was bonking on the 7th mile but I kept pushing = puke

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posted Sep-29-2007 10:52 AM            

"Yes, but keep in mind that a few years ago, when Mayock went to train with El Guerrouj in Morocco, he reported that El_G ran 10 miles, in 50 minutes, at altitude....FIVE DAYS IN A ROW.

Whether your Lagat or El Guerrouj, that's how you run 3:26--a lot of VERY hard, high-end arobic running."

Why does this work? Milers with PB's at 3:45 to 3:50 running 10 milers in
48 to 50 minutes.

[This message has been edited by fredurie (edited Sep-29-2007).]

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posted Sep-29-2007 11:17 AM               

As to a lack of finishing speed, I feel I've lost some, and I don't know if it's me or my head or my age. My speedwork can get pretty quick, but I don't have the pop I used to at the end of races.

I'm enjoying the feeling of not having to run, and I missed a few days this week. Tomorrow I might go for a bike ride instead of a run, and that'd be the first Sunday in quite a while that I have had that option. But I'll start getting back into a routine soon.

One thing I'm planning as a new season begins is beginning a weight-lifting program, for my running and for my aging. Any ideas or suggestions?

Today, a nice and easy run with the Club. The pace was a pedestrian 8 flat, and with a couple of exceptions everyone stayed together, so we had the largest pack of finishers I’ve seen. Just a typical relaxed group run on some beautiful streets and a great view of the Sound. Afterwards, I was going-on about the short (5.95 mile) 10K leg at the Triathlon, and some members who have done triathlons told me that I should chill out because their courses are always off and the athletes go with the flow.

Perhaps I’m too anal, but as a runner, I live for accurate distances. Sure, in local races I am skeptical about accuracy, but for a race that purports to be a big deal, the organizers need to do a better job. In this case, you pay a lot of money to race and I think the RD knew the run was short, because the mile markers seemed accurate through mile 5. I don’t mind running a 5.95-miler if they tell me I’m running, or have run, a 5.95-miler. But apparently if the athletes don’t care, and don’t complain, why should it be done differently? Were this a big-deal running race, people would be all over the RD. I suggested a conversion (e.g., my 34:55 converts to a 36:23) be included on the Tri results page, but I have my doubts that they’ll admit the error, particularly since they’ve admitted that the swim was short, with an explanation.

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posted Sep-29-2007 11:18 AM               

quote:

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Originally posted by fredurie:
http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?board=1&id=2104980&thread=2102938

"Yes, but keep in mind that a few years ago, when Mayock went to train with El Guerrouj in Morocco, he reported that El_G ran 10 miles, in 50 minutes, at altitude....FIVE DAYS IN A ROW.

Whether your Lagat or El Guerrouj, that's how you run 3:26--a lot of VERY hard, high-end arobic running."

Why does this work? Milers with PB's at 3:45 to 3:50 running 10 milers in
48 to 50 minutes.

[This message has been edited by fredurie (edited Sep-29-2007).]

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For them it's more than a minute over race pace. For someone who run's a 6-min mile that's about a 7:10 and so on down the line. It's all relative.

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