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September 50 Plus Training and Racing

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Author	Topic: September 50 Plus Training and Racing
Rich in NH Cool Runner	posted Sep-18-2007 05:43 PM I'm with Jim, Dennis should be posting here. Thanks Rose. gg, good luck with your 5K Sunday. Tuesday A 9 miler today with 3 buddies. I don't run often with other runners, so the occasional run with these guys is a treat. Plenty of hills, a good workout. Bill, your training's going really well, good for you... IP: Logged
bobscamman Cool Runner	posted Sep-18-2007 06:15 PM Monday - Bright & Sunny 65 degrees 5.02 miles - 44:15 - (8:49) 9:04 - 9:00 - 8:49 - 8:47 - 8:22 - :10 Tuesday - Bright & Sunny 65 degrees 2.25 mile warm up - 18:57 - (8:26) 10 x .5 mile Intervals w/1 minute recovery jogs 2:58 - 3:09 - 3:09 - 3:11 - 3:14 3:20 - 3:23 - 3:19 - 3:14 - 2:56 2.25 mile cool down - 18:51 - (8:23) 10.12 miles total - 1:15:47 - (7:2 ------------------ My User Profile "Keep on Running" Bob IP: Logged
Spareribs Cool Runner	posted Sep-18-2007 06:16 PM The Glider is due to kick some butt; go GG. Euphie I am proud of you. Bill, you are made of iron, nice going you two. I'm in pouring down rain Minnesota today and tomorrow, not much time to post. Spareribs IP: Logged
euphoric Cool Runner	posted Sep-18-2007 06:38 PM Rose, thanks for taking the time to include that report. The Air Force put on a great show and I hope all enjoyed the race at Wright Pat. I have got to wind down for the day, or the shoes are back on and I am out the door again. Does anyone else get like this? Ribs, how's the therapy going? (I loved writing that.) gg, you wouldn't cut me any slack. Just do it. IP: Logged
Sun Raider Cool Runner	posted Sep-19-2007 01:03 AM Runners who don't race do not need tapers. Having a conversation with Fred about tapering is like having a conversation with me about marathons. I disagree with Jim's take on not really dropping mileage (much) during a taper. That is fool's gold at best. It just shows a lack of confidence in one's traing and conditioning. I ran down that road years back and I know everyone is different but compensation or even super compensation by really dropping off the running before a key race has an incredibly positive effect on a runners ability to race well. However Jim is setting age group PR's and one has to respect that even though he does not know the art of the taper but he has heart and strength so he is running well. (Don't get upset Jim, I admire your recent breakthrough and your willingness to put in the work. Just not your opinion on pre-race tapering). I ran plenety of fast times not tapering but my fastest times came when I learned to have confidence and just drop my weekly miles by 50% and more in the weeks before a key race. I can remember going to starting line barely able to contain myself. That's how ready I was to go fast. I am for high miles (relative to each runner) but we have to watch that the workouts don't become the end product versus the races. If we don't care about racing then the workouts are the end product and there is nothing wrong with that. Just don't try to pass it off as "training for faster performance". You may run faster but you'll never hit your peak relative to your current ability. I remember running a wonderful 10K several weeks before a key race. The following day, I caught a cold that turned into the flu. It forced me to stop training for 10 days. I then ran easily for several days and went out and demolished my 10K PR on a very accurate course. It shocked me. Inadvertantly I had tapered. A coach I knew who advocated Lydiard wised me up. "You tapered," he said. "You really tapered." Later on I learned how to dupliacte that taper (wthout the flu). That led me to the Olympic trials. IP: Logged
Jim24315 Cool Runner	posted Sep-19-2007 09:57 AM Raider, I base my comments on personal experience and conversations with someone who has coached hundreds of runnners, including many faster than you and and an Olympic medalist. Btw, many of them DO taper. The people who are likely to have the least success are those who don't run high milelage. That includes me. There are other factors, which I should include in all my discussions and haven't. I have mentioned them, though, on several occasions. the most important of which is muscle fiber makeup. Those with more slow twitch fibers don't do as well on longer tapers. That would also include me. I would have to have a very closed mind to make all these comments without having any first hand experience. You think I don't know the "art" of tapering? It's not exactly rocket science. I mean...you can reduce mileage, intensity or both. I've tried it many times, and the results have ALWAYS been that it either doesn't help or I get worse. The last time was while working under a name coach via the online route less than 3 years ago. While buidling my base up to 50 miles, my times continued to come down. During the taper my miles were reduced by more than 40%, down to mid 20's, low 30's and I was given 2 days off each week. I was then "sharpened" with anaerobic workouts. Within a month my 5k time slowed by a full minute. To make sure that I wasn't just having a bad day I tried 2 more with same results. After that I went back on my own, upped the miles, and within 3 months my times were back to where they had been. This was not the first time something like this has happened by any stretch. I've read books that included tapering information too. Had I been running 80-90 mpw and tapered it might have helped, but I wasn't. So, I'll stand by my comments. There are many, many runners whose performances are probably hurt by excessive tapering. This doesn't mean that nobody should ever taper--I never said that. IP: Logged
euphoric Cool Runner	posted Sep-19-2007 10:12 AM Did I open that can of worms, too? I'll listen to everyone. IP: Logged
Dark Horse Cool Runner	posted Sep-19-2007 11:00 AM quote: Originally posted by Jim24315: While buidling my base up to 50 miles, my times continued to come down. During the taper my miles were reduced by more than 40%, down to mid 20's, low 30's and I was given 2 days off each week. I was then "sharpened" with anaerobic workouts. Within a month my 5k time slowed by a full minute. Jim, This is really hard for me to believe. I'm not denying it happened that way, just saying it's hard for me to believe. My experiences, such as they are, would predict the opposite outcome. As Spareribs has pointed out many times, I am a cretin, so my analysis means nothing. But looking at the facts you report, I'm guessing you must be a total strength runner, and you must have, like, no fast-twitch fibers whatsoever. Therefore a taper actually weakens you, because you lose strength and don't gain speed. But I'm only a cretin--what do I know. Dark Horse ------------------ I'm a dark horse, running on a dark race course IP: Logged
fredurie Cool Runner	posted Sep-19-2007 11:48 AM Yes, yes, some elites don't taper very much. I think that Sell ran 18 miles the day before Crim one year, and still placed well. Wednesday AM 15 miles @ around 7:45, 61F, once over the hill. Raider, I won at least 40 races in my prime and I can talk about tapering. IP: Logged
Jim24315 Cool Runner	posted Sep-19-2007 01:43 PM quote: Originally posted by Dark Horse: Jim, This is really hard for me to believe. I'm not denying it happened that way, just saying it's hard for me to believe. My experiences, such as they are, would predict the opposite outcome. It's true--honestly, but I'm going to get off my soapbox about this topic (after this one last time ) I'm sure that it is going to be taken way out of context even though I"ve continued to say that there are times when tapering can work well. I even do a little myself. It would be stupid to for any of us to run ourselves into the ground before an important race--that is if we hope to do well.. I'll even be dropping from high 60's low 70's down mid 50's for the last week or so before my half marathon next month. However, to doing anything more extreme than that, or extend the taper out for a few weeks probably wouldn't work as well for me. For some people it might. You are all welcome to throw eggs, rotten tomatoes, or whatever else you can get your hands on at me if I keep up with this. I don't know what got into me... [This message has been edited by Jim24315 (edited Sep-19-2007).] IP: Logged
fredurie Cool Runner	posted Sep-19-2007 01:51 PM quote: Originally posted by Jim24315: You are all welcome to throw eggs, rotten tomatoes, or whatever else you can get your hands on at me if I keep up with this. I don't know what got into me... [This message has been edited by Jim24315 (edited Sep-19-2007).] Say what you like; I respect your opinion. IP: Logged
glidegal Cool Runner	posted Sep-19-2007 03:52 PM jim--enjoy the gift... cretins welcome--even young ones. 2 minutes 39 seconds for me today and turned around to home... not sure why. possibly a taper... hey dc (to the tune of Steely Dan's "Hey Nineteen), you wrote a cool post the other day about swimming and your upper body... WTG!! you are a water churning machine apparently. so one question: are you using your legs enough? when I swam competitively I relied on my arms too much. Just asking, not preaching. glidegal ETA: First Christmas sighting: greeting cards at Target... that just ain't right... [This message has been edited by glidegal (edited Sep-19-2007).] IP: Logged
Jim24315 Cool Runner	posted Sep-19-2007 03:55 PM Thank you Fred. Wednesday: 12 miles total on track, including 6 x 1600 x 400 jog (6:33, 6:34, 6:34, 6:36, 6:33, 6:35), then 4 x 200 x 200 jog (44, 43, 43, 43) 3 mile warmup and 15 minute jog on grass for cooldown. This was supposed to be HM pace and probably optimistic. The full lap jog helps too--that's probably why I went faster than last time with same effort. I normally get only a 200 jog, but might be racing this Sunday. The DeAnza College team was doing a long workout while I was doing mine and it was so refreshing to be around such well-behaved kids. They would move to the outside lane during their jog intervals, allowing me to stay on the inside, and I would do the same for them. Very friendly and respectul too. Unfortunately this is usually not the kind of exeprience I have when running on the highschool track near my house. It makes such a difference when people are nice and treat each other with respect. IP: Logged
Jim24315 Cool Runner	posted Sep-19-2007 03:59 PM And thank you too, Glidegal I still listen to Steely Dan, btw...good taste IP: Logged
rosecoloredglasses Cool Runner	posted Sep-19-2007 04:22 PM quote: Originally posted by Jim24315: And thank you too, Glidegal I still listen to Steely Dan, btw...good taste Me too! Caves of Altamira Royal Scam Peg FM Reelin' in the Years and so on and so on... IP: Logged
Dark Horse Cool Runner	posted Sep-19-2007 04:44 PM glidegal, You are the Bomb. Your brownies came today! I love Steely Dan. Ah, the band, not the home appliance. Dark Horse ------------------ I'm a dark horse, running on a dark race course IP: Logged
euphoric Cool Runner	posted Sep-19-2007 05:05 PM Rose, nice to see you moving toward the light.... Wait a minute. Have you reeled in enough years to be here? Jim, I'll deflect the tomatoes and we'll use them for a pasta dinner. Nice run today. I didn't expect much from the scheduled 6M run today. I'm really lucky to have a great new partner who pushes me almost as hard as some people here. We barely had time to finish discussing one topic over 6 miles. I'll be tagging along to watch her run the NYC marathon. 9:41, 9:17, talking and forgot to hit the button, last 4M avg. 9:25 Nice and easy. gg, it will all come together tomorrow. Note to Ribs: All under 10:00, that post has really stuck with me and kicked me out of my comfort zone. As Steely might sing, "The things that pass for knowlege I can't understand." Keep the discussions going guys. IP: Logged
Rich in NH Cool Runner	posted Sep-19-2007 05:23 PM It's tough getting older sometimes, but the maturity from this bunch is always fun to watch. Jim, post what you like, it's all good... Wednesday, 3 miles @ recovery... Short run gg, that just might be a record here... IP: Logged
bobscamman Cool Runner	posted Sep-19-2007 06:55 PM I am in complete agreement with Fred on this one Jim...post what you wish. I for one certainly respect and take a great deal out of your posts. We are all so very different which is why I love getting ideas and critiques from the likes of Fred, Jim, Ribs, Raider and all the rest. I read them all and sort through the various suggestions and although I take them all to heart, I don't always put them all into practice. I try my best to mold everyones suggestions to what I feel fits me best. Of course I haven't always been successful but overall I think I have been, and I know I owe a great deal to you all. NUFF SAID - Now for Wednesdays run: Bright & sunny again - 65 degrees - I'm loving this weather! 5.02 miles fairly easy - 42:33 - (8:29) - HR - 122 / 139 ------------------ My User Profile "Keep on Running" Bob IP: Logged
glidegal Cool Runner	posted Sep-19-2007 07:03 PM DH, now you are in deep... What, pray tell, is a Steely Dan home appliance? Does it require batteries? Does Sgt Camargo have one? Do you? While the poor people sleep with the shade on the light, while the poor people sleep all the stars come out at night... We are all ears... glidegal IP: Logged
Sun Raider Cool Runner	posted Sep-20-2007 12:22 AM Jim I will have my people contact your people. Raider SOAPBOX-R-US IP: Logged
Spareribs Cool Runner	posted Sep-20-2007 08:05 AM Didn't even put the suitcase away last night when I got home. Left it out to pack for Pittsburgh this afternoon. Headed out for a short walk/jog now. My two days in Minneapolis were tough so I couldn't walk or jog, so that should have given me a nice taper for today! Seriously, I was never very good when I tapered a lot, so I was really interested in that discussion, and I love this site when people offer opinions and we differ. That way all of us learn. For a guy who used to run a lot of miles, I probably still am a cretin when it comes to how much to taper. Spareribs IP: Logged
jpgarland Cool Runner	posted Sep-20-2007 09:34 AM Having done RTB and with a 10K this Sunday as the last leg of a triathlon, I feel I've fallen off a cliff in terms of thinking about training. A few races in the fall for the fun of it, no long runs, days off, and then building ultimately for NY 2008. As Bruce put it, "I'm not here on business, baby, I'm only here for fun." At least for a while. IP: Logged
fredurie Cool Runner	posted Sep-20-2007 09:50 AM Thursday AM 15 miles @ around 8:10, 62F and ground fog, the 1st 7 with Bill. I have no opinion on the home appliance stuff. IP: Logged
Jim24315 Cool Runner	posted Sep-20-2007 10:13 AM Spareribs; It's been hard to see you having to deal with all the injuries. I don't think I've ever seen you 100% even when you were running consitently before this most recent setback. While not the quick fix that some of these programs are, there is no question in my mind that you would have been down under 20 for 5k with approach you were using if not for the setbacks. I doubt that is was the way you were training that caused it, although you made things worse with a couple ill advised races. I think there was something off before you even started. Ed Whitlock took a year off (I think I read that) past the age of 70 only to come back and run sub-3. Of course there aren't many like him, but his example shows that it's possible to comeback after a long layoff, even at an advanced age. Jim IP: Logged

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