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Topic: April 50 Plus Training and Racing |
fredurie
Cool Runner |
 posted Apr-07-2007 01:02 PM
  
Jim, I ran singles this week because I was sick and I wasn't
backing off.Because I was jogging, training stimulus had to come from
some where and that was in the 80 miles in singles. I don't advise others to train when sick, but I do things my
way based on 33 years of running.
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Spareribs
Cool Runner |
posted Apr-07-2007 01:54 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Rich in NH:
In a recent issue of Runner's World, they asked Katie McGregor (2005 & 2006 national 10000 meter champ) how her training changed when she decided to run a marathon. (she finished 9th female overall in 2:32:36 at NYC last year) Her reply, " I run 90 to 100 miles a week for the 10-K. I kept the same distance, but distributed it differently. Instead of breaking 20 miles into two runs, I'd do them all at once. The long runs left my legs feeling heavy, which was tough because during 10-K training I have some spunk in my legs. The long runs, however, do teach you to run hard even when you think you can't." I wouldn't have thought there'd be that much training difference in breaking down a 20 miler into 2 runs versus 1. Comments?
From Daws' "Running Your Best": "Fat is the main, but not exclusive, fuel during sub-maximal work. But when your muscles metabolize mainly fat, there's a greater demand for oxygen than when burning glycogen, so you either have to take in more air or slow down. Fat is not a preferred fuel at fast paces. In races shorter than tenK, runners burn glycogen almost exclusively. When a marathoner efficiently burns fat, that means he or she conserves glycogen, which will be there to be burned with devastating effect on the competition during the last ten km. David Costill found that the gastrocnemius (calf) muscle becomes seven times more capable of burning fat after marathon training (prolonged endurance runs) than normally occurs in untrained muscle. He concludes, 'Thus, we have evidence to substantiate why it is essential for the endurance runner to perform extremely long runs in training, and to log 80 to 120 miles per week.' Furthermore, West German physiologists at Cologne University found that if muscle groups are exercised continually for long periods, especially two or more hours, dormant capillary beds are reactivated and new ones are formed. This means more blood flow, more oxygen to the muscles. That raises one's VO2 max, which in turn makes it easier for the muscles to burn fat.'" Spareribs
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bobscamman
Cool Runner |
posted Apr-07-2007 02:41 PM
Saturday morning - Bright and sunny, 25 degrees 6 mph wind.8.57 miles - 1:14:19 - (8:40) Fairly easy paced long run with some along the shore of Camp Ellis to get a look at how bad the erosion was from this last storm. I won't be doing too much more "hard" stuff with my marathon only 8 days away. I will however throw a few marathon paced miles in to keep the memory and feel in my muscles. I am really looking forward to this one and getting a little antsy! ------------------
My User Profile "Keep on Running"
Bob
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Rich in NH
Cool Runner |
posted Apr-07-2007 03:33 PM
Some great responses to my question, thanks...It seems there's a place for both single and double runs that total 20 in a day. I'll try "doubling up" this summer, I thought McGregor's comments were interesting. Nice week Fred! Bob, I've a feeling you're in for a fun marathon at Boston, your training has been going really well...
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glidegal
Cool Runner |
posted Apr-07-2007 05:26 PM
If this question is too basic for this group, please feel free to direct me to a better forum. How do you determine a HM or FM pace for training purposes? Is it by determining the pace at which you want to run those races, then dividing accordingly? Also, I've noted that on many of your HM/FM training runs that those paces differ by about 30 seconds. Is that be design? Finally, as I begin to sketch out a plan to prepare for a half and ultimately a marathon, how do I incorporate these paces into weekly workouts? At present I run 4-5 days a week (between 5-6 miles per run on average) building mileage after a 10 week layoff. Any help would be appreciated. thanks, glidegal
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Jim24315
Cool Runner |
posted Apr-07-2007 06:13 PM
Glidegal,If you know what your current 5k race pace is, or any recent race time that you are confident accurately represents your current condition, you can use one of the calculators. I would recommend this one from Jack Daniels: http://runworks.com/calculator.html I usually recommend 5k pace because it's a distance almost everyone has run one, and also because longer distances are more dependent on training mileage. Never mind that the 5k might not bear any relationship to what you could run a marathon or HM in, it is a great distance to base workouts on. That's what I base my on, even though my training is geared more for 10k through HM. Keep in mind that these are guildlines and make a good basis for a starting point. Since most of us feel better on some days than others, and therefore will want to go a little faster on some days and slower on others. Generally, however, I think it's good to stay in the ballpark and not get too far away from the suggested ranges. And then there are always the heart rate monitors which I'm not qualified to talk about.
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Spareribs
Cool Runner |
posted Apr-07-2007 08:12 PM
Great question Glidegal, and I am sorry you had a difficult run today. As Jay has pointed out on the daily, it will get better, but I know it is painful for you now and you are having a tough time trying to build mileage and get healthy again.Runs at different paces for training purposes are all geared from two general sources. One is real history, so that a half marathon pace is what you just did. The other is off the fiveK pace, and as Jim points out, fiveK is best because of the reason Jim posts, that most people have done one recently or are familiar with their fiveK times. But another important reason is that a fiveK race is generally run at 90-95% of VO2 max, and is therefore more accurate at predicting your pace times for other workouts. I will be happy to send you Daniels' book, which I found to be very useful on this subject. And as you put your plan together for the half or full, I will be happy to help you finalize it, given that you are coming back from injury. Yours was a great question, as there really is a lot of gap in pace in the formulaic training programs you can find. Of all of them the Runners' World programs and the Pfitzinger programs are the worst. Best is to understand WHY any program has you do any workout at any time, and Daniels is pretty good. Spareribs
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jpgarland
Cool Runner |
posted Apr-07-2007 10:05 PM
One thing about the Daniels table, which I use as well, is that it is based upon your current times, as a measure of current fitness. Over time, the paces should drop.After last night's slog, had a great run today. Had to go into work. The plan was to run from my office at 40th and Madison and pick up the train about 10.5 miles north, at Fordham. Felt great running through Central Park and picked it up a bit through Harlem and along the Grand Concourse, and was going pretty well. Which worked out pretty well since I made it to Fordham with about 2 minutes to spare.
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glidegal
Cool Runner |
posted Apr-08-2007 02:12 AM
Thanks Jim24315, Spareribs and Joe... ironically I have never run a 5K--I started with 10Ks 30 years ago, attempted a couple of marathons (improving my time from 4:45 in 1995 to 4:05 in 2003) and have settled on the half marathon as my favorite race, although it's not nearly as sexy as a full marathon back in the clubhouse. Since my current endurance is growing slowly but steadily, I will find a local 5K soon to get a baseline time to enter into the Daniels calculator to extrapolate my other paces. Then with your indulgence, I'll be asking how to create some quality workouts which keep weekly mileage relatively low, but incorporate speedwork within the daily expected plan as I've noticed many of you are doing. Thank you for your help. On-on glidegal
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bobscamman
Cool Runner |
posted Apr-08-2007 09:53 AM
Sunday - Easter Morning - nice and sunny 26 degrees with a stiff wind.8.02 miles - 1:10-:04 - (8:44) Avg HR 127 / Max HR 135 Nice and slow today, this will be a pretty easy week for me with easy runs as I head into Marathon Monday! I will throw in a couple of marathon paced miles intermixed with my runs but nothing too fast. I want to make sure my legs are fresh for next week. ------------------
My User Profile "Keep on Running"
Bob
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Spareribs
Cool Runner |
posted Apr-08-2007 11:24 AM
That's right Bob, and whatever you do, don't walk around the Expo all day Sunday. Rest the legs.Had a great wave run today. 15 miles with ave. pace of 8:12, 2 @ MP in 7:49 and 7:48, and 3 @ HMP in 7:26, 7:27 and 7:05 (oops!). My focus in this run was to ensure that my easy alternating miles had some energy in them, rather than a slow jog. So I achieved that goal, running the easy ones in the 8:30's for the most part. 42 and no wind today and I felt very strong. Full exercise set afterwards. Spareribs
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fredurie
Cool Runner |
posted Apr-08-2007 11:30 AM
SundayAM 6 miles @ around 7:35 , 28F. Snow overnight, so I ran along the dirt beside a road that had
been salted.
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fredurie
Cool Runner |
posted Apr-08-2007 11:49 AM
Jim,Josh McDougal: "Stu and I didn't do any workouts this year, steady/fast running everyday, about 120 to 125 mpw on singles."
"Junior Josh McDougal raced to a 13:37.32 clocking while winning the 5,000-meter title at the IC4A Championships Sunday at Boston University, setting several records "
A 17 miler every day often with some tempo in it. [This message has been edited by fredurie (edited Apr-08-2007).]
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fredurie
Cool Runner |
posted Apr-08-2007 12:19 PM
" At present I run 4-5 days a week (between 5-6 miles per run on average)" - GlidegalSunday - 10 miles easy
Tuesday - 4 quick
Thursday - 2 mile warmup, 4 times a mile at 10k pace, 2 mile
warmdown
Friday - 5 miles easy [This message has been edited by fredurie (edited Apr-08-2007).]
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Jim24315
Cool Runner |
posted Apr-08-2007 12:47 PM
quote:
Originally posted by fredurie:
Jim,Josh McDougal: "Stu and I didn't do any workouts this year, steady/fast running everyday, about 120 to 125 mpw on singles."
"Junior Josh McDougal raced to a 13:37.32 clocking while winning the 5,000-meter title at the IC4A Championships Sunday at Boston University, setting several records "
A 17 miler every day often with some tempo in it. [This message has been edited by fredurie (edited Apr-08-2007).]
Yes, it's legal to run high mileage and race 5k's. You think these guys aren't going to be ready for a fast marathon if they ever decide to run one? Makes me think of this one again: "During my career, the most important aspect of my training regime was strength. You can pend the rest of your life working on speed and make little progress, but if you spend the rest of your running career working on strength, you’ll always continue to improve. Improvements are also achieved by increasing your endurance. What do I mean by strength or endurance? Mileage, Mileage, Mileage!"
Steve Scott
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Jim24315
Cool Runner |
posted Apr-08-2007 12:49 PM
Good run, Spareribs--very good.
I'm quietly watching, Bob. Everything I see says you are more ready than you've ever been.
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glidegal
Cool Runner |
posted Apr-08-2007 01:06 PM
Thanks fredurie, I'll have to work up to that 10 miler (and 8 for that matter) but I like the way this could work for me. Probably early to mid May before I can give it a try.
I found 2 local 5Ks on 4/22 and 4/29 to clock a baseline time, so I'm excited about those and the idea of short + speed runs. I'll keep you posted. Thanks all for resparking my interest in training as opposed to just running. Happy Easter, glidegal
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fredurie
Cool Runner |
posted Apr-09-2007 10:10 AM
MondayAM 3 mile warmup, 1200-200-200 @ mile race pace or faster
with 2 min jog recovery, 2 mile warmdown, indoor track
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Spareribs
Cool Runner |
posted Apr-09-2007 10:47 AM
Monday: well fred, I was right with you through that 3-mile warm-up, then I went and got a massage. Today was just a short and slow recovery day. Spareribs
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fredurie
Cool Runner |
posted Apr-09-2007 11:00 AM
Jim, Rono looks huge in the photo.One day this week he ran 2 hours in the AM and time trialed
a 5:28 mile in the PM.
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Jim24315
Cool Runner |
posted Apr-09-2007 11:18 AM
Yes, and when you consider that he outran his mile time by a long ways when he stepped up to 5000, it makes you wonder what he will do if he gets thin. The weight is supposed to slow you down more as you add distance. He has an unbelievable aerobic capacity. I don't know why he is focusing on the mile when all his world records came 3000-10000. Clearly he is better at those distances.
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Sun Raider
Cool Runner |
posted Apr-09-2007 06:52 PM
JimRono didn't focus on the mile back then. No one knows what he could have done if he had. His other races back then seem to say sub a 3:48 mile or faster. I believe that the mile is his beacon or motivation for coming back.
One has to wonder why you are running 60 mile plus weeks. One has to wonder why I run so few miles and yet am faster than you. One has to wonder why Ilene wants sock puppets. One has to wonder how much sock puppets train a week. I have heard they run drawers (like stairs but in the sock puppet world drawers are stairs). Raider
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bobscamman
Cool Runner |
posted Apr-09-2007 07:43 PM
Monday - Sunny, 41 degrees & windy (20 mph)3 Miles easy - 25:26 - (8:22) Avg HR - 126 / Max HR - 136 ------------------
My User Profile "Keep on Running"
Bob
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Spareribs
Cool Runner |
posted Apr-09-2007 08:01 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Sun Raider:
JimRono didn't focus on the mile back then. No one knows what he could have done if he had. His other races back then seem to say sub a 3:48 mile or faster. I believe that the mile is his beacon or motivation for coming back.
One has to wonder why you are running 60 mile plus weeks. One has to wonder why I run so few miles and yet am faster than you. One has to wonder why Ilene wants sock puppets. One has to wonder how much sock puppets train a week. I have heard they run drawers (like stairs but in the sock puppet world drawers are stairs). Raider
Sun Raider, try to post earlier in the day. Spareribs
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euphoric
Cool Runner |
posted Apr-10-2007 07:57 AM
I've switched days on the workout schedule. We had a good but windy 7 mile run on Sunday working on maintaining speed on the inclines. My legs felt like Jello at the end of the run. They turned from Jello to lead this morning on a 4 mile run.. I'll work on more stretching today and do the mile repeats tomorrow with my new watch which will allow me to time splits. fredurie, hope you are feeling better.
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