posted Apr-06-2007 10:37 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Ileneforward:
I wish I had sock puppets in my drawers.

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Ilene,

How about a stud soldier?

Dark Horse

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I'm a dark horse, running on a dark race course

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posted Apr-06-2007 10:40 AM            

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posted Apr-06-2007 12:13 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Jim24315:
Are these all singles? How often do you use doubles when running 100+ miles?

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Lydiard 100 is run in singles.

I ran doubles for higher mileages. There's a lot of fatigue in
running 140 at age 54, so I'd do 14 to 17 miles in the first
run, and it was psychologically easier.

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posted Apr-06-2007 12:15 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by TheProFromDover:

Run til you puke.
-CASgggggggggggg

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.

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posted Apr-06-2007 12:16 PM            

I will give it much thought.

Ilene

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posted Apr-06-2007 12:21 PM            

Great workout Bob.

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posted Apr-06-2007 12:24 PM            

9 miles, 25F and some snow flakes.

I thought about pushing for 90 for the week.

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posted Apr-06-2007 12:33 PM            

"When we have gone through all this, I make all my runners sprint in sprint races at a club level, even in the handicap sprints. Distance runners hate sprinting because they think they look like fools, but if you want to be fast, you’ve got to sprint. I’ve taken three and six minutes off the marathon runners times; one man from 2:15 to 2:12 by working on his actual speed. Speed development is important to marathon runners as well as track runners. So every week, 52 weeks a year, runners should be doing something about their speed, conditioning for it, working on technique, and generally working on their speed."

It is important to see here that he is talking about the mechanical aspects of speed, as opposed to simple anaerobic workouts. Fast strides within training runs are useful for rapid leg turnover and good form for speed. And in the final phases of training, some very short workouts, after a long warmup and gradual building of speed, are useful (100 to 200 meters). Fred and Joe seem always to have portions of their work sessions that emphasize rapid leg turnover in good form, or all-out speed. The danger of it is in telling a runner he must work on his speed and not having him know what kind of speed you mean. Spareribs

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posted Apr-06-2007 12:42 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Spareribs:
Lydiard on the development of speed in his athletes:

"When we have gone through all this, I make all my runners sprint in sprint races at a club level, even in the handicap sprints. Distance runners hate sprinting because they think they look like fools, but if you want to be fast, you’ve got to sprint. I’ve taken three and six minutes off the marathon runners times; one man from 2:15 to 2:12 by working on his actual speed. Speed development is important to marathon runners as well as track runners. So every week, 52 weeks a year, runners should be doing something about their speed, conditioning for it, working on technique, and generally working on their speed."

It is important to see here that he is talking about the mechanical aspects of speed, as opposed to simple anaerobic workouts. Fast strides within training runs are useful for rapid leg turnover and good form for speed. And in the final phases of training, some very short workouts, after a long warmup and gradual building of speed, are useful (100 to 200 meters). Fred and Joe seem always to have portions of their work sessions that emphasize rapid leg turnover in good form, or all-out speed. The danger of it is in telling a runner he must work on his speed and not having him know what kind of speed you mean. Spareribs

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I don't run sprints at 100% since I strained my hamstring
last fall doing that. It was a good learning experience.

There are people on my indoor track running workouts at
100%, and it's just a matter of time before they strain
something.

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posted Apr-06-2007 01:27 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by fredurie:
I don't run sprints at 100% since I strained my hamstring
last fall doing that. It was a good learning experience.

There are people on my indoor track running workouts at
100%, and it's just a matter of time before they strain
something.

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Yes, and this is why the word "speed" is dangerous unless someone knows what can and cannot be done. Also why I mentioned strides as excellent for mechanical efficiency without running dangerously all-out since strides are done in the middle of workouts, are not at max speed and don't generally have an explosive pickup as in a sprint. Good point Fred. Spareribs

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posted Apr-06-2007 03:44 PM            

Thought I'd post a quick question about long runs within 6 weeks of my marathon (5/13). I have a 21-miler tomorrow.

How fast should these be run at? If my MP is about 9:00min/mi should I be planning on doing all of it or just a portion at MP, or 60-90 sec slower than MP or some other variation?

I'm following your earlier advice and have started to ramp up mileage to 40-45 mpw in April (from 35-40) with LRs of 21/15/21/15 before tapering (after last weekend's 15).

Thanks for your help.
PJ

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posted Apr-06-2007 04:12 PM            

I living the high life over at Let'sRun.com talking to Henry Rono along with a thousand other runners. We're a really tight group

Always dangerous posting over there. There always some wanna be stud runner up in the sun waiting for you to fly by so they can dive on you and shoot you up.

Actually Rono seems like a decent guy. I sense as he comes back and gets faster he'll garner more attention and might actually be able to make some money off all of this. His recent 5K in 17:48 at age 55 says he has some runway given that he is about 20-25 lbs over his competitive weight. He is 5'8" and wants to get down to 140 lbs. Same height and weight as me. He might break 17 if he keeps going like this and doesn't get injured.

Talent usually wins out.

Raider

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posted Apr-06-2007 07:49 PM            

A second point. On many sites it's not about training, development and racing; it's more "I know and you don't know" or "it's not enough that I win; you have to lose." I don't enjoy those sites, all ego and no sharing or learning.

In "letsrun" if a serious training question comes up, there is some helpful content and dialog from interested runners. I admit to being a big Tinman fan, who influences my running today (If you ask me who my coach is, I will say, "his first words were 'oil can' if you recall the movie).

My ideal site would be one in which there are some people with subject matter expertise, some with great running experience and success, and others who are serious about doing better and running as well as they can who simply want to learn.

I am seeing the evolution of this site as the superior place to go to for runners trying to do better. Some enterprising and interested runner ought to start one for 40+ here called "Running, Training and Racing Only". Spareribs

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posted Apr-06-2007 08:14 PM            

We speak with one voice.

I like Let'sRun because I can research past forums by subject but can whiz by the outright attacks. By the way, these folks enjoy the anonymity of email or on-line forum because it gives them permission to say that which they would not say face to face. Sometimes that is good and sometimes that is not so good.

I like the fact that I can find out what Rono, Whitlock and others are really doing. I also get to hear from people I remember from the old days. Many of them attend these forums and participate.

But I mostly post here because the particpants are just friendlier.

By the way, I bet Fred knows who Rono is and my guess is that Jim does too.

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posted Apr-06-2007 08:22 PM               

Mr. Bob has done “only” 10 marathons (jeepers)
Mr. Ribs has sock puppets
Mr. Fred likes LSD and could do 100 of them but won’t
Mr. Pro is in Euphies sock drawer and wants us to “run till you puke”
Ilene is an old grey mare (or has an old grey mare) and DH wants to be in Ilene’s drawers….did I get that all right???

You serious guys make me laugh till it hurts.

But amongst all that was some darn good running talk and like Euphie, it takes me a while to absorb it all and there is still a lot that I don’t understand. But just in case you guys don’t know, you are my running heros. I have learned sooooo much. And now, I will bore you to death with what this rookie thinks.

After my race on Sunday and my recovery run on Monday I could not run again until tonight because I was just too wiped out. Physically I was drained. And this has happened before when I run too fast. I love it when I am doing it, but it costs me too much.

I think that I am not 1) trained enough to add much speed (20-25 mpw for the last month), and 2) I think that I am just not “built” for speed because I am always getting injured when I try and go faster (even a little faster).

The problem that I have is that when I am running (like in Sundays race) it does not hurt, it feels good. I know somewhere in that pea brain of mine, that going faster is not good for me, but because it doesn’t hurt when I am running, I don’t stop.

So, I am going to try and remember that slow and steady is my mantra. At least until I can put the miles in. If I keep it at a 12:00-13 m/m pace, I can (and would) run for hours. I am not trying for any hardware at the races (although a new pair of sneaks would be nice). I just like to gather with a bunch of other runners and run without the hassle of traffic and with the comfort of race day support. If I didn’t have to work, I would run 2 or 3 hours a day at my snails pace, but alas I must do something to pay for those fancy running duds and gadgets.

Now for tonights run info.

Friday
4.11 miles in 52:23 for an avg pace of 12:45 m/m

Mile 1: 12:52
Mile 2: 12:53
Mile 3: 12:34
Mile 4: 12:41

And not a tourist knocked down although it was tempting a couple of times. .

I plan on doing a similar run on Saturday and then on Sunday do 6 miles. Then I will take 2 days off.

Feedback from the old, serious crowd is always welcome (even if it does come from a sock puppet)

Mr. Ribs, have fun at your 5K.

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Running in wellness

Liz

Lizs Profile

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posted Apr-06-2007 10:43 PM               

Last night was thresholds at 15 mins., 10, 5, and 5 on the track, at 5:40 pace.

As to "speed," Repeats are not sprints but fast and controlled. I use a Daniels formula; for me they're about 75/400 and all about form. I think the repeats I've done have helped when I start to feel my form's going, including in other types of speedwork.

I always tell my Club that repeats are great fun because you get to run fast -- who doesn't want to do that? -- and get full recovery. I particularly like them for early-season speedwork and for people just starting speedwork.

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posted Apr-07-2007 12:56 AM            

Way Cool Running
The gathering place for teen runners.
(Running-related topics only please).

http://www.coolrunning.com/cgi-bin/ubb/forumdisplay.cgi?action=topics&forum=Way+Cool+Running&number=21&DaysPrune=20&LastLogin=

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posted Apr-07-2007 10:21 AM            

Canfit asked a question yesterday and I neglected to comment, thinking someone else would. Sorry Canfit, and today is your long run. I hope it works out okay but for future long runs, just consider that the primary objective of the long run in marathon training is endurance and the "time on your feet." If you feel sure you can do this distance at a brisker pace, it would be good to do so, but keep the first objective in mind. You will want to do the entire 21 miles in good steady form, not for example, run miles 3 through 16 at a brisk pace and then stagger through the final 5. Hope it goes well.

Today I ran 6 easy (52 minutes) and felt just fine. That's 50 for the week. Long and quick tomorrow. Spareribs

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posted Apr-07-2007 11:13 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Spareribs:

Canfit asked a question yesterday and I neglected to comment, thinking someone else would. Sorry Canfit, and today is your long run. I hope it works out okay but for future long runs, just consider that the primary objective of the long run in marathon training is endurance and the "time on your feet." If you feel sure you can do this distance at a brisker pace, it would be good to do so, but keep the first objective in mind. You will want to do the entire 21 miles in good steady form, not for example, run miles 3 through 16 at a brisk pace and then stagger through the final 5. Hope it goes well.

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Thanks for your reply. I especially appreciate the "time on your feet" comment.

Just back in ...posted on my run on the other thread. Got through the 21-miler although it was a pretty tough run today. The weather wasn't the greatest and I knew early that I didn't quite have my "A" game. The last 1-2 miles were pretty tough. Running can be very humbling at times. But I do appreciate every day that I can get out there and do it.

The good news is that I was pleased with my HR at 142 although it jumped to 155 the last 2-3 miles.

I have another 21-miler in two weeks with some med to long runs in between. So far so good in April.
PJ

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posted Apr-07-2007 11:54 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Sun Raider:
Ribs

We speak with one voice.

I like Let'sRun because I can research past forums by subject but can whiz by the outright attacks. By the way, these folks enjoy the anonymity of email or on-line forum because it gives them permission to say that which they would not say face to face. Sometimes that is good and sometimes that is not so good.

I like the fact that I can find out what Rono, Whitlock and others are really doing. I also get to hear from people I remember from the old days. Many of them attend these forums and participate.

But I mostly post here because the particpants are just friendlier.

By the way, I bet Fred knows who Rono is and my guess is that Jim does too.

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Henry raced at a 3 mile in Detroit when he had a big belly
and drank a lot.

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posted Apr-07-2007 11:59 AM            

AM 10 miles with the last mile hard, indoor track.

80 for the week.

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posted Apr-07-2007 12:27 PM               

http://www.coolrunning.com/forums/Forum13/HTML/009476.shtml

P.S. if you have a popup blocker you might have to disable to see this

[This message has been edited by Jim24315 (edited Apr-07-2007).]

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posted Apr-07-2007 12:37 PM               

1 mile W/U - 3 @ tempo - 1 mile C/D

Saturday - 3 mile recovery...

I was wondering if anyone wanted to comment on something I read recently.

In a recent issue of Runner's World, they asked Katie McGregor (2005 & 2006 national 10000 meter champ) how her training changed when she decided to run a marathon. (she finished 9th female overall in 2:32:36 at NYC last year)

Her reply, " I run 90 to 100 miles a week for the 10-K. I kept the same distance, but distributed it differently. Instead of breaking 20 miles into two runs, I'd do them all at once. The long runs left my legs feeling heavy, which was tough because during 10-K training I have some spunk in my legs. The long runs, however, do teach you to run hard even when you think you can't."

I wouldn't have thought there'd be that much training difference in breaking down a 20 miler into 2 runs versus 1. Comments?

And because I like to cook, here's a dern good fish recipe that's good for you to boot...

Fried fish in Tomato sauce....

1 onion, sliced into rings
1 green pepper, cut in strips
1 clove garlic, minced (your taste)
1 tbsp. oil
1 (14 oz.) can stewed tomatoes, undrained
1 (8 oz.) can tomato sauce, unsalted
2 tbsp. dry wine
1 tsp. dried sweet basil
1 lb. fish fillets

In skillet, saute onion, green pepper, and garlic in oil until tender. Stir in tomatoes, tomato sauce, wine and basil. Heat to boiling, then reduce heat and cook uncovered about 15 minutes, stirring occasionally. Place fish in tomato mixture. Cover and simmer about 15 minutes or until fish flakes easily with a fork. Yield: 4 servings; serving size: 1 fillet.

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posted Apr-07-2007 12:48 PM               

There is a big difference. I wish I would have understood doubles better when I was younger. I thought they were only for elites. A single 20 is much more difficult than 2 x 10. Although I've run into a little buzz saw with allergies recently, I'd put together back-to-back 62 mile weeks and was feeling good and all runs. The key was a few doubles of 6 + 6 and 6 + 7. It didn't feel any different than doing those 4 runs over a period of 4 days instead of 2. However, 12 and 13 on consecutive days would be tough for me.

With that in mind, it is necessary to do long singles for marathon and even HM. However, you can still do some doubles in between the singles.

[This message has been edited by Jim24315 (edited Apr-07-2007).]

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posted Apr-07-2007 12:55 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Rich in NH:
.

I was wondering if anyone wanted to comment on something I read recently.

In a recent issue of Runner's World, they asked Katie McGregor (2005 & 2006 national 10000 meter champ) how her training changed when she decided to run a marathon. (she finished 9th female overall in 2:32:36 at NYC last year)

Her reply, " I run 90 to 100 miles a week for the 10-K. I kept the same distance, but distributed it differently. Instead of breaking 20 miles into two runs, I'd do them all at once. The long runs left my legs feeling heavy, which was tough because during 10-K training I have some spunk in my legs. The long runs, however, do teach you to run hard even when you think you can't."

I wouldn't have thought there'd be that much training difference in breaking down a 20 miler into 2 runs versus 1. Comments?

.

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Yes, a huge difference.

The 20 miler can leave your legs dead for a couple of days,
and you feel it on the speedwork.

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