posted Apr-05-2007 01:21 AM            

Warning: Short

I can't disagree with anything you said. We're all different. I agree. Just sharing my experiences. I appreciate your points.

Raider

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posted Apr-05-2007 08:52 AM            

One point that you have made over and over Sun, and I wish others would heed it, is the distance work needed to run the marathon successfully, the 63 miles or three times the daily average formula. There may be people out there who are anomalies, but for the most part, that one is a winner. It has always worked for me. Run the miles, have a great race. Cheat a bit, and die at the end.

As to speed in workouts, Jim cited the instance Daws commented on about people trying to emulate Shorter or Ryun. Another interesting one is Amby Burfoot. I believe he won Boston in 68, but he was noted for seldom running faster than 8 minutes a mile during his daily runs. That approach seemed to work for him.

I was thinking the other day about the word "speed." Do you all agree with me that no word is more misused or misunderstood than the word "speed?" By this I mean, someone will tell a runner, "you need to do more speed" or someone will say "I went to the track today to do speedwork" but the difficulty is that there is all kinds of speed. We all must incorporate some form of accelerated work in order to develop the CV system "above the line" (the anaerobic threshold) but it has taken me a lifetime to figure out what speeds, what dosages and what durations the word "speed" means to me, and I suspect most runners still don't have it right.

I have finally learned to have admiration and respect for those super-athlete runners who can get on the track and hammer out 20 x 400 at some blazing speed. I know I can't do it. I would be injured right there on the track! But what has helped me is finding this happy place where I can run "within myself" and get some form of quality work, without pretending to be the runner I am not. Finally, I see that I don't have to go to the track and have gut-wrenching workouts, but by the same token, I can put lots more quality effort into my runs and I am having fun. (Also, I really am improving, and if I can stay injury-free, I expect a very good year in '07.)

In saying all this, I am not challenging anything that Jim or Sun Raider have said. I simply wanted to add my own perceptions about the subject, as this kind of dialog is a help to all in my opinion. Thanks both of you. Spareribs

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posted Apr-05-2007 10:57 AM            

Very well said. No apologies needed.

Speed work is the probably the most misunderstood term in running. Once when asked what speed work I did for my PR 10K I said that I ran 6 x one mile in under 5 minutes. They asked me how much rest I took and I responded by saying "none". In other words my race was my speed work.
Burfoot's training is outlined here by the way....

http://www.joehenderson.com/lsdbook/

Joe documents a slew of decent runners (many of whom I knew and raced against) who did little or no speedwork.

Raider

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posted Apr-05-2007 11:29 AM            

Talking about speed and how some people can get really manic about it, there is a funny story in one of Lydiard's books in which one of his runners is doing a track workout and a reporter asks Lydiard, "What pace is he doing right now?" Lydiard said, "I don't know." So the reporter said, "Well, how many repeats is he doing?" Lydiard said, "I have no idea. You would have to ask him." So the reporter waited until the runner was finished and asked, "What speed were you doing?" And the runner said, "I don't know. I don't wear a watch." Exasperated, the reporter asked, "Well, how many of them did you do?" and the runner said, "I don't know. I just did them until I got tired."

Wouldn't it be neat if we could all work like that?

Thursday: Was apprehensive about today's run as I ran long yesterday, but did 5.6 mile recovery run on packed dirt, first mile slow then the rest at a nice pace. Feel super. Spareribs

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posted Apr-05-2007 11:29 AM            

I could probably run 100 miles next week, but I don't know if I will.

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posted Apr-05-2007 11:34 AM            

Watching the Hansons guys doing tough interval workouts in January,
February and March, was an eye opener.

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posted Apr-05-2007 11:42 AM            

I ran more than scheduled this week. All miles, except for the long run and hills, were just under 9 minutes and felt easy. That is a little faster than my 5K and 10K times last year. This morning I heard the words I've always wanted to hear from my husband, "You're going too fast.", for the pace we decided to maintain. I tried shortening my stride this week and found it required less effort to maintain a steady pace. I also no longer have the nagging sensation I had at the bottom of my posterior.

I have two weeks until the 5 mile run described as a "challenging five-mile certified course". The second mile seems to be uphill most of the way. This will be my first "real" run away from my local area and the butterflies in my stomach may be the biggest obstacle. I will do an organized trail run the week before. I'm just finishing week 5 of the 12 week beginner HM program. The longest run to date has been 8 miles. I have not missed any runs on the schedule and do yoga for flexibility and core strength on the two "Off" days.

This Tuesday I'm scheduled to do "3 x Mile at 5K-10K pace".
I mentioned to the "Pro" that my pace seems to be almost the same regardless of distance. This week will be a new challenge and I assume I need to run each mile harder and have a short recovery period between them. There is no hill work on this week's schedule. Should I incorporate some into the other runs?

Now to understand the functions of a Garmin.......

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posted Apr-05-2007 12:47 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by fredurie:
Even though I have run high mileage, I am biased towards speed.

Watching the Hansons guys doing tough interval workouts in January, February and March, was an eye opener.

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Fred,

I am biased toward speedwork, too, and I enjoy speedwork more than I enjoy long runs, but I get injured quickly from speedwork.

In his pamphlet Long Slow Distance, Henderson says LSD may not take elite runners to their ultimate potential, but for the rest of us, it's the best way to maximize our potential while minimizing our injury risk.

I overdid LSD a couple of weeks ago, by doing two long runs--long for me--too close together, but I believe that was the fault of my execution, not of the LSD concept itself. I was trying to gear up for a marathon here on base, which I'm not adequately trained for. I knew I wasn't adequately trained for it, so I tried to increase my mileage faster than I should, to play catch-up. It all comes of trying to do what other people want me to do, rather than what I should do. Now I can't shuffle a mile faster than about 9:40--if I weren't injured, I could probably run a mile in the mid-5's.

Over the last few months, my regular routine was running 3 x 10 miles per week, relatively slowly. Once in a while I got nervous, fearing that slow running was making me slow, and I would try a little fast running. I don't think I lost a bit of speed: the LSD just made me stronger.

Dark Horse

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I'm a dark horse, running on a dark race course

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posted Apr-05-2007 12:50 PM            

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posted Apr-05-2007 12:59 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by euphoric:

I ran more than scheduled this week. All miles, except for the long run and hills, were just under 9 minutes and felt easy.

This Tuesday I'm scheduled to do "3 x Mile at 5K-10K pace".
I mentioned to the "Pro" that my pace seems to be almost the same regardless of distance. This week will be a new challenge and I assume I need to run each mile harder and have a short recovery period between them. There is no hill work on this week's schedule. Should I incorporate some into the other runs?

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Euphoric, you are doing very well and there has been significant improvement in your pace, your mileage buildup and in your overall health, absence of injury.

It is too bad that these fixed programs do not provide you with more detail on what to do. They do tend to leave people in the dark about pace, recovery etc. Here are some thoughts and I hope other wiser folks will join in.

First, you know that you are running your daily runs a bit faster now as you say above, so you should first determine a reasonable fiveK to tenK pace for you that would be achievable; a pace that has a bit more energy in it but that you could hold. Does 8:30 per mile seem about right? You decide.

Second, don't assume that you do each mile faster. In a workout like this you just want to achieve the target pace. Beating the pace does not make it a better workout. You are just training now. So run each mile at the same target pace. If you could do this workout on a local track it will give you a big advantage in feedback regarding pace and distance because it is exact.

Third, you want to consider the type and duration of your recovery. My suggestion is an easy jog of one lap around the track between each, say 400 meters. Try that out for starters. Poor would be just standing around between each, and I think 200 meters might not be enough. Certainly if you could do them with a 200 jog recovery that would be a good thing to work up to, but for a mile session, 400 should be okay for you.

Fourth, if there are no hills scheduled in your week, there is probably a reason. Perhaps there is other hard work in that week or it's a cutback week. I don't know without seeing your plan, but I will say that on any day where you are feeling fresh and you want to incorporate some running up hills it is remarkably good for your development. Look to see why you think there are no hills this week. What else is going on?

And finally, you mentioned the Pro gave you some feedback here. He is as competent to do this as anyone I know, so if you want his comments here as well I will go fetch him for you now. He is having a busy day at work he tells me, but I assume he will post by tomorrow. Spareribs

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posted Apr-05-2007 01:08 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Spareribs:
you mentioned the Pro gave you some feedback here. He is as competent to do this as anyone I know, so if you want his comments here as well I will go fetch him for you now. He is having a busy day at work he tells me, but I assume he will post by tomorrow.

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Is it just me, or does the Pro sound like a sock puppet that Spareribs keeps in his dresser drawer?

Dark Horse

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I'm a dark horse, running on a dark race course

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posted Apr-05-2007 01:24 PM            

Last year, when I was training hard for my marathon, I averaged probably between 55 and 70 miles a week for the last 4 or 5 months before tapering. 70 seemed too much for me time-wise given my slow speed. It took too many hours a week. But I persisted where the plan called for it.

Many of my local running club members thought I was nuts (and still do for that matter) to run that many miles. No one ran as much as I did, even the good marathoners in the club. But I just somehow knew (or at least it seemed to make sense to me) that one can't run a good marathon without really putting in the miles.

Thanks for making me feel not so nuts.

Bill

PS: Spareribs, people miss you on the daily thread, but I can understand why you may no longer do so ...

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posted Apr-05-2007 01:59 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by fredurie:
Tuesday - 13 miles
Wednesday - 13 miles
Thursday - 13 miles

I could probably run 100 miles next week, but I don't know if I will.

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Are these all singles? How often do you use doubles when running 100+ miles?

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posted Apr-05-2007 02:06 PM               

In reference to the mileage base I have certainly found that I have to put in the miles with a fairly good portion of those miles being “quality miles” to be successful at the marathon. But once again I am still learning and will be completing only my 10th marathon at Boston next week. I tend to agree that we are all so different and that what works for one may not necessarily work for you, but it is always good to hear what is out there and try different techniques.

Well I woke up this morning at about 3:00 as I heard our phones beep as the power briefly came back on and then saw a huge flash outside as a transformer blew and we lost power for good (got it back at 10:30 this morning according to DW). So I ended up getting up and going outside to clean up the 13 to 14 inches of fresh wet and heavy spring snow we had received over night.

I then ended up going to the gym (I really dread the treadmill this time of year and thought I was done with it until next fall) for my run today so that I could take a shower before heading into work which was an absolute zoo!

Thursday’s run (Ribs I really liked the way your “wave” looked and thought it would work good for me on some of my training runs, so I figured I would give it a try today under controlled circumstances (treadmill): 9.02 Miles 1:11:17 (7:54)

I did a nice comfortable warm up mile then alternated each mile:

Warm up - 8:58
Approximate Marathon Pace - 7:35
Easy - 8:52
Approximate HM Pace - 6:56
Easy - 8:52
Approximate 5K Pace - 6:28
Easy - 8:50
Sub 6 mile - 5:59 just wanted to see if I could hold it together after 7 miles – did it!
Warm down - 8:47

After Boston I have a couple of 5K’s and a 5 miler that I really want to work on. I know that I have a chance at placing in my age group especially in the Law Enforcement category. Plus I would like to start working on getting my times down in those shorter distances anyways.

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posted Apr-05-2007 02:41 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by bobscamman:
But once again I am still learning and will be completing only my 10th marathon at Boston next week. I

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Bob,

I love your enthusiasm, but you say "ONLY my 10th marathon" ? That's a lot of marathons for someone who just started running in 2003.
Not than anyone should run as few as I have, but in 29 years I've completed 7 of them. I'm not so sure that I'd be still running at 61 had I run them at the rate many of you are.

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posted Apr-05-2007 02:58 PM            

http://www.coolrunning.com/engine/2/2_4/134.shtml

I'll use the track this week and try for an 8:30 mile. I'll buy the beer it happens. I hope you all have a great Easter weekend and I'll check in Tuesday after I do those timed miles.

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posted Apr-05-2007 05:54 PM               

6 miles easy. It's time to toss the shoes I ran in today, my legs are sore and I'm blaming the shoes. I'm hoping the 556 miles on 'em is the culprit...

Bob, you've got to love N.E.'s weather, who else gets a foot of snow in April...

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posted Apr-05-2007 06:36 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by Spareribs:

One point that you have made over and over Sun, and I wish others would heed it, is the distance work needed to run the marathon successfully, the 63 miles or three times the daily average formula. There may be people out there who are anomalies, but for the most part, that one is a winner. It has always worked for me. Run the miles, have a great race. Cheat a bit, and die at the end.

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<tiptoeing in> Are you saying that to successfully run a marathon, your average weekly mileage should be 63 miles? I have never heard of the 3X the daily average formula. Do you mind clarifying? <tiptoeing back out>

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posted Apr-05-2007 06:51 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by cajohnson5:
<tiptoeing in> Are you saying that to successfully run a marathon, your average weekly mileage should be 63 miles? I have never heard of the 3X the daily average formula. Do you mind clarifying? <tiptoeing back out>

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Cheryl,

Ah, some of these starchy old guys think life is governed by rules instead of vice-versa.

It's highly unlikely there is a cut-and-dried rule like this that leads to optimum success for everyone.

To answer your question, it's all a matter of how you define running a marathon "successfully." Tetsujin runs marathons on a base of close to zero miles a week, he has fun, and I would judge his experiences to be mostly "successful."

But let these guys discuss and debate. It's entertaining to read, in spite of the abuse Spareribs heaps upon me, and once in a while I learn something from people like Sun Raider.

Dark Horse

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I'm a dark horse, running on a dark race course

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posted Apr-05-2007 08:05 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by cajohnson5:
<tiptoeing in> Are you saying that to successfully run a marathon, your average weekly mileage should be 63 miles? I have never heard of the 3X the daily average formula. Do you mind clarifying? <tiptoeing back out>

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Well cajohnson, I see Dark Horse has answered your question. Tiptoe back on out now. Just kidding. Hard to tell the cretins from the runners. I have responded to you privately. Spareribs

[This message has been edited by Spareribs (edited Apr-05-2007).]

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posted Apr-05-2007 09:05 PM               

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posted Apr-05-2007 09:34 PM               

Having gone into the Daniels' Running Formula -- and there are comparable programs that make the same distinctions, including a triathlon book I have (not for me but so I can understand the bi/tri guys in my Club) -- I've been able to distinguish the types of speed work and the different paces, and I've tried to get my Club members to understand as well. The mantra is to always know why you do a particular workout.

I also think that I learned much from my marathon experience of 2006 (and hope to develop a slightly better plan for my Club this year), and have come around to the view that you need mileage, threshold runs, and some long MP workouts. I don't know about the need for doing 10Ks and wonder about missing some long runs because of a 10K race, not about the benefit of an occasional run at that distance, from which recovery is easy if you have a base. But around me, at least, there aren't a lot of 10Ks any more. 5 milers are much more common.

As to how good you are, I'm a believer in using age-graded tables because they allow a runner, particularly as they age, to have a frame of reference across the years and across distances. So if someone has a 70%, I want her to aim to have that at all distances and, better, see if she can get it to 71. Our Club results page automatically provides that info.

Finally, in 1983, I ran a 2:29:13 in my debut and only other completed marathon, but while I have a general notion of what training I did, such as that my maximum mileage was 84, I did not do a lot of 20 milers, and I did twice a week interval work of varying distances and often on hills, I don't remember the specifics.

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posted Apr-06-2007 07:58 AM               

quote:

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Originally posted by Spareribs:

One point that you have made over and over Sun, and I wish others would heed it, is the distance work needed to run the marathon successfully, the 63 miles or three times the daily average formula. There may be people out there who are anomalies, but for the most part, that one is a winner. It has always worked for me. Run the miles, have a great race. Cheat a bit, and die at the end.

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Received your note and appreciated the additional insight. Can anyone please suggest reading material that follows this concept, or steer me in the direction of an on-line training schedule? Based on recommendations on this site, I did order Daws Running Your Best, but am unaware if it contains any schedules. Thanks. cj

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posted Apr-06-2007 08:29 AM            

Also, if you want to see more citations or references to the three times daily average metric, go to Google and type in: marathon three times daily average. You will see all sorts of articles that discuss it. Spareribs

[This message has been edited by Spareribs (edited Apr-06-2007).]

[This message has been edited by Spareribs (edited Apr-06-2007).]

[This message has been edited by Spareribs (edited Apr-06-2007).]

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posted Apr-06-2007 09:19 AM               

6.05 miles with a goal pace at about one minute slower than marathon pace of 7:38

52:10 - (8:37)

Avg HR 131 / Max HR 139

I'm off to stuff some race packets for the Boston Marathon today so I won't be on-line until later this evening or early tomorrow morning, see ya!

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