posted Apr-02-2007 02:32 PM               

...is that what your trying to say DH?

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posted Apr-02-2007 03:07 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by Dark Horse:
Raider,

I suggest "Richard Bobick."

Dark Horse

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You are clever, Dark Horse (and funny). That one made laugh out loud.

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posted Apr-02-2007 03:15 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by fredurie:
1 Nolan Shaheed 16:32 - his mile time is around 4:40
2 Henry Rono 17:48 - his mile time is around 5:31

Any conclusions?

Rono was up to 3 hours a day at 6,000 feet altitude = aerobic stimulus.

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A very interesting question that I want to come back to. I could write many paragraphs. This story has really captivated me. What an amazing man. I guess my 18:40 was slightly off the mark. After you brought to the altitude to may attention, I thought that I might have sold him short, but never by this much. Need to go run, but will say more later.

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posted Apr-02-2007 03:25 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Jim24315:
You are clever, Dark Horse

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I wish being clever paid better.

Dark Horse

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I'm a dark horse, running on a dark race course

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posted Apr-02-2007 04:03 PM            

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posted Apr-02-2007 04:55 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by euphoric:
Just for the record, I'm not gray.

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Heck, I am!

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posted Apr-02-2007 05:03 PM               

I'm still waiting on "Self-Made Olympian", btw. They confirmed my order on 3/22 and said 5 days. Maybe that was a typo too.

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posted Apr-02-2007 05:51 PM            

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posted Apr-02-2007 05:51 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by euphoric:
Just for the record, I'm not gray.

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Not that there's anything wrong with that.

Dark Horse

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I'm a dark horse, running on a dark race course

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posted Apr-02-2007 08:15 PM               

3.09 mile recovery run in 38.20 for an avg. 12:23 m/m I am glad I did not have to run any longer. Right leg is weaker than left and a bit achy on this run so I will take it easy this week.

Kept it pretty even. 12:47, 12:20, 12:11

Thanks to everyone here the CUCB 10 miler was the first race in a very long time I have been able to complete without being sidelined for months due to ITB issue. The concept of this slow runner running slower was hard to grasp but you helped me to see that I needed to do that if I was going to continue to run.

Warm fuzzies to all of you.

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posted Apr-02-2007 08:51 PM               

a.m. 5.75 miles with group 7:58 avg.
p.m. 6.0 miles w/ w.u. 6X800 and c.d. goal was to run 3:07's or better with 1 lap recovery.
3:03, 2:59,3:02, :04, :06, 2:55

Windy and no one else to share the work with.

ksrunr
drinking the wind

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posted Apr-03-2007 04:51 AM               

Liz that was a good job on your part, this group really does help doesn't it...even if we are a bunch of old farts!

Monday - recovery run - 35 degrees and rainy

3.01 miles slow and steady

8:59 , 8:42, 8:14, :07

Avg HR 128 Max HR 141

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posted Apr-03-2007 07:42 AM               

quote:

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Originally posted by fredurie:
1 Nolan Shaheed 16:32 - his mile time is around 4:40
2 Henry Rono 17:48 - his mile time is around 5:31

Any conclusions?

Rono was up to 3 hours a day at 6,000 feet altitude = aerobic stimulus.

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Rono has a better chance of catching up to Shaheed at 5000 than he does a the mile. That stands to reason since Henry set all his world records at distances between 3k and 10k. Shaheed’s best distances are 800 through Mile.

The altitude training figured to make Rono very strong aerobically and it did.

Training 3 hours a day at altitude without getting injured, while overweight and 55 years old, requires superior talent and mental toughness.

When Henry Rono puts on a number he takes on the heart of a lion. You can throw out the charts when trying to figure out what a great competitor will do on race day based on training times.

Rono should set his sights on 3k-10k records rather than the mile.

Nolan Shaheed is still “The Man” in the 55+ division. While Henry’s race is an indication that he has a chance to catch him at 5000, it’s going to take a while and a lot will have to go right for him. Shaheed’s *mile record is probably safe.

Edited to add:
* latest charts I can find say that Shaheed holds 50-54 mile WR but not 55-59. He holds American indoor rec at mile and 3000.

[This message has been edited by Jim24315 (edited Apr-03-2007).]

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posted Apr-03-2007 07:59 AM            

Hills today. I met a friend along the way and did about 30 minutes of looping two hills for a total of an hour on the road. I was a little stiff going out the door, but felt great at the end if not in the end.

Liz, I loved reading the race report. It was good to hear that the pain was gone and the last two miles were so good.

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posted Apr-03-2007 10:32 AM            

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posted Apr-03-2007 04:22 PM            

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posted Apr-03-2007 04:51 PM               

6.03 Miles Progressive

8:48, 8:30, 8:26, 8:15, 7:55, 7:20, :13

Avg HR 132 / Max HR 149

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posted Apr-04-2007 12:45 PM            

Euporic, good to see you doing hill work. It's good for you.

Wednesday: 14-mile wave run at the lake, hilly and windy today and I went into it tired, but in the middle miles did 2 @ MP and 3 @ HMP each with an easy mile afterward. Tried to focus on smooth and steady and less looking at my watch. Times were 7:58, 7:49, 7:32, 7:31, 7:19. Full exercise set afterwards. I think I hate the wind even more than Meg. Spareribs

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posted Apr-04-2007 02:35 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by Spareribs:
Bob, that is a perfect progression run. Did you cheat as you went, looking at your Garmin and adjusting? I sometimes do that on my home course that is marked every quarter. Tried not to do it today as you see below.

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Ribs - Thanks for the compliment, I guess it depends on what you call "cheating". I did use my Garmin but only to let me know when I hit my laps which I pretty much know anyways and to let me know what my last lap time was. Other than that I didn't use the Garmin to adjust as I was running each mile, something I really don't do anyways, I have gotten much better at pacing over the last few years and use my Garmin for letting me know what my pace was on the last lap and for stats after my runs.

By the way that was a pretty good run of your own you had there. Hows the leg feeling? And you know, I really hate the wind too!

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posted Apr-04-2007 03:30 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by bobscamman:
Other than that I didn't use the Garmin to adjust as I was running each mile, something I really don't do anyways, I have gotten much better at pacing over the last few years and use my Garmin for letting me know what my pace was on the last lap and for stats after my runs.

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In that case your run was even better. By cheating, I meant you get to say the 3/4 mark of a given mile and find yourself a few seconds behind goal pace, so you pick it up a notch. You are running quite well if you are doing this by feel. Today was the first long run of this type where I didn't peek. Spareribs

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posted Apr-04-2007 04:38 PM               

Pretty relaxed throughout, although these were a bit quick, and uneven.

Ribs, what's a "wave run."

As for me, I tend to run pretty even paces, so I don't make adjustments even though I can't resist peeking at my watch/Garmin frequently. I think anxiety on that score is one reason I like to do tempo/threshold runs on the track. But now that I have the Garmin I plan on doing more of them on trails (and was able to do some on the roads when the tracks were snowed in).

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posted Apr-04-2007 05:21 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by jpgarland:
[B]

Ribs, what's a "wave run."

B]

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It is a long run in which the quality miles you do are interspersed with easy ones. I warmed up 3 miles, then ran:

MP one mile
Easy one mile
MP one mile
Easy one mile
HMP one mile
Easy one mile
HMP one mile
Easy one mile
HMP one mile

Then cooldown a couple. The reason I like this run is that it gives me both nice distance, some quality miles, and lots of recovery. On each of my long runs of 13-16 miles, I try to put some quality portion in the middle, such as tempo, progression, or in this case the wave approach. I love this workout, and the next day I feel pretty good too.

Incidentally, I liked that idea of the track workout where you draw out the workout from a hat or something. Any track repeats can be tough after a while and it's fun if someone has imagination and tries to make it fun for the others.

I have done "best poker hand" a few times with my group, where you give each runner one card every lap in a five mile run. Best hand at the end wins. No trading cards! Spareribs

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posted Apr-04-2007 07:53 PM               

5.02 miles - 43:48 - (8:44)

I really thought we might be done with this crap for the year, but good old New England weather holds true again.

Well as long as it warms up a little for Boston and we don't get snow, rain would be bad enough but this stuff would be really tough to deal with.

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posted Apr-04-2007 09:29 PM            

The most valuable runs for me when I was trying to run my fastest marathon were pretty simple.

1. Bringing down my 5K and 10K times. As I got faster at these distances my marathon pace got faster.

2. Running enough miles. To have the collapse point to run 26.2 miles a runner has to average at least 9 miles a day over a week, week after week for months or years . So no big buildups. Just running 63 mpw all year round with few exceptions. Because I ran close to 80 mpw during my marathon phase, I was more than strong enough to cover the distance. So no wall. I did slow down in the last few miles but I never really hit the wall. I had enough stored adaptive energy to make it 26.2 miles and the some.

3. Because I wanted to break 2:30 I often ran shorter continuous runs at that pace. They were often no more than 7 or 8 miles but I did them regularly to "map" or imprint the effort into my running brain (wherever that was..lol). I would often run races over longer distances at marathon race pace. 10 miles or 20K were the most popular longer races back in the day. HM's were rare but sometimes I would run a marathon and go to the 10 or 15 mile point at a 2:30 pace to get the feel of the effort.

The critical issue for me was that I could run shorter races that said that I could run a sub 2:30 marathon. Over 1970 and 1971 I worked at getting my miles up there so I was strong enough and also working down my race times until all systems said sub 2:30. It wasn't necessary for me to run a whole bunch of marathons to know I could cover the distance. The marathon was the end product but I had to know I could run a sub 32 minute 10K regularly. Once I could do that, I ran sub 2:30.

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posted Apr-04-2007 11:39 PM               

Warning--LONG:

It is apparent that you have figured out long ago what makes you tick. Your results are a testimony to that. The best way to measure any approach is by the results it produces. This doesn’t necessarily mean net times either—some runners simply have more natural ability than others. It’s how much a runner gets out of his or her natural ability that counts. For those who haven’t been running for an extremely long time like some of us, the best gauge is improvement. If there is steady improvement, then it’s reasonable to assume that the training is working. For an older runner who has been at it a long time and actual PR’s are impossible, it’s how much success that runner is having at “slowing the slip” that is the determing factor. Although you, for one, are not crazy about age grading, I can’t think of a better way to measure this slowing of the slip. Some good minds have come up with this system, and a huge amount of data has been used in the process. In my opinion it works.

I just got my copy of Ron Daws’ “Self-Made Olympian” yesterday and came across this in the Foreward. He says:

“A pitfall for too many runners is adopting the training schedule of a world-class athlete without considering that the program which authors world records for one may destroy another.”
“I don’t go an a season, “ Frank Shorter has said. “I don’t have build ups and cross-country seasons and speed seasons. Maybe it’s my detriment, but is seems I have functioned best when I do it this way…all the time.”

“Frank knows what makes him go. But as lemmings march to the sea, Shorter emulators will follow his approach without considering that, unless they’re pretty much like him, it probably won’t work.

Some years ago, I saw an advertisement offering detailed accounts of Jim Ryun’s workouts. Presumably, if the aspiring high school miler duplicated the runs, he would be on his way down the yellow brick road to the four-minute mile. However, a blind-faith adoption of another runner’s workouts is, at best, risky. Although two runners may be capable of the same times at six miles or a marathon, their training (while based on the same principles) should not necessarily follow the same schedule.”

The keys to your approach that you have outlined above are logical, and at least parts of it would work for many runners, including myself. Actually, the only one that you don’t particular care for that have given me results I’ve been satisfied with has been alternating paces such as the wave runs Ribs has been using, as well as fartleks and intervals. As I review my logs it I can see that these types of workouts have had a hand in most of the periods where I’ve seen the greatest improvement.

The point that you continue to make, #1 about dropping 5k/10k times leading to faster marathon pace, is one that I particularly like. However, judging by most of the responses I’ve gotten when saying pretty much the same thing, it is a very hard sell. Everyone wants to use only 20k’s, 30k’s and half marathons as preps for marathons and I can understand the reasoning. It seems so logical. While there’s certainly nothing wrong with running one or two of those once in a while, I believe that 10k’s, especially, can work just as well and have some advantages. The great majority of runners who can run a fast 10k can run a fast marathon if they put in the miles. One important advantage is that you can run 10k’s more often and they don’t force you to alter your training as much as with longer races and all the tapering and recovering that comes with them. Also, your 10k times can give you a great benchmark as to where you are at with your training. If you are doing your long training runs, 10k times will project out accurately to the marathon. They are great for raising lactic threshold too. Apparently Paula Radciffe and Al Salazar, to name a couple, feel the same way.

I

[This message has been edited by Jim24315 (edited Apr-04-2007).]

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