posted Oct-13-2006 01:29 PM               

The Islamic world really needs to drop their antiquated ways and come up to the modern times. Mohammad isn't raiding caravans anymore.

Ok continue on.

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posted Oct-13-2006 01:48 PM               

God's curse upon you Lord John Russell
May your blackhearted soul rot in hell
There's no love left on earth
And god is dead in heaven
In the dark and deadly days of Black 47

God's curse upon you Lord Trevalian
May your great Queen Victoria rot in hell
'Til England and its Empire
Answer before heaven
For the crimes they committed in Black 47

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posted Oct-13-2006 02:05 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by grimupnorth:

I was aware that Dervin was a survivor of the attacks, Ray. I'm sure you are mentioning for good, reason, though - to let me know in case I was unaware, and I appreciate that. Genuinely. And, FWIW, I possess both (a) and (b) myself, but would say 'a healthy distrust' rather than 'an extreme distrust' (but then I would say that, of course). But the question is, whether I should (a) therefore not respond, or (b) temper my response. In all honesty, I think Dervin would expect neither. I've questioned what Dervin has said when Dervin has said things I have disagreed with, that's all. I haven't, I feel, personally attacked him, or been aggressive in a way which was not commensurate with the tenor of his own responses.

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Thank you for your response. Since I don't know your history as well as I do Dervin's from reading this board, it's helpful to me to weigh the interplay between you two in light of your personal lives as well as the greater geopolitical issues affecting us all.

As is said, "The personal is the political", which is at the core of discussion. If people would just stop trying to make political hay (hmmm...hay = straw???...hmmm...) out of every opinion someone expresses and just take it for what it's worth, I think the world would be a better place.

Or in the words of Hank Williams, Jr.:

"Why don't you leave them boys
alone and let 'em sing their songs?
You know they're gonna do whatever they want.
If you don't like the way they sing,
who's gonna cast the first stone?
Why don't you leave them boys
alone and let 'em sing their song."

But no...

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posted Oct-13-2006 03:55 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Ray Andrews:
T
As is said, "The [b]personal is the political", which is at the core of discussion. If people would just stop trying to make political hay (hmmm...hay = straw???...hmmm...) out of every opinion someone expresses and just take it for what it's worth, I think the world would be a better place.

[/B]

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I think one of the criticisms of Straw's comments is that he is trying to make political hay. As Iontach suggests, much of what has been said needs to be looked at in light of the impending Labour Party leadership contest.

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posted Oct-13-2006 07:02 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by grimupnorth:
... But then, of course, you don't know anything about my background. I think you have painted me as some stereotype of English middle- or upper-class superiority, or something. This is further from the truth than you can possibly imagine, and believe me, I understand the strong feelings that occur when you feel a working-class culture is being denigrated due to someone's sense of innate superiority. It is perhaps the one topic that riles me more than anything else, for a variety of reasons.

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Look here Orange-boy, you know why I think you are a prep-school poofter? Because you are acting like one.

You've hijacked your own thread because of your delicate sensibilities. If your parents actually worked for a living you wouldn't be such a p*ssy.

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posted Oct-14-2006 05:40 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Dervin:
Look here Orange-boy, you know why I think you are a prep-school poofter? Because you are acting like one.

You've hijacked your own thread because of your delicate sensibilities. If your parents actually worked for a living you wouldn't be such a p*ssy.

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Anti-homosexual slurs now, Dervin? You're expanding your repertoire.

You are so incredibly far from the truth that it's laughable, Dervin.

I have no idea where you get this idea from. Unless, that is, that you think anyone who questions some of the stuff you have spouted must be a 'prep-school poofter'.

You certainly have no idea about my family.

You would not believe the number of times I have been in situations where it seemed attractive to respond to others' prejudices in the way that you have just done. The stereotype you are imposing on me is just that - a stereotype - but I've met a few people who come very close to conforming to that stereotype, and I've been on the receiving end of some of their prejudice.

If I were to swear at you, or respond with a racist joke of my own, would you respect me a little more, feel a little more comfortable because I'm not acting like one of 'them'?

Shall we swap tales of social disadvantage, of poor upbringings, of working-class experiences? Or would that be just a little bit juvenile? There's a handy Monty Python sketch we could just reproduce to save ourselves some time.

The truth is, Dervin, that my situation is a pretty unusual one, and one which has allowed me, for better or worse, to see both sides of the class divide in this country. I know where I feel I belong, where I feel most comfortable. But that doesn't mean you can't exercise some independent thought. By holding yourself up as a representative of a certain culture and putting forward the racist jokes and muddy thinking as attributes of that culture, you are doing a huge disservice to that culture.

I can almost picture the stereotype you have made me into. I think I've met him/her. I spent some time in a place that some still think is only meant for the stereotype you are talking of. Maybe the person you are thinking of is the person who told me on my first day that I wasn't "good blood." Maybe the person you are thinking of is the person who, when told what my Dad did for a living, suggested he come and visit because he'd "just done a big sh!t and we need a tradesman to come and unblock the toilet."

If you look at England and you see 'prep-school poofter' as a fair representation if the entire country, then you've never been in my neck of the woods. But you're most welcome.

[This message has been edited by grimupnorth (edited Oct-14-2006).]

[This message has been edited by grimupnorth (edited Oct-14-2006).]

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posted Oct-14-2006 05:58 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by grimupnorth:
Anti-homosexual slurs now, Dervin? You're expanding your repertoire.

You are so incredibly far from the truth that it's laughable, Dervin.

I have no idea where you get this idea from. Unless, that is, that you think anyone who questions some of the stuff you have spouted must be a 'prep-school poofter'.

You certainly have no idea about my family.

You would not believe the number of times I have been in situations where it seemed attractive to respond to others' prejudices in the way that you have just done. The stereotype you are imposing on me is just that - a stereotype - but I've met a few people who come very close to conforming to that stereotype, and I've been on the receiving end of some of their prejudice.

If I were to swear at you, or respond with a racist joke of my own, would you respect me a little more, feel a little more comfortable because I'm not acting like one of 'them'?

Shall we swap tales of social disadvantage, of poor upbringings, of working-class experiences? Or would that be just a little bit juvenile? There's a handy Monty Python sketch we could just reproduce to save ourselves some time.

The truth is, Dervin, that my situation is a pretty unusual one, and one which has allowed me, for better or worse, to see both sides of the class divide in this country. I know where I feel I belong, where I feel most comfortable. But that doesn't mean you can't exercise some independent thought. By holding yourself up as a representative of a certain culture and putting forward the racist jokes and muddy thinking as attributes of that culture, you are doing a huge disservice to that culture.

I can almost picture the stereotype you have made me into. I think I've met him/her. I spent some time in a place that some still think is only meant for the stereotype you are talking of. Maybe the person you are thinking of is the person who told me on my first day that I wasn't "good blood." Maybe the person you are thinking of is the person who, when told what my Dad did for a living, suggested he come and visit because "he'd just done a big sh!t and we need a tradesman to come and unblock the toilet."

If you look at England and you see 'prep-school poofter' as a fair representation if the entire country, then you've never been in my neck of the woods. But you're most welcome.

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I look at some guy who's been going on for about 6 pages and dozens of paragraphs over a few off-colour jokes. You ignore my use of Berger and Luckman. You ignore the evidence I put forth to support England's role in the genocide of the Irish people. And you just keep on complaining about inconsequential stuff.

As Bill once said:
The lady doth protest too much, methinks.

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posted Oct-14-2006 06:09 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Dervin:

As Bill once said:
The lady doth protest too much, methinks.

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How dare you call him 'Bill'? You make him sound soooo working-class. He wasn't meant to be read or watched by the likes of us, you know. He's just for the posh people - we need to stick to watching the performing bears next door.

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posted Oct-14-2006 08:14 AM               

I watch grimupnorth and Dervin in a somewhat one sided mud slinging contest, and I pause to reflect that Sir William Johnson and other agents of the United Kingdom turned the East Coast Native Americans away from the French, to be pawns in the greater chess game between England and France for conquest of what is now America. Later the English, Irish and Scotts all drove the native people from their homes (later continued by the new colonial government) in a horrific land grab that extended into the late 1800’s, and to a degree, today. A determined policy of genocide against Native Americans that rivals the 8 million Jews killed in WWII, yet is covered up in American History Books. I am willing to wager that school children know all about the 8 million Jews murdered, yet know nothing of the millions of Native Americans murdered by the American Government.

Dervin, my friend…I have little love for the English with their treatment of the Scotts, Irish and Native Americans, yet the time of these ancient struggles has past, and the participants long in their graves. It may be far more productive to channel that dislike in a positive manner, and continue to support the freedom of Scotland and Ireland from the yoke of English tyranny, and to push for the fair treatment of Native Americans on reservations and the return of their traditional lands where possible.

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posted Oct-14-2006 09:15 AM               

quote:

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Originally posted by RangerG:
I confess that I am a bit confused. Dervin made some disparaging comments about the Scot's, yet it was the Irish that supported Sir William Wallace against the English. And as Wallace noted, both the Scotts and Irish suffered under the hand of the English. Of course later the English killed Mary Queen of Scotts. Odd that Queen Victoria had a Scottish lover.

I watch grimupnorth and Dervin in a somewhat one sided mud slinging contest, and I pause to reflect that Sir William Johnson and other agents of the United Kingdom turned the East Coast Native Americans away from the French, to be pawns in the greater chess game between England and France for conquest of what is now America. Later the English, Irish and Scotts all drove the native people from their homes (later continued by the new colonial government) in a horrific land grab that extended into the late 1800’s, and to a degree, today. A determined policy of genocide against Native Americans that rivals the 8 million Jews killed in WWII, yet is covered up in American History Books. I am willing to wager that school children know all about the 8 million Jews murdered, yet know nothing of the millions of Native Americans murdered by the American Government.

Dervin, my friend…I have little love for the English with their treatment of the Scotts, Irish and Native Americans, yet the time of these ancient struggles has past, and the participants long in their graves. It may be far more productive to channel that dislike in a positive manner, and continue to support the freedom of Scotland and Ireland from the yoke of English tyranny, and to push for the fair treatment of Native Americans on reservations and the return of their traditional lands where possible.

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Ranger, unlike the genocide-deniers like grimupnorth, Iontach, Faurisson and Leuchter, I have noproblem calling American action against the American Indian genocide and that appropriate reparations should be made.

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posted Oct-14-2006 09:47 AM               

quote:

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Originally posted by RangerG:
Ito support the freedom of Scotland and Ireland from the yoke of English tyranny

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Explain this in 2006, please.

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posted Oct-14-2006 09:50 AM               

quote:

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Originally posted by Iontach:
Explain this in 2006, please.

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And what about Wales?

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posted Oct-14-2006 10:49 AM               

quote:

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Originally posted by Iontach:
Explain this in 2006, please.

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It's like Lyndon LaRouche said back in the early '80's:

The United States is really nothing but a British Protectorate being run by the Drug Lobby, and the Queen of England is the world's Chief Drug Smuggler.

(Now where's my coffee?...)

[This message has been edited by Ray Andrews (edited Oct-14-2006).]

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posted Oct-14-2006 12:48 PM            

Imam attacked in mosque:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/glasgow_and_west/6051180.stm

BA asks staff member to remove cross:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6051486.stm

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posted Oct-14-2006 02:00 PM            

Protestors outside Straw's surgery:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/lancashire/6050956.stm

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