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Please tell me how this is "protecting religious freedom"


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Author Topic:   Please tell me how this is "protecting religious freedom"
Wet Willie
Cool Runner
posted Sep-30-2006 11:14 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Wet Willie   Click Here to Email Wet Willie     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by kommish77:
If a Catholic is relying on the finished work of Christ (His death, burial and resurrection), and not on any other works, then yes, I believe that person is a "real" Christian!

Even if he has a kinky boyfriend?

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cb
Cool Runner
posted Sep-30-2006 11:18 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for cb   Click Here to Email cb     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wet Willie:
Even if he has a kinky boyfriend?


Kinky's Jewish, so it doesn't count.

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kommish77
Cool Runner
posted Sep-30-2006 11:20 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for kommish77     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wet Willie:
Even if he has a kinky boyfriend?


Just because someone is a Christian doesn't mean they don't sin. Christ doesn't make us perfect here on earth, but someday He will. God will know if the Catholic with kinky boyfriend gets into Heaven.

PS I like your short posts much better than the over-bloated ones!

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Wet Willie
Cool Runner
posted Sep-30-2006 11:47 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Wet Willie   Click Here to Email Wet Willie     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by kommish77:
Just because someone is a Christian doesn't mean they don't sin. Christ doesn't make us perfect here on earth, but someday He will. God will know if the Catholic with kinky boyfriend gets into Heaven.

I wasn't talking about Catholic gays in particular, I was talking about gays of every Christian denomination. But leaving aside the glaring fact that evidence for things like afterlives and gods and resurrections is -- to put it mildly -- lacking, you seem to be saying that an unrepentant homosexual can still get into Heaven, whereupon he wil be "fixed" and cleansed of sin. You've cast aspersions of your "liberal Christian" brethen here, but this seems to be a rather liberal view.

quote:
Originally posted by kommish77:
PS I like your short posts much better than the over-bloated ones!

Since you admit you lack the attention span to struggle through a forum post less than 1,000 words long, my suspicion that you've not read the Bible is all but confirmed.

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korts
Cool Runner
posted Sep-30-2006 12:01 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for korts   Click Here to Email korts     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ray Andrews:
I suppose you may have been speaking strictly hypothetically when you suggested to your friend that you "could" live a moral life, so that you're not actually saying you "do" live one but only that it "might be possible."

And I suppose your admission that you "have a moral code" is not necessarily synonymous with with asserting that you "live" by that code. But heck, I can't picture YOU not living by your own code; at the very least I'd think you would as much as anybody could--so yes, I read that as you saying you "live a moral life."


Actually, Ray, I fall short of my own code on an alarming basis. Of course, I don't fear that my shortcomings will land me in Hades, but I do experience guilt and shame, and I do become introspective, and search for means to improve.

And I don't live a moral life all of the time. I've done a whole lot of selfish things, and I've not always been truthful, and I'm often lazy and gluttonous.

quote:
Don't be ashamed of that admission; it's not like you're saying "I live by the moral precepts of the Bible" or somesuch. You're only saying you have standards of right and wrong and you try to live by them to the best of your ability. "Moral life." No?

I'm not ashamed at all. I do have standards of right and wrong, and I do try to live by them, and I do fail, and when I fail, I don't just say "oh, well". And that was my original point: it is possible to live by the Golden Rule to the best of one's ability, sometimes struggling and sometimes succeeding, and that one doesn't need the fear of divine retribution to feel guilt about one's failings and to want to do better.

quote:
I said:
However, I am well aware of my misdeeds, and that awareness has nothing to do with my (lack of) faith.

Ray replied:
But do you consider those "misdeeds" an impediment to faith? I hope not. No one can amass enough good deeds to deserve God's grace; and no one can amass enough bad ones to squelch it. Your faith (or lack thereof) need not be based on *you*.

(But for most people it IS based on THEM, and that's a problem.)I But do you consider those "misdeeds" an impediment to faith? I hope not. No one can amass enough good deeds to deserve God's grace; and no one can amass enough bad ones to squelch it. Your faith (or lack thereof) need not be based on *you*.

(But for most people it IS based on THEM, and that's a problem.)


Actually, Ray, my personal take on morality and ethics is pretty well divorced from my issues with faith. Perhaps if I felt like a lowly sinner in need of grace I'd be a believer. I do believe that I am a mere human in a vast, complex world, and that give me peace. But I don't dwell on my moral failings; rather, I evaluate them carefully, looking for what causes me to fall short of my own ideals, and work to behave more ideally in the future. I'm not worried about salvation. I just want to be a good friend and neighbor to my fellow humans.

------------------
korts
Me

There's a sandwich in every beer.

"I bet your sink puts your vaginal hygiene in the shade." - muscatel1988

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shnebraska
Cool Runner
posted Sep-30-2006 12:02 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for shnebraska     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by DogMom:
I'm sorry but this is a..

But it's nice to see that you don't leave judging to your God.

Isn't there something about that in the bible.


1 Corinthians 6:9-11

9Do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived! Fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, male prostitutes, sodomites, 10thieves, the greedy, drunkards, revilers, robbers-none of these will inherit the kingdom of God. 11And this is what some of you used to be. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

My opinions about this issue aside, the Bible is pretty clear about homosexuality.

I haven't read through the whole site, but found this after a brief search:
http://www.ambs.edu/LJohns/Homosexuality.htm

I don't intend to engage any further in this debate, but it always strikes me as odd that homosexual activists cite the Bible as a support when it explicitly teaches against homosexuality.

These questions are rhetorical: WetWillie, if you don't believe, why do you care? Why not let people believe what they want to believe? You must know that your polemics just make people more and more firm in their faithful resolve.

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cindyleigh
Cool Runner
posted Sep-30-2006 12:11 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for cindyleigh     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by kommish77:

And sex ed while they are at it... crazy for our schools to be teaching a subject that should be dealt with at home.



I think most sexual education curriculum focuses on health aspects of sexual activity and consequences (i.e. STDs). Its not a porn lesson. Certainly nothing that shouldn't be discussed openly. Sexual reproduction and feelings are a part of our biology, and nothing to be embarassed or ashamed of (IMO).

Any parent that objects may simply request that their child be excused. In California, a parent may excuse their child from any sex education or health instruction that conflicts with the parent's religious or moral beliefs.

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Wet Willie
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posted Sep-30-2006 12:18 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Wet Willie   Click Here to Email Wet Willie     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
korts, Ray Andrews gives you special attention because you've posted a number of times about being on the fence in terms of whether you "should" have a personal god. As a result he fairly salivates at the prospect of a new recruit every time you post something. Hell, he even seems to think I could be saved, an event which would make returning from the dead look trivial by comparison on the miracle scale.

quote:
Originally posted by shnebraska:
it always strikes me as odd that homosexual activists cite the Bible as a support when it explicitly teaches against homosexuality

Probably because 1) different parts of the Bible say diffeent things about the same subject and 2) as any Bible apologist knows, virtually any meaning can be inferred from virtually any Bible passage to suit a given agenda. We now know the universe is around 14 billion years old, not several thousand? Well, in that case a "day" is billions of years! Can't possibly fit every kind of animal on Noah's ark? Well, in that case it's not clear what "kind" means! And so on.

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kommish77
Cool Runner
posted Sep-30-2006 12:24 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for kommish77     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
kommish77 said:
Just because someone is a Christian doesn't mean they don't sin. Christ doesn't make us perfect here on earth, but someday He will. God will know if the Catholic with kinky boyfriend gets into Heaven.

Wet Willie said:
I wasn't talking about Catholic gays in particular, I was talking about gays of every Christian denomination. But leaving aside the glaring fact that evidence for things like afterlives and gods and resurrections is -- to put it mildly -- lacking, you seem to be saying that an unrepentant homosexual can still get into Heaven, whereupon he wil be "fixed" and cleansed of sin. You've cast aspersions of your "liberal Christian" brethen here, but this seems to be a rather liberal view.

Unrepentant sin in the life of a believer will negatively effect their relationship with God. If the person is truly a believer when they die, yes, they will still go to Heaven. Believers will sin on earth, once they are in Heaven there will be no sin... that's what I mean by Christ making us perfect.

kommish77 said:
PS I like your short posts much better than the over-bloated ones!

Wet Willie said:
Since you admit you lack the attention span to struggle through a forum post less than 1,000 words long, my suspicion that you've not read the Bible is all but confirmed.

I will admit to reading the complete Bible through one time, over a one year period. But I read the Bible as often as I can.

BTW, you reading the Bible does you absolutely no good... the Holy Spirit is needed to help you understand what it means. It isn't a science book that you can just pick up and read.

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kommish77
Cool Runner
posted Sep-30-2006 12:28 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for kommish77     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wet Willie:
We now know the universe is around 14 billion years old, not several thousand?

LOL... oh we do, do we? Show me the proof that the universe is 14 billion years old. You do make me laugh a lot, and for that I sincerely thank you.

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kommish77
Cool Runner
posted Sep-30-2006 12:30 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for kommish77     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by cindyleigh:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by kommish77:
[b]
And sex ed while they are at it... crazy for our schools to be teaching a subject that should be dealt with at home.



I think most sexual education curriculum focuses on health aspects of sexual activity and consequences (i.e. STDs). Its not a porn lesson. Certainly nothing that shouldn't be discussed openly. Sexual reproduction and feelings are a part of our biology, and nothing to be embarassed or ashamed of (IMO).

Any parent that objects may simply request that their child be excused. In California, a parent may excuse their child from any sex education or health instruction that conflicts with the parent's religious or moral beliefs.

[/B][/QUOTE]

So let's have some "religious" classes and allow children/parents to opt out. Sounds fair to me... sound fair to you?

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korts
Cool Runner
posted Sep-30-2006 12:38 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for korts   Click Here to Email korts     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by kommish77:
So let's have some "religious" classes and allow children/parents to opt out. Sounds fair to me... sound fair to you?

Sure, as long as we offer ALL religions, including Unitarian Universalism (my church), Islam, Wicca and Scientology. As the Establishment Clause does not allow the state to favor any particular religion, we could only get away with this if we offered classes in ALL religions. And sure, families could opt out, but the TAXPAYER would still have to fund all of those classes in every school.

Why not teach your kids religion at home and at church? Or why not sent them to a parochial school? No one is forcing you to send them to public school.

------------------
korts
Me

There's a sandwich in every beer.

"I bet your sink puts your vaginal hygiene in the shade." - muscatel1988

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pigeye
Cool Runner
posted Sep-30-2006 12:39 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for pigeye   Click Here to Email pigeye     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by kommish77:
LOL... oh we do, do we? Show me the proof that the universe is 14 billion years old. You do make me laugh a lot, and for that I sincerely thank you.



You want the proof?
You can't handle the proof!

[This message has been edited by pigeye (edited Sep-30-2006).]

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the kenyan
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posted Sep-30-2006 01:07 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for the kenyan   Click Here to Email the kenyan     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
so there are a billion and one creation myths and belief systems out there in the world today. I've always wondered what it was about the christian myth that makes them so damn special?

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Wet Willie
Cool Runner
posted Sep-30-2006 01:16 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Wet Willie   Click Here to Email Wet Willie     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by the kenyan:
so there are a billion and one creation myths and belief systems out there in the world today. I've always wondered what it was about the christian myth that makes them so damn special?

Nothing makes any of them special -- the religious myths people subscribe to are not truly chosen but are assigned at birth on the basis of cultural geography and family tradition. Had they been born in Kabul or Riyadh, Ray, Kommish and wanttorun100 would be saying exactly the same things about Mohammed and Allah as they've said here about Jesus and God, and would be just as confident that Christians are following the wrong god as they now are that Muslims are off-base. Childhood indoctrination, my friend.

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Wet Willie
Cool Runner
posted Sep-30-2006 01:28 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Wet Willie   Click Here to Email Wet Willie     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by kommish77:
So let's have some "religious" classes and allow children/parents to opt out. Sounds fair to me... sound fair to you?

Are you really equating health education with religious education in terms of fairness? You might as well be arguing that because chemistry is taught in schools, it's only fair to offer instruction in astrology, or that it's only just to teach kids how to slaughter a calf if we're going to ask them to learn how to multiply fractions.

Public schools are government entities. If you can find something in the Constitution paralleling the First Amendment -- i.e., dictating that health education and government affairs be partitioned -- please cite it.

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kommish77
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posted Sep-30-2006 01:28 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for kommish77     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by pigeye:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by kommish77:
[b] LOL... oh we do, do we? Show me the proof that the universe is 14 billion years old. You do make me laugh a lot, and for that I sincerely thank you.



You want the proof?
You can't handle the proof!


[This message has been edited by pigeye (edited Sep-30-2006).][/B][/QUOTE]

Sorry, those links aren't proof... try again.

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Wet Willie
Cool Runner
posted Sep-30-2006 01:33 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Wet Willie   Click Here to Email Wet Willie     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by kommish77:
Sorry, those links aren't proof... try again.

What exactly do you find wanting about these calculations? The presumed shape of the universe? The value of the Hubble constant? The decay rate(s) of radioactive isotopes?

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kommish77
Cool Runner
posted Sep-30-2006 01:33 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for kommish77     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wet Willie:
Are you really equating health education with religious education in terms of fairness? You might as well be arguing that because chemistry is taught in schools, it's only fair to offer instruction in astrology, or that it's only just to teach kids how to slaughter a calf if we're going to ask them to learn how to multiply fractions.

Public schools are government entities. If you can find something in the Constitution paralleling the First Amendment -- i.e., dictating that health education and government affairs be partitioned -- please cite it.


I was equating 2 topics that should be taught at home.

I don't want Christianity taught at public schools, it would be so watered down and liberal you wouldn't even recognize it!!!

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pigeye
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posted Sep-30-2006 01:35 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for pigeye   Click Here to Email pigeye     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by kommish77:
Sorry, those links aren't proof... try again.

Why not? Can you not read? Do you not have a simple understanding of science? Do you think that radiometric dating is unreliable?
I am willing to try to have a discussion, but it won't work if you are unwilling or incapable of exerting the slightest effort to try to educate yourself.

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korts
Cool Runner
posted Sep-30-2006 01:43 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for korts   Click Here to Email korts     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by kommish77:
I was equating 2 topics that should be taught at home.

I don't want Christianity taught at public schools, it would be so watered down and liberal you wouldn't even recognize it!!!


Right, but your knowledge of your Constitution is horrifyingly bad. There is a Constitutional protection regarding religion and the state; there is not one regarding sex education (which is part of health ed, really) and the state.

As I said, why don't you educate your children outside of public school? It is an option.

Were I to have children, not only would I allow them to participate in sex ed, but I would also enroll them in the UU church's OWL program.

------------------
korts
Me

There's a sandwich in every beer.

"I bet your sink puts your vaginal hygiene in the shade." - muscatel1988

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Wet Willie
Cool Runner
posted Sep-30-2006 01:46 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Wet Willie   Click Here to Email Wet Willie     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by kommish77:
I was equating 2 topics that should be taught at home.

Yes, religious instruction should be limited to the home (and private institutions such as churches), and kids from religious families are never deprived in this area. But what's your argument for omitting sex education out of a public school curriculum? You claim that parents "should" teach something about it at home, but few do. Teaching the physiological and anatomical facts about human reproduction isn't the same as describing tantric sex techniques.

quote:
Originally posted by kommish77:
I don't want Christianity taught at public schools, it would be so watered down and liberal you wouldn't even recognize it!!!

And "sex education" taught in a religious setting (e.g., abstinence-only programs) is typically fraught with outright lies -- exaggerate condom failure rates, HIV-related nonsense -- and many of these are government-funded. What do you think (so to speak) does more damage to individuals and to society at large: getting a bunch of ancient myths "wrong" or misleading young people about the realities of their own sexual conduct?

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kommish77
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posted Sep-30-2006 01:50 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for kommish77     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by pigeye:
Why not? Can you not read? Do you not have a simple understanding of science? Do you think that radiometric dating is unreliable?
I am willing to try to have a discussion, but it won't work if you are unwilling or incapable of exerting the slightest effort to try to educate yourself.

Scientists have no idea what a major flood would do to their "tests" so I can't believe their numbers are accurate.

Plus, how old would a mountain appear, if God created it? A full grown mountain, not a baby mountain, not a youth mountain, not a teen-age mountain? Would it appear one day old to these radiometric tests the day He created it, or would it apprear older?

You can't see it my way, and I can't see it yours... sorry.

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korts
Cool Runner
posted Sep-30-2006 02:02 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for korts   Click Here to Email korts     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by kommish77:
Scientists have no idea what a major flood would do to their "tests" so I can't believe their numbers are accurate.

Plus, how old would a mountain appear, if God created it? A full grown mountain, not a baby mountain, not a youth mountain, not a teen-age mountain? Would it appear one day old to these radiometric tests the day He created it, or would it apprear older?

You can't see it my way, and I can't see it yours... sorry.


Well, the scientific community would shred everything you just said, but that's okay, because you'd come back with a religious answer.

Let's compromise - you religious folk keep your religion out of the schools, and the schools will keep their science out of your churchs. Okay?

------------------
korts
Me

There's a sandwich in every beer.

"I bet your sink puts your vaginal hygiene in the shade." - muscatel1988

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pigeye
Cool Runner
posted Sep-30-2006 02:05 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for pigeye   Click Here to Email pigeye     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by kommish77:
Scientists have no idea what a major flood would do to their "tests" so I can't believe their numbers are accurate.

Plus, how old would a mountain appear, if God created it? A full grown mountain, not a baby mountain, not a youth mountain, not a teen-age mountain? Would it appear one day old to these radiometric tests the day He created it, or would it apprear older?

You can't see it my way, and I can't see it yours... sorry.




That is because your way is wrong. The way of willful ignorance seems strange to me; perhaps it is not so much that it is wrong as it is that I do not even begin to understand it. You claim to believe in God, yet you refuse to engage the brain which you must believe He gave you. How can that be anything but an insult to your creator? Failing to use the one thing that seems to separate us from other animals, and thus must have something to do with your god (as you claim to believe you are made in His image) seems to me to thumb your nose at Him in a way that seems---at least from the outside---to be incredibly disrespectful.

Now, to address the substance of your question.
I know full well what a major flood would do to such radiometric tests. In fact, radioisotopic ratios are used to determine the age of pockets of water, where by age, I mean how long they have been isolated. Water does not have much effect on nuclear process (except to the extent that water could moderate neutrons, which is not relevant to the processes used for dating). As for your putative mountain, it would depend on the processes God employed in the making of said mountain. If He, in his Incredibleness, created it from "scratch" by forming the elements from the void, it would appear somewhere between brand new and infinitely old depending upon how Capricious He is and how well He knows His Nuclear Physics.


p.s. If there was a flood which covered all the land, where has the water gone?

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