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Please tell me how this is "protecting religious freedom"


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Author Topic:   Please tell me how this is "protecting religious freedom"
Ray Andrews
Cool Runner
posted Sep-29-2006 04:57 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ray Andrews   Click Here to Email Ray Andrews     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wet Willie:
Has anyone ever tried to have your church shut down?

Yeah, but they were using witchcraft; and they were unsuccessful. But I guess that doesn't count, since you're referring to pseudo-governmental entities like the ACLU...

Hmmm.....

ACLU.... witchcraft....

quote:
Originally posted by Wet Willie:
Have you ever heard even the most "rampant" atheist suggest such a thing?

Obliquely, yes; by their attitude they make it obvious they would cheerfully countenance such a thing if it were to become "legal."

quote:
Originally posted by Wet Willie:
You like to paint the godless as aggressors, but all they really want is to be left alone.

"Why do the nations rage, and the people plot a vain thing? The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together against the Lord and against His anointed, saying, 'let us break their bonds in pieces and cast away their cords from us.'"

(Voila--a gratuitous scripture-quote, just as you asked.)

quote:
Originally posted by Wet Willie:
The only reason you can't distinguish between not allowing Christians to inoculate kids with the Christ virus and repressing religion altogether is because you resent what you perceive as an injustice

No, it's because Christ is not a virus, and to refer to Him that way insults all of us for whom He is Savior and Lord. (Good thing for you we don't react the same way Muslims do when their mentor is trashed.)

quote:
Originally posted by Wet Willie:
The "godless" ACLU has successfully defended the right of street preachers to stand on the corner and bellow whatever it is they're belowing about.

...only because to them it's nothing but innocuous "bellowing;" if it were to meld into something that could cast any serious aspersions on them or threaten their paychecks, they'd be all over it like ducks on a junebug.

You ain't got a leg to stand on here, buddy.

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kommish77
Cool Runner
posted Sep-29-2006 05:03 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for kommish77     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wet Willie:
Bullshít. You said that homosexuals need to "repent and get right with God." Subtleties aren't one of your variousintellectual strong suits, but that's a judgment. Believe what you want, but take some responsibility for your attitudes. Regardless of why you think homosexuality is wrong, you still believe it, and hiding behind "faith" is no better than someone who hates blacks hiding behind the excuse that all the males in his family have been in the Klan isince its inception. This may be explanatory, but not exculpatory.


Despite what the liberal "Christians" say, and the homosexuals themselves, homosexuality is a SIN. God came up with repenting way before I thought of it.

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Wet Willie
Cool Runner
posted Sep-29-2006 05:03 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Wet Willie   Click Here to Email Wet Willie     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by kommish77:
evolution is one way to indirectly say that there is no God

I'm going to ask you to draw on your deep reservoir of science knowledge here: What element(s) of evolutionary theory address(es) God? Are you saying that because a particular field of inquiry is taught in terms of its inherent facts rather than in the context of someone's religious dogma, teaching evolution is an endorsement of atheism? Jesus Christ, does someone have to press a button on your head periodically in order to remind you to breathe?

quote:
Originally posted by kommish77:
If the homosexuals don't like it, take it up with God.

How? Does he have an e-mail address?

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kommish77
Cool Runner
posted Sep-29-2006 05:11 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for kommish77     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wet Willie:
I'm going to ask you to draw on your deep reservoir of science knowledge here: What element(s) of evolutionary theory address(es) God? Are you saying that because a particular field of inquiry is taught in terms of its inherent facts rather than in the context of someone's religious dogma, teaching evolution is an endorsement of atheism? Jesus Christ, does someone have to press a button on your head periodically in order to remind you to breathe?

Most people who believe in evolutionary theory do not believe in a Creator, is that a true or false statement?

quote:

Originally posted by kommish77:
If the homosexuals don't like it, take it up with God.

Originally posted by Wet Willie:
How? Does he have an e-mail address?


Actually He has 2... God@pray.com and God@readyourbible.com

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Wet Willie
Cool Runner
posted Sep-29-2006 05:17 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Wet Willie   Click Here to Email Wet Willie     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wet Willie:
Have you ever heard even the most "rampant" atheist suggest such a thing?

quote:
Originally posted by Ray Andrews:
Obliquely, yes; by their attitude they make it obvious they would cheerfully countenance such a thing if it were to become "legal."

My ass. With an eye on what's quoted below, that's like saying it's obvious that if you could get away with it you and your fella fanatics would have me burned at the stake for referring to Christ as a virus, and that the only thing stopping you is the threat of legal consequences. This may be true, but it's not "obviously" true.

And the ACLU you hate so much would fight like hell to make sure the government couldn't take action against anyone practicing their religious faith. It's just that the ACLU os most often forced to go to bat for the godless side because it's the religious twits who consistently scoff at existing laws, believing theirs is a more relevant set of guidelines.

quote:
Originally posted by Wet Willie:
The only reason you can't distinguish between not allowing Christians to inoculate kids with the Christ virus and repressing religion altogether is because you resent what you perceive as an injustice

quote:
Originally posted by Ray Andrews:
No, it's because Christ is not a virus, and to refer to Him that way insults all of us for whom He is Savior and Lord. (Good thing for you we don't react the same way Muslims do when their mentor is trashed.)

Yeah, well, making policy decisions based on the alleged whims of inscrutable deities insults those of us who have escaped inoculation. And you're right -- it's unfair ro label Christ a virus, since viruses can be demonstrated to exist, and also because we actually have some effective vaccines and antiviral medications, but no tools as of yet to purge victims of the "Jesus virus" once it has commandeered their central nervous systems. (Fortunately, in the manner of a "miraculous" cancer remission, this sometimes occurs spontaneously.)

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Wet Willie
Cool Runner
posted Sep-29-2006 05:29 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Wet Willie   Click Here to Email Wet Willie     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by kommish77:
Most people who believe in evolutionary theory do not believe in a Creator, is that a true or false statement?

Oops! Dodging the question(s), are we?

I don't have numbers handy, but I would bet that there is a lower incidence of religiosity among people who accept the facts of evolution than among those who do not.

However, this is irrelevant, not only to this subject but in general. People's unprovable beliefs about gods have no bearing on what they do and do not hear discussed in American science classrooms. What I believe about UFOs doesn't affect the content of what I read in Astronomny magazine -- only my perception of it.

One more time: What element(s) of evolutionary theory address(es) God? Remember, we're talking about your claim that atheism is indirectly taught in schools.


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Wet Willie
Cool Runner
posted Sep-29-2006 05:31 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Wet Willie   Click Here to Email Wet Willie     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by kommish77:
Actually He has 2... God@pray.com and God@readyourbible.com

Sent e-mails to both and got replies with attachments that turned out to be viruses. Surprise, surprise. I guess I'm on some ecclesiastical blacklist.

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grimupnorth
Cool Runner
posted Sep-29-2006 05:35 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for grimupnorth     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wet Willie:
Sent e-mails to both and got replies with attachments that turned out to be viruses. Surprise, surprise. I guess I'm on some ecclesiastical blacklist.


Ah, but have you not heard it said that God moves in mysterious ways?

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ferrellk
Cool Runner
posted Sep-29-2006 05:37 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ferrellk     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by kommish77:
Most people who believe in evolutionary theory do not believe in a Creator, is that a true or false statement?


Before you can get any worthwhile answers to your question you would need to define "creator".

Do you mean "any" creator, only the Judeo Christian idea of a creator or exactly the "Creator" you personally believe in?

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MadPeteTrullo
Member
posted Sep-29-2006 06:30 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for MadPeteTrullo     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ferrellk:
Before you can get any worthwhile answers to your question you would need to define "creator".

Do you mean "any" creator, only the Judeo Christian idea of a creator or exactly the "Creator" you personally believe in?



and what if you believe in a god that doesn't create, but maybe just hangs out and is just an abstract concept? God and Creator are not necessarily the same thing. Evolution does not discuss origins so you could go off an believe it was set in motion by a Creator, in fact a cooler Creator than the bible since 7 days and just throwing life down isn't as neat as millions of years of natural selection.

If *I* was a creator and all powerful, I would much rather do a little spark and a 'lets see what comes out of this one-cell organism' then just create everything in a week. Jeez, I mean, I am all powerful and going to live forever, I certainly have millions of years to kill with neato science experiments.

I don't like how so many religions are tied to such specifics, God said THIS, had THIS son, did THIS, etc. Specifics for me are good in engineering and science. For spirituality I like big abstract vague concepts, since it allows a lot of room for discussion and exploration, which I always thought was the point.

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Wet Willie
Cool Runner
posted Sep-29-2006 06:39 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Wet Willie   Click Here to Email Wet Willie     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ferrellk:
Before you can get any worthwhile answers to your question you would need to define "creator".

Do you mean "any" creator, only the Judeo Christian idea of a creator or exactly the "Creator" you personally believe in?


Yeah, I was going to mention Kommish's not-so-subtle shifting of the discussion paameters, but his question is pointless. It doesn't matter whether someone who teaches evolution in science class believes in gods or not as long the curriculum adheres to the standards of modern biology. It may be true that astrophysicsts are less likely than others to believe that the the universe was shat out of the backside of a giant turtle, but the fact that they discuss the Big Bang instead (given that it's easily the best available theory concerning origins) doesn't mean that they're actively railing against ass-turtlists.

quote:
Originally posted by Kommish77:
Despite what the liberal "Christians" say, and the homosexuals themselves, homosexuality is a SIN. God came up with repenting way before I thought of it.

Actually I got a reply from someone in God's office. Here's what it said:

"Sorry about the virus, our IT guys are 2,000 years behind the times. Anyway, is that Kommish idiot running his mouth again? Look, if he thinks gays are 'sinners,' he didn't hear it from us. I can assure you that God has never personally told anyone what He thinks about homosexuals one way or the other. Now, I know that people say that God doesn't condone homosexing, but everyone who says that has heard it from some other Earthling or read it in that trashy old novel everyone thinks God wrote. Hell, He laughed at that crap for hundreds of years until He realized how much stupidity and violence He was being blamed for.

So unless Kommish or anyone else can provide evidence that God actually believes something, keep bashing them -- God says one day that reason will actually prevail, which makes me wonder if He fell off the wagon again when He went to San Francisco last month -- again.

Hope this helps!

Sincerely,

One of His Minions"

[This message has been edited by Wet Willie (edited Sep-29-2006).]

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willmary
Cool Runner
posted Sep-29-2006 07:04 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for willmary   Click Here to Email willmary     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by agdobson:
Wet Willie,

You're doing an admirable job, and I'm trying to help as best I can. I have to go home now, but I'll be back on here in an hour or so. Hold down the fort!



What are you guys? The anti-religion tag team?

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kommish77
Cool Runner
posted Sep-30-2006 12:08 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for kommish77     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wet Willie:
Oops! Dodging the question(s), are we?

One more time: [b]What element(s) of evolutionary theory address(es) God? Remember, we're talking about your claim that atheism is indirectly taught in schools.

[/B]


The part that says things evolved and He didn't create them in the 6 days that the Bible says. The part that says we humans are evolved from animals.

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korts
Cool Runner
posted Sep-30-2006 12:16 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for korts   Click Here to Email korts     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ray Andrews:
YOU live a MORAL life?
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Geez, Ray. Can you read English? Did I actually say I did? I'd venture that I did not. However, I am well aware of my misdeeds, and that awareness has nothing to do with my (lack of) faith. And please remember that I was NOT raised in a religious family, so my awareness is not something that I gained from religious folk.

------------------
korts
Me

There's a sandwich in every beer.

"I bet your sink puts your vaginal hygiene in the shade." - muscatel1988

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korts
Cool Runner
posted Sep-30-2006 12:19 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for korts   Click Here to Email korts     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by kommish77:
So that will show me what America believes is right and wrong. Who is to say that those "morals" are correct?

As there is no Constitutional grounds for an official religion in the U.S., nitpicky morality cannot be insisted upon.

I'd venture that the vast majority of Americans believe in the Golden Rule.

Is the Golden Rule correct? Well, I'd go as far as to say it doesn't harm the species. In fact, it may aid the success of the species.

------------------
korts
Me

There's a sandwich in every beer.

"I bet your sink puts your vaginal hygiene in the shade." - muscatel1988

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Wet Willie
Cool Runner
posted Sep-30-2006 01:15 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Wet Willie   Click Here to Email Wet Willie     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wet Willie:
What element(s) of evolutionary theory address(es) God?

quote:
Originally posted by kommish77:
The part that says things evolved...

That's a pretty broad answer.

quote:
Originally posted by kommish77:
...and He didn't create them in the 6 days that the Bible says.

Evolution says nothing about what didn't happen. It doesn't include anything about air gods, aliens dropping off a few pod-people to get the whole thing started, or animals arising spontaneously from rocks. It doesn't single out -- or reference in any way - the Christian god or any other deities.

quote:
Originally posted by kommish77:
The part that says we humans are evolved from animals.

Yes, evolutionary theory posits that humans and all other animals evolved from a common ancestor. This is because the evidence points in this direction and becomes ever firmer over time -- advances in molecular biology have confirmed earlier work largely based on fossils and other less direct evidence.

If you're saying that evolution is incompatible with a literal interpretation of the Genesis accounts, I agree. However, this is not a problem for scientists, but for religious dogmatists (including scientists who cannot successfully compartmentalize their scientific and theistic beliefs).

Science has no agenda other than knowledge itself, and doesn't owe anyone or anything any apologies or favors. Religion has a strict, unbending and typically aggressive agenda. Who has the axe to grind? Not difficult to decide.

[This message has been edited by Wet Willie (edited Sep-30-2006).]

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Ray Andrews
Cool Runner
posted Sep-30-2006 01:54 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ray Andrews   Click Here to Email Ray Andrews     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by korts:
Geez, Ray. Can you read English? Did I actually say I did [live a moral life]? I'd venture that I did not.

Well now, come to think of it, there may be more than one way to interpret what you meant when you said:

quote:
Originally posted by korts:
I had a friend in my last squadron who couldn't understand how I could live a moral life without belief in G-d. He couldn't wrap his arms around the idea that I had a moral and ethical code that is based upon what is good for society and for my fellow humans.

I suppose you may have been speaking strictly hypothetically when you suggested to your friend that you "could" live a moral life, so that you're not actually saying you "do" live one but only that it "might be possible."

And I suppose your admission that you "have a moral code" is not necessarily synonymous with with asserting that you "live" by that code. But heck, I can't picture YOU not living by your own code; at the very least I'd think you would as much as anybody could--so yes, I read that as you saying you "live a moral life."

Don't be ashamed of that admission; it's not like you're saying "I live by the moral precepts of the Bible" or somesuch. You're only saying you have standards of right and wrong and you try to live by them to the best of your ability. "Moral life." No?

(I was joking with ya anyway; I didn't mean for you to get all offended and everything...)

(Dadgum smilies! They never can seem to convey my many & varied nuances of expression and shades of meaning. Oh well.)

quote:
Originally posted by korts:
However, I am well aware of my misdeeds, and that awareness has nothing to do with my (lack of) faith.

But do you consider those "misdeeds" an impediment to faith? I hope not. No one can amass enough good deeds to deserve God's grace; and no one can amass enough bad ones to squelch it. Your faith (or lack thereof) need not be based on *you*.

(But for most people it IS based on THEM, and that's a problem.)

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Ray Andrews
Cool Runner
posted Sep-30-2006 02:30 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ray Andrews   Click Here to Email Ray Andrews     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wet Willie:
My ass...that's like saying it's obvious that if you could get away with it you and your fella fanatics would have me burned at the stake for referring to Christ as a virus, and that the only thing stopping you is the threat of legal consequences.

Me? No; if I had you burned at the stake, who'd I get for a sparring partner for all these drawn-out Internet theological harangues? I think I'll keep ya alive, at least for the time being.

Now I can't speak for my "fella fanatics". But I will say that what would be stopping them would be the constraining power of Christ's love for sinners, not the "long arm of the law."

quote:
Originally posted by Wet Willie:
Yeah, well, making policy decisions based on the alleged whims of inscrutable deities insults those of us who have escaped inoculation...

No tools as of yet to purge victims of the "Jesus virus" once it has commandeered their central nervous systems.


We are rapidly approaching the Omega Point. Not just you and me, Willie--every one of us.

As the followers of all extant deities practice their religions, perfect their crafts, spin their webs, cast their nets, sow their seeds, make their tools, follow their disciplines to their ultimate obtainable perfection, a denouement of cosmic proportions will ensue.

At the pinnacle, there will be a flash point.

This will give everyone a chance to see whether "the God who answers by fire" is, in fact, God. (Not all gods who do, are.) But you will want to know in advance, because the answer will not be leaked to the Press.

Realize that we are all on our respective Trains; they all have left the Station, heading for Chicago (or somewhere in the Great Unknown). It's the Great Train Race! And You are in it. And I am in it. We are all in it. Will I see you on the platform at our destination? I hope so, 'cause you're not that bad a guy--even though you have a foul mouth sometimes and smack your lips when you eat.

(Hubris. Don't get off the train at Hubris.)

[This message has been edited by Ray Andrews (edited Sep-30-2006).]

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alaskagrown
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posted Sep-30-2006 09:11 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for alaskagrown     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by kommish77:

True, the schools have been producing some pretty good, moral, decent kids the last 40 years.



They sure have. I am so impressed by kids today, so many of which manage to be dynamic, smart, creative, safe, and thoughtful under the onslaught of television, fast food, and marketing slung at them by older corporate wh*res educated more than 40 years ago.

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cb
Cool Runner
posted Sep-30-2006 09:48 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for cb   Click Here to Email cb     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by kommish77:
Most people who believe in evolutionary theory do not believe in a Creator, is that a true or false statement?


False. Since you have your direct line to Heaven, you might want to chat with JPII about it. 1.06 billion Catholics can't be wrong.

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kommish77
Cool Runner
posted Sep-30-2006 10:54 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for kommish77     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by cb:
False. Since you have your direct line to Heaven, you might want to chat with JPII about it. 1.06 billion Catholics can't be wrong.

Hmmmm.... I'll bite my tongue on the first part of that post.

So Catholics as a whole believe in evolution? If that is true, I didn't know that (but it wouldn't surprise me). But what 1.06 billion Catholics believe, or JP2 for that matter, really doesn't have anything to do with me.

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cb
Cool Runner
posted Sep-30-2006 10:58 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for cb   Click Here to Email cb     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by kommish77:
Hmmmm.... I'll bite my tongue on the first part of that post.

So Catholics as a whole believe in evolution? If that is true, I didn't know that (but it wouldn't surprise me). But what 1.06 billion Catholics believe, or JP2 for that matter, really doesn't have anything to do with me.


What Catholic believe may have nothing to do with you, but it should stop you from making erroneous assumptions that belief and a Creator and belief in evolution are mutually exclusive. It makes your arguement much weaker when you insist false statements are true.

I'm going to make a wild guess here though, do you consider Catholics to be "real" Christians.? My very most heartfelt apologies if I'm wrong.

[This message has been edited by cb (edited Sep-30-2006).]

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cindyleigh
Cool Runner
posted Sep-30-2006 11:06 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for cindyleigh     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by annora:
" I believe we need basic religion in our schools to teach children the way God would have them go," said Will Duncan, a member of the Sumner County Board of Education. "
[/i]


This certainly isn't someone I want setting my children's curriculum.

Teach and practice religion at home.

Edited to add: and isn't this presumptuous ...I gather he would like HIS religion to be the one instructed. Which basic religion should schools teach children? All of them? I would have no problem with a "Religion of the Worlds" class that gives equal time to all religous beliefs, objectively and without bias.

[This message has been edited by cindyleigh (edited Sep-30-2006).]

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kommish77
Cool Runner
posted Sep-30-2006 11:08 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for kommish77     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by cb:
What Catholic believe may have nothing to do with you, but it should stop you from making erroneous assumptions that belief and a Creator and belief in evolution are mutually exclusive. It makes your arguement much weaker when you insist false statements are true.

I'm going to make a wild guess here though, do you consider Catholics to be "real" Christians.? My very most heartfelt apologies if I'm wrong.

[This message has been edited by cb (edited Sep-30-2006).]



Do Catholics as a whole believe in evolution as opposed to creation, or do they each decide for themselves what they believe on that subject?

If a Catholic is relying on the finished work of Christ (His death, burial and resurrection), and not on any other works, then yes, I believe that person is a "real" Christian. It really is pretty simple!

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kommish77
Cool Runner
posted Sep-30-2006 11:13 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for kommish77     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by cindyleigh:

This certainly isn't someone I want setting my children's curriculum.

Teach and practice religion at home.



And sex ed while they are at it... crazy for our schools to be teaching a subject that should be dealt with at home.

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