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Please tell me how this is "protecting religious freedom"


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Author Topic:   Please tell me how this is "protecting religious freedom"
Ray Andrews
Cool Runner
posted Sep-29-2006 03:24 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ray Andrews   Click Here to Email Ray Andrews     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by korts:
I had a friend in my last squadron who couldn't understand how I could live a moral life without belief in G-d.

YOU live a MORAL life?
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ctjim
Cool Runner
posted Sep-29-2006 03:24 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ctjim     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
It's a public school.
If parents want to pray for the kids during school hours, wouldn't they want to do it someplace more appropriate, rather than in the school cafeteria ?

Somplace like...ummmm....i don't know......like a church ?

My gut tells me there's no shortage of churches in Lebanon, TN.

Furthermore, are any other parents out there uncomfortable with the idea of random adults waltzing into school, during school hours, for whatever reason ?

[This message has been edited by ctjim (edited Sep-29-2006).]

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wanttorun100
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posted Sep-29-2006 03:31 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for wanttorun100   Click Here to Email wanttorun100     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
so I take it most folks here didn't take part in

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kommish77
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posted Sep-29-2006 03:33 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for kommish77     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by monster2:
I was not aware that "atheism" was taught or encouraged in any school systems, is it?

My point was that since not everyone can be accomodated in their beliefe that focusing on any one belief would be wrong. If the atheists started passing out flyers at school I am sure that would cause a serious ruckus, would it not? I am not against christians having meetings before or after school as long as other religions are allowed to do the same.

I do have one question though, what happens if there are gay students at school but the school allows a particular group that teaches that homosexuality is wrong, immoral and will send you to hell? Do you see why this could lead to problems?


Atheism is taught indirectly.

If they allow Christians to meet, I have no problem with others meeting.

The homosexuals can choose to not attend, or they can repent and get right with God.

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willmary
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posted Sep-29-2006 03:33 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for willmary   Click Here to Email willmary     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wet Willie:
Right, and "OFF" is a TV channel.

Do you believe in monsters under the bed, Kommish? Lots and lots of little kids do, so there must be something to it. If you reject this belief, you are an "amonsterist" and have therefore created a religious belief system. Taken further, you may not mention your amonsterism in school because this would be exactly the same as forcing someone to worship Jesus, Allah or Zeus.

See how easy these exercises in mindless equivocation are?


I disagree. Atheists believe there is no God. I would prefer not to have my children taught that there is no God. It's not the same as "OFF" or not teaching anything on religion.

(And I'm not saying anyone is teaching Atheism in schools. I'm just saying your analogy missed the mark.)

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kommish77
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posted Sep-29-2006 03:34 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for kommish77     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wet Willie:
Have you ever heard of the legislative branch of the U.S. government? If not, Google "Congress" or "American laws" (or run them through Wikipedia). It's a lot to sift through, but I know you catch on quickly.


So that will show me what America believes is right and wrong. Who is to say that those "morals" are correct?

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Wet Willie
Cool Runner
posted Sep-29-2006 03:35 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Wet Willie   Click Here to Email Wet Willie     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by kommish77:
I have to admit, it is nice to be able to come on here and know that I can get the final word from the man himself, the wonderful, all-knowing, Wet Willie. I used to "Google it" when I needed to know something, now I just "Wet Willie it".

This is a lightly reworded version of Ray Andrews' "I call BS on this whole post" from the Dawkins thread. I have to ask, why even bother answering a post if all you have is a non-answer? Why not either ignore it or just write something like "Old McDonald had a farem, ee-i-ee-i-o" and drop all pretense at relevance?

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Ray Andrews
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posted Sep-29-2006 03:35 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ray Andrews   Click Here to Email Ray Andrews     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wet Willie:
Yeah, I hate the fact that forced conversions aren't allowed in this country.

Think about what you're saying here. You are saying that in order to protect the country from "forced conversions" (a la Islam) we must have a country that is "free FROM religion." (Like it's an "all or nothing" proposition.) That same logic applied to sex education is where the "abstinence only" folks get on.

quote:
Originally posted by Wet Willie:
Don't you just hate the fact that the U.S. government routinely storms people's houses looking for evidence of wacjo religious affiliation

Interesting freudian slip of the finger there, Kev--

"Wacjo" looks a lot like Waco, don't it...

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[This message has been edited by Ray Andrews (edited Sep-29-2006).]

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agdobson
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posted Sep-29-2006 03:36 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for agdobson   Click Here to Email agdobson     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by willmary:
I disagree. Atheists believe there is no God. I would prefer not to have my children taught that there is no God. It's not the same as "OFF" or not teaching anything on religion.

(And I'm not saying anyone is teaching Atheism in schools. I'm just saying your analogy missed the mark.)



Atheists don't believe that there is no God. Atheists have a lack of belief in God. There is a difference, albeit a subtle one.

Everyone's born an atheist, just like every TV comes turned OFF. The belief in a God must be learned, just like a TV must be given power and switched ON.

Atheism is the default position.

Edited to add:

Children, in public schools, aren't taught that there is no God. The subject is ignored completely.

[This message has been edited by agdobson (edited Sep-29-2006).]

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Wet Willie
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posted Sep-29-2006 03:38 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Wet Willie   Click Here to Email Wet Willie     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by willmary:
I disagree. Atheists believe there is no God. I would prefer not to have my children taught that there is no God. It's not the same as "OFF" or not teaching anything on religion.

(And I'm not saying anyone is teaching Atheism in schools. I'm just saying your analogy missed the mark.)


In the purest sense, there's a difference between simply being an atheist (accepting no gods; being without gods) and actively teaching that a particular god, or the whole lot of them, doesn't exist. The latter belief still wouldn't classify as a religion, but it is clearly an active process and so does differ qualitatively from OFF.

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Ray Andrews
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posted Sep-29-2006 03:42 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ray Andrews   Click Here to Email Ray Andrews     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wet Willie:
This is a lightly reworded version of Ray Andrews' "I call BS on this whole post" from the Dawkins thread. I have to ask, why even bother answering a post if all you have is a non-answer?

Quit puttin' BS like this out there and we'll quit non-answering.

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DogMom
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posted Sep-29-2006 03:46 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for DogMom   Click Here to Email DogMom     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by kommish77:
Atheism is taught indirectly.

If they allow Christians to meet, I have no problem with others meeting.

The homosexuals can choose to not attend, or they can repent and get right with God.


I'm sorry but this is a..

But it's nice to see that you don't leave judging to your God.

Isn't there something about that in the bible.

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wanttorun100
Cool Runner
posted Sep-29-2006 03:47 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for wanttorun100   Click Here to Email wanttorun100     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by agdobson:

Atheists don't believe that there is no God. Atheists have a lack of belief in God. There is a difference, albeit a subtle one.

Everyone's born an atheist, just like every TV comes turned OFF. The belief in a God must be learned, just like a TV must be given power and switched ON.

Atheism is the default position.

Edited to add:

Children, in public schools, aren't taught that there is no God. The subject is ignored completely.

[This message has been edited by agdobson (edited Sep-29-2006).]



I disagree Christianity is actively suppresed in many publik skrools but then that's ok because we know what hateful biggots Christians are

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Wet Willie
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posted Sep-29-2006 03:48 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Wet Willie   Click Here to Email Wet Willie     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by kommish77:
So that will show me what America believes is right and wrong. Who is to say that those "morals" are correct?

You asked me who decides what's right and wrong and I answered you. And Morals and laws aren't the same thing, genius. But why would anyone in this country rely on a book thousands of years old in order to determine what's right and wrong rather than on what Americans think? I mean, you may favor slavery, the blatant oppression of women, the execution of gays, and other Biblical niceties, but some people (including the Framers) think that people's rights are kind of trampled by Tim LaHaye-type thinking.

quote:
Originally posted by kommish77:
Atheism is taught indirectly.

You really are a piece of work. How does anyone teach a lack of a belief in something "indirectly"? By not actively supporting the belief system in question?

Your comment about homosexuals is very charitable. I'm sure they'll like that.

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agdobson
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posted Sep-29-2006 03:55 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for agdobson   Click Here to Email agdobson     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by wanttorun100:

I disagree Christianity is actively suppresed in many publik skrools but then that's ok because we know what hateful biggots Christians are

I can't argue with this, not because you have a good point, but because your argument makes NO SENSE AT ALL.

Just because something isn't encouraged doesn't mean it's "actively suppressed."

I'm sorry, but religion has absolutely no place whatsoever in a math class, or an English class.

It's like saying that because the benefits of running aren't expounded by your church, your church is obviously actively suppressing the sport, when "running" and "church" are not related in any way.

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monster2
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posted Sep-29-2006 03:56 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for monster2     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by wanttorun100:

I disagree Christianity is actively suppresed in many publik skrools but then that's ok because we know what hateful biggots Christians are

I did pose the question about that earlier and you didn't respond. So explain to me why, if your religion teaches that homosexuality is wrong, and immoral and sinful and all manner of negative things, it should be allowed ina public school where there are gay students? Would you have homosexuals singled out for conversion? Would you skip that anti-gay part, how would that work? Seriously, if we allowed religious groups to hand out material in school how would you deal with that?

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Wet Willie
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posted Sep-29-2006 03:59 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Wet Willie   Click Here to Email Wet Willie     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ray Andrews:
You are saying that in order to protect the country from "forced conversions" (a la Islam) we must have a country that is "free FROM religion." (Like it's an "all or nothing" proposition.)

What horseshďt. Has anyone ever tried to have your church shut down? Broken into your home and confiscated your Bibles? Had you ticketed or tossed in jail for a "Jesus is my Hero" bumper stciker? Have you ever heard even the most "rampant" atheist suggest such a thing?

You like to paint the godless as aggressors, but all they really want is to be left alone. But you and other evangelicals are by definition not content with this. The only reason you can't distinguish between not allowing Christians to inoculate kids with the Christ virus and repressing religion altogether is because you resent what you perceive as an injustice, an the intrusion.

The "godless" ACLU has successfully defended the right of street preachers to stand on the corner and bellow whatever it is they're belowing about. That's freedom of religious expression, a two-way street. Handing out the Bible in school is not.

Time for a few bursts o;' scripture, innit? To prove that God's word should be spread the world over?

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agdobson
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posted Sep-29-2006 04:02 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for agdobson   Click Here to Email agdobson     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Wet Willie,

You're doing an admirable job, and I'm trying to help as best I can. I have to go home now, but I'll be back on here in an hour or so. Hold down the fort!

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wanttorun100
Cool Runner
posted Sep-29-2006 04:10 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for wanttorun100   Click Here to Email wanttorun100     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by agdobson:
I can't argue with this, not because you have a good point, but because your argument makes NO SENSE AT ALL.

Just because something isn't encouraged doesn't mean it's "actively suppressed."

I'm sorry, but religion has absolutely no place whatsoever in a math class, or an English class.

It's like saying that because the benefits of running aren't expounded by your church, your church is obviously actively suppressing the sport, when "running" and "church" are not related in any way.


when a micophone is cut off from a student duing a graduation speach because they mention Jesus that is active suppression - it's only an example -

but of course I can't possible make sense because Christians are all dolts

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willmary
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posted Sep-29-2006 04:29 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for willmary   Click Here to Email willmary     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by agdobson:

Atheists don't believe that there is no God. Atheists have a lack of belief in God. There is a difference, albeit a subtle one.

Everyone's born an atheist, just like every TV comes turned OFF. The belief in a God must be learned, just like a TV must be given power and switched ON.

Atheism is the default position.

Edited to add:

Children, in public schools, aren't taught that there is no God. The subject is ignored completely.

[This message has been edited by agdobson (edited Sep-29-2006).]


Merriam-Webster disagrees with you and so do I:

Main Entry: atheˇist
Pronunciation: 'A-thE-ist
Function: noun
: one who believes that there is no deity
http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/atheist

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3SA
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posted Sep-29-2006 04:34 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 3SA     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I thought the Israelis had bombed Lebanon

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Wet Willie
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posted Sep-29-2006 04:45 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Wet Willie   Click Here to Email Wet Willie     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by willmary:
Merriam-Webster disagrees with you and so do I:

Main Entry: atheˇist
Pronunciation: 'A-thE-ist
Function: noun
: one who believes that there is no deity
http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/atheist

From Wikipedia:

Atheism, in its broadest sense, is the absence of belief in the existence of deities. A narrower definition includes only those who believe that deities do not exist. In other words, an "atheist" can be defined as either:

A person who does not believe that at least one god exists; or
A person who has a positive belief that no god or gods exist.

So everyone's right. Regardless, can you explain how debating the finer points of the definition of atheism relates in any way to this topic? Perhaps religious people who believe their views have been subjected to unfair consoring are determined to demonstrate that a lack of a belief contitutes a belief so they can slippery-slope their way into falsely claiming that atheism is tantamount to a religious conviction. They've used this stupid bit of equivocation for years and aren't about to stop, but repeating a lie ad nauseam doesn't infuse it with truth. But this doesn't appear to be your conviction.

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kommish77
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posted Sep-29-2006 04:46 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for kommish77     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by DogMom:
I'm sorry but this is a..

But it's nice to see that you don't leave judging to your God.

Isn't there something about that in the bible.


Sorry, but I don't HATE any individual person. You must be confused, because I am leaving the judging to God, He will do a much better job than I would.

BTW, does the "Hate Free Zone" protect Christians as well?

[This message has been edited by kommish77 (edited Sep-29-2006).]

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kommish77
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posted Sep-29-2006 04:52 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for kommish77     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wet Willie:
You really are a piece of work. How does anyone teach a lack of a belief in something "indirectly"? By not actively supporting the belief system in question?

Your comment about homosexuals is very charitable. I'm sure they'll like that.


Let me think.... evolution is one way to indirectly say that there is no God (I know, the liberal bburygone doesn't agree).

If the homosexuals don't like it, take it up with God. I have friends and family that are gay/lesbian, and I love them as much as any other friend or family member. Doesn't mean I have to like what they do.

I sin as much as the next person so don't take this as me saying I am better than anyone else, because I am not. I am just a sinner saved by Grace... AMEN!!!

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Wet Willie
Cool Runner
posted Sep-29-2006 04:56 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Wet Willie   Click Here to Email Wet Willie     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by kommish77:
I am leaving the judging to God

Bullshít. You said that homosexuals need to "repent and get right with God." Subtleties aren't one of your variousintellectual strong suits, but that's a judgment. Believe what you want, but take some responsibility for your attitudes. Regardless of why you think homosexuality is wrong, you still believe it, and hiding behind "faith" is no better than someone who hates blacks hiding behind the excuse that all the males in his family have been in the Klan isince its inception. This may be explanatory, but not exculpatory.

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