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Please tell me how this is "protecting religious freedom"


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Author Topic:   Please tell me how this is "protecting religious freedom"
offended by everything
Cool Runner
posted Sep-29-2006 02:03 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for offended by everything     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ElDuderino:
Apparently the Religious Right equates religion with patriotism, citizenship, and morality: hence all the "God Bless The USA" bumper stickers that make me want to puke.

The ability of the Religious Right to get in side your head and among other things "make you want to puke" is an interesting phenomenon. Who knew a bumper sticker could cause such gastrointestinal distress.

I've never ascribe much power to them but they seem to send you and many others here off the deep end. I guess their psychological powers are in fact quite formidable.

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korts
Cool Runner
posted Sep-29-2006 02:03 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for korts   Click Here to Email korts     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by kommish77:

True, the schools have been producing some pretty good, moral, decent kids the last 40 years.


Do you believe that the only road to morality is religion?

------------------
korts
Me

There's a sandwich in every beer.

"I bet your sink puts your vaginal hygiene in the shade." - muscatel1988

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Zapatista
Cool Runner
posted Sep-29-2006 02:05 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Zapatista     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by agdobson:
Here's a question I would love to have answered:

Why does there need to be religion in schools? Why isn't religion at home good enough? Do we need God to demonstrate that 2+2 really does equal 4? That the capital of Djibouti is Djibouti?

I just don't understand what place religion has in the classroom...



They don't want to educate students, they want to indoctrinate them.

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ctjim
Cool Runner
posted Sep-29-2006 02:06 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ctjim     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Angelina Jolie:
If everyone's so worried about morality and citizenship and patriotism, perhaps we could refocus on basic civics instead of religion.

Civic Literacy Project


now you're just offering "criticism and obstruction and endless second-guessing," just like WTR said you would !

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monster2
Cool Runner
posted Sep-29-2006 02:06 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for monster2     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by willmary:
I'll take a stab at answering this. It's because Christians are Christians 24/7. It's not possible to check beliefs at the door when the school bell rings. It probably has not inpact on math class. But it certainly has an impact on the student's understanding of history. It also impacts geography and social studies.

You are correct and I would imagine this holds true for people of any faith or even those who do not believe so you either have to let everyone have their way, or no one, so to speak. It wouldn't really be fair to just teach everything from a Christian view point.

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wanttorun100
Cool Runner
posted Sep-29-2006 02:07 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for wanttorun100   Click Here to Email wanttorun100     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by korts:
Do you believe that the only road to morality is religion?


sure - man's bound to screw it up - heck even with religion we manage to screw it up with false ones

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DogMom
Cool Runner
posted Sep-29-2006 02:11 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for DogMom   Click Here to Email DogMom     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by agdobson:

I just don't understand what place religion has in the classroom...

1

quote:
Originally posted by monster2:
I imagine they would have been fine without the flyers and telling kids they had been prayed for. Imagine if it was a Wiccan group doing that, people would be going nuts.

1

quote:
Originally posted by wanttorun100:
well we can't have those mouth breathing, brain stem, evil, bigoted, homophobe Christians around skrools don't you know


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Wet Willie
Cool Runner
posted Sep-29-2006 02:12 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Wet Willie   Click Here to Email Wet Willie     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by offended by everything:
The ability of the Religious Right to get in side your head and among other things "make you want to puke" is an interesting phenomenon. Who knew a bumper sticker could cause such gastrointestinal distress.

I've never ascribe much power to them but they seem to send you and many others here off the deep end. I guess their psychological powers are in fact quite formidable.


In my flesh-and-blood life I also pay little attention to them, but you'd really have to have your head buried under a few layers of bedrock in order to believe that their influence is limited to token bumper stickers.

quote:
Originally posted by korts:
Do you believe that the only road to morality is religion?

korts, fair warning (and you may already know this), but Kommish makes WTR100 look like an exemplar of cognitive superpowers.

[This message has been edited by Wet Willie (edited Sep-29-2006).]

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ElDuderino
Cool Runner
posted Sep-29-2006 02:14 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ElDuderino     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by offended by everything:
The ability of the Religious Right to get in side your head and among other things "make you want to puke" is an interesting phenomenon. Who knew a bumper sticker could cause such gastrointestinal distress.

I've never ascribe much power to them but they seem to send you and many others here off the deep end. I guess their psychological powers are in fact quite formidable.


Actually it's the inexplicable and formidable political power of people who have no clue what a secular representative democracy should look like is what makes me want to barf.

------------------
"You have just dined, and however scrupulously the slaughterhouse is concealed in the graceful distance of miles, there is complicity."
-- Emerson

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willmary
Cool Runner
posted Sep-29-2006 02:16 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for willmary   Click Here to Email willmary     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by monster2:
You are correct and I would imagine this holds true for people of any faith or even those who do not believe so you either have to let everyone have their way, or no one, so to speak. It wouldn't really be fair to just teach everything from a Christian view point.

I didn't mean that it needed to be taught from that view point but more that every individual understands their school lessons from their own point of view. For example, some raised on a farm will understand botany differently from someone in who lives in an apartment and whose yard is a parking lot.

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korts
Cool Runner
posted Sep-29-2006 02:16 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for korts   Click Here to Email korts     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by wanttorun100:
sure - man's bound to screw it up - heck even with religion we manage to screw it up with false ones


I had a friend in my last squadron who couldn't understand how I could live a moral life without belief in G-d. He couldn't wrap his arms around the idea that I had a moral and ethical code that is based upon what is good for society and for my fellow humans. He actually asked me what kept me from doing bad things if I didn't fear divine retribution.

Lack of religion does not result in amorality. Secular humanists absolutely have a moral and ethical code; it's called the Golden Rule. Perhaps you've heard of it?

If someone needs fear - fear of going to hell or fear of G-d's disapproval - to keep him from doing wrong, I'd argue that he is morally defective.

------------------
korts
Me

There's a sandwich in every beer.

"I bet your sink puts your vaginal hygiene in the shade." - muscatel1988

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wanttorun100
Cool Runner
posted Sep-29-2006 02:16 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for wanttorun100   Click Here to Email wanttorun100     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by DogMom:


One of the last things the master did was to tell his followers to prepare for trouble

quote:

Luke 22:36-38 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)


36 He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. 37It is written: 'And he was numbered with the transgressors'[a]; and I tell you that this must be fulfilled in me. Yes, what is written about me is reaching its fulfillment."

38The disciples said, "See, Lord, here are two swords."
"That is enough," he replied.


As for politics the Master had much more important things to worry about than that.

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korts
Cool Runner
posted Sep-29-2006 02:27 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for korts   Click Here to Email korts     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wet Willie:
korts, fair warning (and you may already know this), but Kommish makes WTR100 look like an exemplar of cognitive superpowers.


[This message has been edited by Wet Willie (edited Sep-29-2006).]


Yeah. I know. I've dealt with him before.

------------------
korts
Me

There's a sandwich in every beer.

"I bet your sink puts your vaginal hygiene in the shade." - muscatel1988

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kommish77
Cool Runner
posted Sep-29-2006 02:35 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for kommish77     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by korts:
Do you believe that the only road to morality is religion?


Negative, it is not the only road to morality.... but where does the road to morality lead?

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Wet Willie
Cool Runner
posted Sep-29-2006 02:35 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Wet Willie   Click Here to Email Wet Willie     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by korts:
I had a friend in my last squadron who couldn't understand how I could live a moral life without belief in G-d. He couldn't wrap his arms around the idea that I had a moral and ethical code that is based upon what is good for society and for my fellow humans. He actually asked me what kept me from doing bad things if I didn't fear divine retribution.

When humans created gods, they naturally put them in charge of everything important, including the ultimate enforcement of crimical codes. In the end, they figured, you'd still have to answer for deeds you got away with during your life on little ol' Earth, which is nothing but a preparatory phase for the real life they imagined (and reckoned must be fantastic, since, after all, no one had ever proven otherwise). The whole notion of hell-like places satisfies a certain conditioned blood lust: Here we can not only punish people while they're alive, but chase and hector them beyond the grave too!

The idea that morals are not inherent in biological comunities and must spring from external intelligence is an intuitive failure at every level. The only reason to believe that morals are God-given is because someone told you so and convinced you that you'd pay a dear price for questioning this. But it doesn't occur to people like Kommish that there are societies living on South Pacific islands that have never heard of Jesus or any other god who operate in the same fundamental way religiously "guided" societies do -- no killing, no stealing, et cetera.

Isn't it interesting that the ways in which the Christian god itself acts "immorally" (committing or abetting genocide, filicide, rape, slavery, torture, racism, more) is a perfect reflection of man's own desires run haywire? Anyone who follows the Bible to the letter in terms of moral guidance will wind up in federal prison.

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kommish77
Cool Runner
posted Sep-29-2006 02:39 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for kommish77     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by korts:
I had a friend in my last squadron who couldn't understand how I could live a moral life without belief in G-d. He couldn't wrap his arms around the idea that I had a moral and ethical code that is based upon what is good for society and for my fellow humans. He actually asked me what kept me from doing bad things if I didn't fear divine retribution.

Lack of religion does not result in amorality. Secular humanists absolutely have a moral and ethical code; it's called the Golden Rule. Perhaps you've heard of it?

If someone needs fear - fear of going to hell or fear of G-d's disapproval - to keep him from doing wrong, I'd argue that he is morally defective.


So do you decide what is right and wrong? Maybe some "right" things you do, I believe are wrong. Who gets to decide what is right and wrong?

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willmary
Cool Runner
posted Sep-29-2006 02:39 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for willmary   Click Here to Email willmary     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by korts:
I had a friend in my last squadron who couldn't understand how I could live a moral life without belief in G-d. He couldn't wrap his arms around the idea that I had a moral and ethical code that is based upon what is good for society and for my fellow humans. He actually asked me what kept me from doing bad things if I didn't fear divine retribution.

Lack of religion does not result in amorality. Secular humanists absolutely have a moral and ethical code; it's called the Golden Rule. Perhaps you've heard of it?

If someone needs fear - fear of going to hell or fear of G-d's disapproval - to keep him from doing wrong, I'd argue that he is morally defective.


I have an analogy for you. When you first teach your child not to hit or bite, you might first try slapping the back of his/her hand because he/she is too young to understand all the reasons not to hit or bite. Later they learn not to hurt others and other reason not to hit or bite.

I learned religious teachings at a young age about sin and hell, etc. My reasons to avoid doing wrong now is more about not hurting others and living the life God would want me to lead. Perhaps your friend is young in his faith journey?

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ElDuderino
Cool Runner
posted Sep-29-2006 02:48 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ElDuderino     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
There is an argument that societies that have a Supreme Being as the arbitor of Good and Bad are interested in passing the buck, or disengaging themselves from the responsibility of determining what they actually believe is Right or Wrong. "Well it doesn't feel Right but if my God says it's OK, then I'll do it."

I'm not sure I agree or disagree with this argument, but it's something to think about.

------------------
"You have just dined, and however scrupulously the slaughterhouse is concealed in the graceful distance of miles, there is complicity."
-- Emerson

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kommish77
Cool Runner
posted Sep-29-2006 02:51 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for kommish77     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wet Willie:
When humans created gods, they naturally put them in charge of everything important, including the ultimate enforcement of crimical codes. In the end, they figured, you'd still have to answer for deeds you got away with during your life on little ol' Earth, which is nothing but a preparatory phase for the real life they imagined (and reckoned must be fantastic, since, after all, no one had ever proven otherwise). The whole notion of hell-like places satisfies a certain conditioned blood lust: Here we can not only punish people while they're alive, but chase and hector them beyond the grave too!

The idea that morals are not inherent in biological comunities and must spring from external intelligence is an intuitive failure at every level. The only reason to believe that morals are God-given is because someone told you so and convinced you that you'd pay a dear price for questioning this. But it doesn't occur to people like Kommish that there are societies living on South Pacific islands that have never heard of Jesus or any other god who operate in the same fundamental way religiously "guided" societies do -- no killing, no stealing, et cetera.

Isn't it interesting that the ways in which the Christian god itself acts "immorally" (committing or abetting genocide, filicide, rape, slavery, torture, racism, more) is a perfect reflection of man's own desires run haywire? Anyone who follows the Bible to the letter in terms of moral guidance will wind up in federal prison.



I have to admit, it is nice to be able to come on here and know that I can get the final word from the man himself, the wonderful, all-knowing, Wet Willie. I used to "Google it" when I needed to know something, now I just "Wet Willie it".

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Wet Willie
Cool Runner
posted Sep-29-2006 02:56 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Wet Willie   Click Here to Email Wet Willie     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by kommish77:
Who gets to decide what is right and wrong?

Have you ever heard of the legislative branch of the U.S. government? If not, Google "Congress" or "American laws" (or run them through Wikipedia). It's a lot to sift through, but I know you catch on quickly.

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Tawan
Cool Runner
posted Sep-29-2006 02:58 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Tawan     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by willmary:
I'll take a stab at answering this. It's because Christians are Christians 24/7. It's not possible to check beliefs at the door when the school bell rings. It probably has not inpact on math class. But it certainly has an impact on the student's understanding of history. It also impacts geography and social studies.

agdobson asked an excellent question and you gave an excellent answer. Your answer makes me realize that it depends a lot on the characteristics of each religion and/or what one religion requires its followers to do and/or what (if any) the ultimate goal of practicing a religion.

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kommish77
Cool Runner
posted Sep-29-2006 02:59 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for kommish77     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by monster2:
You are correct and I would imagine this holds true for people of any faith or even those who do not believe so you either have to let everyone have their way, or no one, so to speak. It wouldn't really be fair to just teach everything from a Christian view point.

So we side with the Atheist view point? Hmmmm... Atheism is a belief system, maybe we should not allow it in school.

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monster2
Cool Runner
posted Sep-29-2006 03:11 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for monster2     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by kommish77:
So we side with the Atheist view point? Hmmmm... Atheism is a belief system, maybe we should not allow it in school.

I was not aware that "atheism" was taught or encouraged in any school systems, is it?

My point was that since not everyone can be accomodated in their beliefe that focusing on any one belief would be wrong. If the atheists started passing out flyers at school I am sure that would cause a serious ruckus, would it not? I am not against christians having meetings before or after school as long as other religions are allowed to do the same.

I do have one question though, what happens if there are gay students at school but the school allows a particular group that teaches that homosexuality is wrong, immoral and will send you to hell? Do you see why this could lead to problems?

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Wet Willie
Cool Runner
posted Sep-29-2006 03:14 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Wet Willie   Click Here to Email Wet Willie     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by kommish77:
So we side with the Atheist view point? Hmmmm... Atheism is a belief system, maybe we should not allow it in school.

Right, and "OFF" is a TV channel.

Do you believe in monsters under the bed, Kommish? Lots and lots of little kids do, so there must be something to it. If you reject this belief, you are an "amonsterist" and have therefore created a religious belief system. Taken further, you may not mention your amonsterism in school because this would be exactly the same as forcing someone to worship Jesus, Allah or Zeus.

See how easy these exercises in mindless equivocation are?

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wanttorun100
Cool Runner
posted Sep-29-2006 03:18 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for wanttorun100   Click Here to Email wanttorun100     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by monster2:
I was not aware that "atheism" was taught or encouraged in any school systems, is it?

My point was that since not everyone can be accomodated in their beliefe that focusing on any one belief would be wrong. If the atheists started passing out flyers at school I am sure that would cause a serious ruckus, would it not? I am not against christians having meetings before or after school as long as other religions are allowed to do the same.

I do have one question though, what happens if there are gay students at school but the school allows a particular group that teaches that homosexuality is wrong, immoral and will send you to hell? Do you see why this could lead to problems?


is the current culture of suppression those ignorant, biggoted, homophobic Christians at every possible turn in the skrools part of the Atheist Liturgy?

------------------
President Bush - BIRMINGHAM, Ala.

"Five years after 9/11, the worst attack on the American homeland in our history, Democrats offer nothing but criticism and obstruction and endless second-guessing,"

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