| Author |
Topic: Guide to world religions |
korts
Cool Runner |
 posted Apr-17-2006 02:52 PM
   
quote:
Originally posted by torque:
Ok...Einstein's statements aside, his thoery pointed out that there was a Big Bang. Now, what caused the Big Bang?
I don't know. But to say that because I don't know, G-d must have done it, is intellectually dishonest. Unless your definition of G-d is something akin to "all that I don't understand", and that G-d doesn't seem to fit cleanly into any of the conventional religions. Some would call it a cop-out. I'm not sure about much, really. I have to go to lunch now. I'll write more about this later! ------------------
korts
Me There's a sandwich in every beer. "I bet your sink puts your vaginal hygiene in the shade." - muscatel1988
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Diane95
Cool Runner |
posted Apr-17-2006 02:59 PM
quote:
Originally posted by colby5402:
If it's not "just genetics" then is there a free will above genetics that allows you to choose what you want to do and be? If so...where'd that come from? I'd like to know, personally, and since science hasn't got an answer for that, I'll figure it out using other methods.No, I don't think those things. But, what's the POINT of a moral compass, though, apart from God? Why would anyone do anything except out of self-interest? And yes, I do care why you act the way you do. It explains who you are! Your motivation is much more important than the action itself. "Better a wound from a friend than a kiss from an enemy." It doesn't diminish my life, or humanity in general. But it directly affects yours and what becomes of you. If I truly value you as I should, because you are part of God's great creation, and I don't care...well...I don't really believe what I say I do. The fact of the matter is, I DO care...that's why I'm expounding on what I believe. C
Colby - I want to continue this conversation, but SAHM duty calls. I'll get back to this tonight. Thanks for the thoughtful posts!
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pfunksbn
Cool Runner |
posted Apr-17-2006 02:59 PM
quote:
Originally posted by colby5402:
No, I don't think those things. But, what's the POINT of a moral compass, though, apart from God? Why would anyone do anything except out of self-interest?
C
Not sure I follow you. Is it the fear of God (or hell) that provides you with a moral compass? Selflessness is a preventative measure?
Being nice to other people makes the other people happy and it makes me happy. I still don't believe in God. I don't see the conflict there.
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colby5402
Cool Runner |
posted Apr-17-2006 03:14 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Diane95:
[QUOTE]
Colby - I want to continue this conversation, but SAHM duty calls. I'll get back to this tonight. Thanks for the thoughtful posts!
I hear you! Me too!!  Oh, and Pfunk..I don't behave out of fear. If you read my previous posts, you'll see. At least, I hope I was clear...maybe not.
C
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pfunksbn
Cool Runner |
posted Apr-17-2006 03:25 PM
Colby, many of your questions seem to be based around "why." Why are we here, what is the purpose of all this, etc. Why does there have to be a reason? Is it really that much better imagining that everything is all part of some "plan?" Is it worth any less if it just "is?"I do not want to imply that it is wrong to wonder about the "why," but I would like to posit that it is equally not wrong NOT to wonder about it.
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melitoo
Cool Runner |
posted Apr-17-2006 03:33 PM
Again, I can only speak from what I was taught and have learned...
quote:
Originally posted by cindyleigh:
I find the different directions the practice of Christianity has evolved confusion and fascinating. I wonder if it is because the word of god has been rewritten so many times and in so many versions...whereas in Islam the Qu'ran is the word..or has that been rewritten as well? There are Sunni and Shia. .
I believe most Christians feel that God "directed" the translating and recording of Bible so that it remains His word. I do not know if the Qu'ran has been "rewritten" or not...I was taught that it was written under Muhammad's instructions by his follower and cousin.In the class I've been taking we've been studying Sufism, which is another branch of Islam. It is fascinating. One of the guys in my class has been raised Sufi and his stories/perspective of Islam and Christianity have been so interesting and helpful. quote:
Originally posted by cindyleigh:
What bible versions do the different denominations use?.
I went to a Christian school and university, and we always used several versions. There are places on the internet that will give you verses in the different versions so they can be compared, or you can purchase a parallel Bible, which shows the different translations side-by-side which I think is very helpful. If I had to choose only one for personal use, I'd go with the New International Version. quote:
Originally posted by cindyleigh:
I know of the Old Testament, which I believe some think was written by Moses guided by God, others believe it was written by a group of elders over a few centuries. What about the New Testament?
I was taught that Moses wrote the first five(?) books with God's guidance. Other books are attributed to other figures.The new testament was written primarily by the named Apostle (Matthew, Mark, Luke and John all tell that person's account of the same story, more or less). Paul wrote many of the books to groups of believers in different locations (Romans, Corinthians, etc.). Other books are attributed to other figures. Of course, there are the gospels of Judas and Thomas that are not included in the Bible. I was taught that in the centuries after the death of Christ various councils determined what would be "canonized" and what wouldn't. Judas and Thomas were not included by these councils and so are not included in today's Bible. I haven't done much study in this area, but mean to do so eventually...there were highly revered spiritual leaders and followers of Christ that held beliefs very foreign to modern day Christianity. I'd like to know more about them and what they believed. quote:
Originally posted by cindyleigh:
Is there mention of Mohammad in the New Testament? I've read that in Islam there is recognition of Christ as a prophet.
Muhammad is not mentioned in the Bible and was not really recognized in the Christianity I was taught. I believe that in Islam the greatest evil is for a man to claim to be God....I know that is a significant sin in Sufism and believe it is standard throughout. Consequently, Muslims take issue with Jesus claiming that he is the Son of God and is one with God, but do believe he was a prophet. Again, this is only what I've been taught or have studied. There are posters here that know much, much more than I about these topics and I would be very interested to see their reponses to your questions.
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colby5402
Cool Runner |
posted Apr-17-2006 03:38 PM
quote:
Originally posted by pfunksbn:
Colby, many of your questions seem to be based around "why." Why are we here, what is the purpose of all this, etc. Why does there have to be a reason? Is it really that much better imagining that everything is all part of some "plan?" Is it worth any less if it just "is?"I do not want to imply that it is wrong to wonder about the "why," but I would like to posit that it is equally not wrong NOT to wonder about it.
I don't think it's wrong to not think about it. If things just "are" and I die, then my life won't have been lived in vain thinking that there were a plan. But if there IS a plan and I lived my life thinking that things just "are"...then I've probably missed out on a lot. I honestly just don't think that the general population never questions why. We're too smart to just wander the face of the planet and not wonder what the point is. C
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xerosaburu
Cool Runner |
posted Apr-17-2006 03:39 PM
Man, are people ignorant when they ask things like "Is Muhhamed in the Bible?"He wasn't around until the fifth century @570 and the last book of the Bible was written at the close of the first. The Quran is vitiated with errors as to biblical interpretation. The idea they have is that the paraklete (or holy spirit) was a person who would come and that this person was Muhammed.
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Wendell56
Cool Runner |
posted Apr-17-2006 03:42 PM
quote:
Originally posted by xerosaburu:
Man, are people ignorant when they ask things like "Is Muhhamed in the Bible?"He wasn't around until the fifth century @570 and the last book of the Bible was written at the close of the first.
What about people who think the year 570 was in the fifth century? 
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xerosaburu
Cool Runner |
posted Apr-17-2006 03:55 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Wendell56:
What about people who think the year 570 was in the fifth century?
They don't know sh*t. 
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Diane95
Cool Runner |
posted Apr-17-2006 03:57 PM
quote:
Originally posted by colby5402:
I don't think it's wrong to not think about it. If things just "are" and I die, then my life won't have been lived in vain thinking that there were a plan. But if there IS a plan and I lived my life thinking that things just "are"...then I've probably missed out on a lot.I honestly just don't think that the general population never questions why. We're too smart to just wander the face of the planet and not wonder what the point is. C
I'm here for a quick minute, checking on marathon times, so let me say this: I myself have wondered about the why for many years, in many ways. I have come to a place where I am comfortable with the idea that the answer is probably unknowable. But more importantly, I have come to the very well considered conclusion that "why" is not the right question. The question is "how" -- how to live mindfully, compassionately, day after day. The why -- no matter how you slice it -- comes down to, because I know it is the right way to act. In my heart. As a matter of faith or belief, if you will. But, again, a chosen belief. I choose to believe this because it seems to me, all things very well considered, the best way to live.
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torque
Cool Runner |
posted Apr-17-2006 04:02 PM
quote:
Originally posted by korts:
I don't know.But to say that because I don't know, G-d must have done it, is intellectually dishonest. Unless your definition of G-d is something akin to "all that I don't understand", and that G-d doesn't seem to fit cleanly into any of the conventional religions. Some would call it a cop-out. I'm not sure about much, really. I have to go to lunch now. I'll write more about this later!
I don't know if you caught what I said after my initial post on the Big Bang topic, I stated that this doesn't provide exclusive proof that there is a Deity however, it certainly provides a convincing argument. The bits and pieces used to fill in the spaces are sometimes referred to "God parts". To use God to complete the missing puzzle pieces isn't uncommon nor more is it for say Darwinists to use the same technique to further their cause of evolution. Every discipline uses assumpumtions to fill in the gaps that are not understood.
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torque
Cool Runner |
posted Apr-17-2006 04:11 PM
What I should add here is that people do accept that everything that we know suddenly exploded out of nothing. But will scoff at the very idea of immaculate conception. I find this puzzling to say the least.
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colby5402
Cool Runner |
posted Apr-17-2006 04:12 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Diane95:
I'm here for a quick minute, checking on marathon times, so let me say this: I myself have wondered about the why for many years, in many ways. I have come to a place where I am comfortable with the idea that the answer is probably unknowable. But more importantly, I have come to the very well considered conclusion that "why" is not the right question. The question is "how" -- how to live mindfully, compassionately, day after day. The why -- no matter how you slice it -- comes down to, because I know it is the right way to act. In my heart. As a matter of faith or belief, if you will. But, again, a chosen belief. I choose to believe this because it seems to me, all things very well considered, the best way to live.
Okay, I understand that. So, here's another set of questions, I guess. Why would you want to live "mindfully, compassionately" day after day? How did that desire get there? I propose that these things are imputed to us via our Creator. Just as words don't have any meaning unless we give them meaning...Here's an example from biology. DNA is what tells our bodies what to do. My DNA says my eyes change between blue and grey. What gave my DNA that power? Who decided that the combination of XYZ DNA produces blue/grey eyes? DNA itself? Does DNA have God-like powers to not only come out of nowhere but to decide what all of it's parts and millions of combinations mean all by itself? To self-impute meaning? The "how" is the question that drives me to the "why"... To ME, at least, those are very important questions that will determine HOW I live. If I just live in the HOW without any explanation as to WHY then...it doesn't make sense. Take another real-life example. I do tax work, as you all know. If I just knew how to calculate a few things without understanding why they worked that way...well, if a law changed, then I'd have to start from scratch all over again to learn another how. Instead, if I know why, then the change is easy because I understand what the purpose of the calculation itself is. Anyway...I guess I'm just a WHY girl. I know you're busy...you're great to talk with and I appreciate the way you handle yourself in discussions. It really is a testament to your belief. C
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Ray Andrews
Cool Runner |
posted Apr-17-2006 04:28 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Diane95:
I myself have wondered about the why for many years, in many ways. I have come to a place where I am comfortable with the idea that the answer is probably unknowable. But more importantly, I have come to the very well considered conclusion that "why" is not the right question. The question is "how" -- how to live mindfully, compassionately, day after day.
But, see, the "why" is the key to the "how." Jesus said to them again, "How hard it is for those who trust in riches to enter the kingdom of God. It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." And His disciples were shocked and said, "Then who can be saved?" Jesus glanced around at them and said, "WIth men this is impossible, but not with God; for all things are possible with God." (Mark 10:24-27) How does a camel go through the eye of a needle? If at all, it would be one molecule at a time. How does any person live a godly life? If at all, it would be one moment at a time. And how can it be done at all, if a rich person can't do it? By entire reliance on God's power alone and no reliance whatsoever on ones own power and resources. Not in your own strength, "For it is God in you both to will and to work for His good pleasure." (Philippians 2:13) Jesus said, "I am the vine, you are the branches. Whoever lives in Me and I in him bears abundant fruit. However, apart from Me you can do nothing." (John 15:5) In other words, "give up the funk." Religion is worthless.
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cindyleigh
Cool Runner |
posted Apr-17-2006 05:22 PM
quote:
Originally posted by xerosaburu:
Man, are people ignorant when they ask things like "Is Muhhamed in the Bible?"He wasn't around until the fifth century @570 and the last book of the Bible was written at the close of the first. The Quran is vitiated with errors as to biblical interpretation. The idea they have is that the paraklete (or holy spirit) was a person who would come and that this person was Muhammed.
Even this atheist knows that the bible is full of prophecy..and as you were no help I did a simple google search...apparently I am not the only one considering this question... http://answering-islam.org.uk/Gilchrist/muhammad.html
http://www.m-a-t.org/muhammad-in-bible.htm
http://www.layevangelism.com/qreference/islam/deut18.htm
http://righttruth.typepad.com/right_truth/2006/03/mohammed_in_the.html
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/6808/Muhammad.html
[This message has been edited by cindyleigh (edited Apr-17-2006).]
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CallipyG
Cool Runner |
posted Apr-17-2006 08:26 PM
quote:
Originally posted by cindyleigh:
One thing that is striking is the interconnectedness between the Abrahamic religions (Judaism, Christianity and Islam). Is it the shared history that puts these groups into constant conflict, or the differences?
It's almost never the "religion" itself. It's the fight over resources and $$ and, thus, power. "I want your land / oil / trade route / spices / minerals / etc... and, uh, god says they belong to me!" <--- using the god rationale was a good way to motivate ignorant people to join the army to take the desired resources.
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Arrojo
Cool Runner |
posted Apr-17-2006 09:37 PM
quote:
Originally posted by torque:
What I should add here is that people do accept that everything that we know suddenly exploded out of nothing. But will scoff at the very idea of immaculate conception. I find this puzzling to say the least.
One is based on observable facts and data. Some people refer to this as 'science'. The other is based on conjecture.
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pfunksbn
Cool Runner |
posted Apr-17-2006 09:41 PM
quote:
Originally posted by colby5402: ...DNA is what tells our bodies what to do. My DNA says my eyes change between blue and grey. What gave my DNA that power? Who decided that the combination of XYZ DNA produces blue/grey eyes? DNA itself? Does DNA have God-like powers to not only come out of nowhere but to decide what all of it's parts and millions of combinations mean all by itself? To self-impute meaning? The "how" is the question that drives me to the "why"...
The italics are mine...Colby, I totally get what you are saying, and they are questions that I have also considered. Please indulge me and let me play devil's advocate for a moment. (No pun intended). One of the things I don't agree with/believe in is that "God" is a "superperson." For all of time, natural phenomena have been attributed to a single entity (or in some cultures multiple beings), and this (or these) being(s) always seem to have human qualities or emotions. You always hear about a "kind, benevolent" God, or a "vengeful God," etc. This anthropomorphization always has puzzled me. I guess it is not a stretch when you consider the line "God made man in His own image" but personally, I think the Bible was written by men, and that this sentence comes from the anthropomorphization. It certainly makes it easier to "understand" God when you think about him/her/it in terms of human concepts. Even attributing a gender to an entity such as God is supposed to be seems kind of ridiculous to me. This is part of what I don't like about most organized religions. There is so much that people purport to KNOW. Each religion seems to have all the answers--live this way, wear these clothes, do this, do that, and you are guaranteed to get into heaven (or hell). "God wants you to do" X, Y and Z. How the heck does anybody know what God really wants? And how can they assume that "he" WANTS anything? "Want" is a human concept. I didn't mean to go off on a tangent...I don't have any answers, either.
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TropicalEsq
Cool Runner |
posted Apr-18-2006 10:34 AM
I keep wondering why religious folks so often insist upon anthropomorphising the universe, and Colby's post brought that question up in my mind, again. Here, take a look at what she wrote: quote:
Originally posted by colby5402:
DNA is what tells our bodies what to do. My DNA says my eyes change between blue and grey. What gave my DNA that power? Who decided that the combination of XYZ DNA produces blue/grey eyes? DNA itself? Does DNA have God-like powers to not only come out of nowhere but to decide what all of it's parts and millions of combinations mean all by itself? To self-impute meaning?
I find this fascinating. What is the need to attribute intelligence or purpose to all things? Oh, and as for what caused the Big Bang, what if I said it occurred as the result of cosmic donuts colliding in space? Would that be any more far-fetched than "God did it?" One more question: Why is it fair to ask "What came before the Big Bang?" or "What created the universe?" but it's not exactly the same thing to ask "What came before God" or "What created God?" Seems to me these are equivalent inquiries...
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Wendell56
Cool Runner |
posted Apr-18-2006 10:49 AM
quote:
Originally posted by TropicalEsq:
One more question: Why is it fair to ask "What came before the Big Bang?" or "What created the universe?" but it's not exactly the same thing to ask "What came before God" or "What created God?" Seems to me these are equivalent inquiries...
It's mind boggling to me to think that, no matter what one believes, something or some entity has always existed or has no beginning. That something may be matter, energy, or a Prime Mover, but it seems hard to comprehend something with no beginning in the same way we think of eternity.
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cindyleigh
Cool Runner |
posted Apr-18-2006 10:53 AM
quote:
Originally posted by colby5402:
Who decided that the combination of XYZ DNA produces blue/grey eyes?
Random mutation, natural selection, and millions and millions of years
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xerosaburu
Cool Runner |
posted Apr-18-2006 10:57 AM
quote:
Originally posted by TropicalEsq:
One more question: Why is it fair to ask "What came before the Big Bang?" or "What created the universe?" but it's not exactly the same thing to ask "What came before God" or "What created God?" Seems to me these are equivalent inquiries...
Because you're making the assumption everyone makes. That all effects have a cause. That may be our experience, but that alone doesn't validate it. In any case the idea that time has always existed is another assumption. There are ideas and thoughts that simply cannot be thought with the apparatus available. God thoughts are these. So we make our own fictions. Some people have secular fictions while others have fictions with intelligence as the bottomless root.
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TropicalEsq
Cool Runner |
posted Apr-18-2006 11:53 AM
quote:
Originally posted by xerosaburu:
Because you're making the assumption everyone makes.That all effects have a cause. That may be our experience, but that alone doesn't validate it. In any case the idea that time has always existed is another assumption. There are ideas and thoughts that simply cannot be thought with the apparatus available. God thoughts are these. So we make our own fictions. Some people have secular fictions while others have fictions with intelligence as the bottomless root.
Actually, time has "always" existed, since the term "always" is dependent on the existence of a time framework. And you missed my whole point in questioning why people anthropomorphize the events of the universe. Saying we can't think certain thoughts with our brains is unsupported and is merely like throwing up one's hands and saying "God did it." We can't know that we can't think every thought, until every thought is identified and all time has passed. Sure, we have limitations in perception and perspective, but that too is a function of time. Who is to say that we will not eventually overcome those limitations? Time, it seems to me, is a function of space. There can be no time before space. Asking what happened before the universe existed is nonsensical, unless there is a greater frame of reference beyone our universe (such as a multiverse?) in which time can separately be described. If there is -- and I'm guessing there is, and if correct then at least one multiverse theory would help to explain the relative weakness of gravity by positing that the gravity of an object exists only partly in this thrree-dimensional universe and partly in higher dimensions -- then you might be able to answer the question "what existed before the big bang," but you'll eventually come up against the same dilemma when you run out of universes. This is a function of my comment about the colliding cosmic donuts. One theory suggests that in an 11-dimensional multiverse individual universes (some of 3 dimensions, like ours; some of other numbers of dimensions) float about like vibrating cosmic donuts (multi-dimensional superstrings), called membranes, and where they collide it causes a "big bang" creation of another universe. The same theory holds with the notion that foam or bubbles that collide cause a new "big bang" to occur. Our own universe could be an island of three dimensions floating in a sea of higher dimension, like a donut floating in the sea. But there could be membranes with five, six, seven or more dimensions coexisting and mingling like weird cosmic donuts. I think about this theory (called M-Theory) when these God discussions come up, becuase the discussions are almost always limited to concepts of Einsteinian space. And I wonder: is what we call "God" really a description of the multiverse and functions of quantum mechanics set forth in an anthropomorphic manner?
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torque
Cool Runner |
posted Apr-18-2006 12:04 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Arrojo:
One is based on observable facts and data. Some people refer to this as 'science'. The other is based on conjecture.
Oh, I couldn't agree more with you, but still, it's a super natural event...something from nothing. Similar to the first life form....a living organism created from materials that aren't. People will readily accept this theory of evolution and again dismiss the immaculate conception.
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