| Author |
Topic: Guide to world religions |
pfunksbn
Cool Runner |
 posted Apr-17-2006 11:41 AM
  
Since this is still pretty civil, I will jump in.Whatever you want to call it, I don't believe in what most people seem to think of as "God." I can't say there is one, I can't say there isn't one, as I have no proof either way. Torque, you kept saying you had given some kind of proof, but I didn't see any here, and I did read all 5 pages. The Bible is not proof to me. I have no problem with Jesus as a possible historical figure, but whether or not he was the actual son of God is not for me to say. Since you are pushing so hard, Torque, I will tell you where I come from with my "belief" (or lack thereof). My mom grew up in Texas, the Bible Belt, and couldn't stand it. So she puposely raised me w/o religion. I was not baptised, or given any religious training. We did secular Christmas/Easter (gifts and candy), but there was no Christianity in it. I did learn a bit about the basics of Christian and Jewish faiths from friends and TV, etc. When I was older, I did explore more on my own. I have been to Catholic, Lutheran, Methodist, Quaker, and Jewish services, among others. While I have not studied all of the world's religions in-depth, no person or book or other source has yet been able to "convince" me that there is a God. My stepmother and brother are Jewish (and my brother, who is a lot younger, just had his bar mitzvah). My brother is very proud of his Jewish heritage and his faith is very strong. And I think that is great. I just don't happen to share it. I have no problem with others believing what they do, and there are some pieces of religion that I do appreciate--things like the social togetherness that pomp and ceremony and ritual can inspire. But that specifically has less to do with God actually existing and more to do with people bonding over a common belief (which in this case is God). I am not sure why you seem to think people have to tell you why they think the way they do. I think it is great that you found religion and find comfort in it. But please don't think you are going to convert the rest of us, too. That's what it seems like you are trying to do here. You keep trying to push people into a corner and "trap" them into "admitting" something. Get over it. No one has to defend their belief or lack thereof to you.
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makeda
Cool Runner |
posted Apr-17-2006 11:50 AM
quote:
Originally posted by CheryG:
You should google "sleep paralysis". When experiencing sleep paralysis, people often report feelings of an evil being present in the room, sometimes sitting on their chest. I've had it happen, and it is an incredibly powerful feeling indeed, and is the only thing that has ever shaken my "belief" in the non-existence of the supernatural. In the end, it turned out to be just a blip of the mind during an improper awakening.
Sleep paralysis is fascinating! I have it from time to time. When I believed in the Devil, I thought the devil was coming after me. Now that I don't, oddly enough, it's never the devil. 
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Fionn mac Cumhail
Cool Runner |
posted Apr-17-2006 11:52 AM
quote:
Originally posted by makeda:
Now that I don't, oddly enough, it's never the devil.
It's me... ------------------
-Fionn- Finn MacCool
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cindyleigh
Cool Runner |
posted Apr-17-2006 11:54 AM
quote:
Originally posted by offended by everything:
I wonder if there's a correlation between childlessness and atheism?
That clearly hasn't been the case in China!
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torque
Cool Runner |
posted Apr-17-2006 11:55 AM
quote:
Originally posted by pfunksbn:
Since this is still pretty civil, I will jump in.Whatever you want to call it, I don't believe in what most people seem to think of as "God." I can't say there is one, I can't say there isn't one, as I have no proof either way. Torque, you kept saying you had given some kind of proof, but I didn't see any here, and I did read all 5 pages. The Bible is not proof to me. I have no problem with Jesus as a possible historical figure, but whether or not he was the actual son of God is not for me to say. Since you are pushing so hard, Torque, I will tell you where I come from with my "belief" (or lack thereof). My mom grew up in Texas, the Bible Belt, and couldn't stand it. So she puposely raised me w/o religion. I was not baptised, or given any religious training. We did secular Christmas/Easter (gifts and candy), but there was no Christianity in it. I did learn a bit about the basics of Christian and Jewish faiths from friends and TV, etc. When I was older, I did explore more on my own. I have been to Catholic, Lutheran, Methodist, Quaker, and Jewish services, among others. While I have not studied all of the world's religions in-depth, no person or book or other source has [b]yet been able to "convince" me that there is a God. My stepmother and brother are Jewish (and my brother, who is a lot younger, just had his bar mitzvah). My brother is very proud of his Jewish heritage and his faith is very strong. And I think that is great. I just don't happen to share it. I have no problem with others believing what they do, and there are some pieces of religion that I do appreciate--things like the social togetherness that pomp and ceremony and ritual can inspire. But that specifically has less to do with God actually existing and more to do with people bonding over a common belief (which in this case is God). I am not sure why you seem to think people have to tell you why they think the way they do. I think it is great that you found religion and find comfort in it. But please don't think you are going to convert the rest of us, too. That's what it seems like you are trying to do here. You keep trying to push people into a corner and "trap" them into "admitting" something. Get over it. No one has to defend their belief or lack thereof to you.[/B]
I can respect this answer because you have obviously done some research into the "why's" of what you believe. You're right about not having to defend themselves over the reasons they believe what they believe, but then again, they don't have to engage in the discussion. It isn't too mush to assume that if someone takes a position then they should be able to defend that position.
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cindyleigh
Cool Runner |
posted Apr-17-2006 12:04 PM
quote:
Originally posted by torque:
It isn't too mush to assume that if someone takes a position then they should be able to defend that position.
Torque, please share with us your conversion story. What was it that brought you from atheist to agnostic to theist?
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melitoo
Cool Runner |
posted Apr-17-2006 12:08 PM
quote:
Originally posted by fredurie:
http://web.singnet.com.sg/~alankhoo/God-idea.htm"QUESTION: So if Buddhists don’t believe in gods, what do you believe in? ANSWER: We don’t believe in a god because we believe in man. We believe that each human being is precious and important, that all have the potential to develop into a Buddha – a perfected human being. We believe that human beings can outgrow ignorance and irrationality and see things as they really are. We believe that hatred, anger, spite and jealousy can be replaced by love, patience, generosity and kindness. We believe that all this is within the grasp of each person if they make the effort, guided and supported by fellow Buddhists and inspired by the example of the Buddha. As the Buddha says: No one saves us but ourselves,
No one can and no one may.
We ourselves must walk the path,
But Buddhas clearly show the way."
[This message has been edited by fredurie (edited Apr-17-2006).]
I'm having difficulty getting past this one...are you implying that Buddhists are atheists?
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makeda
Cool Runner |
posted Apr-17-2006 12:09 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Fionn mac Cumhail:
It's me...
Sweet dreams are made of this
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DogMom
Cool Runner |
posted Apr-17-2006 12:09 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Sue in NYC:
[b]The Religions Agnosticism: Maybe shiit happens, and maybe not[/B]
quote:
Originally posted by offended by everything:
I wonder if there's a correlation between childlessness and atheism? Or said another way -- I wonder if there is something about being an atheist that makes you not want to have children.Increase in secularism = decrease in birth rates. Seems logical and intuitive to me. It also seems that relative to the general population we are blessed with an overabundance of atheist on this particular site. I wonder why that is...
But we are not blessed by an overabundance of childfree people here so your theory is poo poo. quote:
Originally posted by pfunksbn:
The Bible is not proof to me. I have no problem with Jesus as a possible historical figure, but whether or not he was the actual son of God is not for me to say.
1 I am agnostic. While it would be nice to know that there is something out there, possibly a benevolent supreme being with an unfortunate cosmically weird sense of humor, I don't see anything that cannot be explained by science. (evolution, etc) I don't discount that there could be a harmonious combination of "God" and science but I don't believe in what most Christians point to as their proof of God. The bible. So while I might want to believe in God, I don't believe in the bible. And thus I am an atheist or agnostic.
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melitoo
Cool Runner |
posted Apr-17-2006 12:12 PM
quote:
Originally posted by cindyleigh:
That clearly hasn't been the case in China!
So are Taoism and Confucianism also considered atheism?
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CharlesRiverBlowfish
Cool Runner |
posted Apr-17-2006 12:14 PM
quote:
Originally posted by cindyleigh:
What is the relevance of this to a discussion of religion? None, to the atheist*, as there is no evidence as to the existence of god that can withstand scientific scrutiny. The theist argues that proof is found in faith..but the essence of faith is belief without proof.
Well put, Cindy! This is what is making me ponder torque's position in this thread, and I did not articulate this particularly well in my previous post. The idea of offering "proof" and "evidence" to change an atheist's mind, or to solidify an agonistic's position, seems ludicrous. The foundation of religious belief is faith in the absence of empirical evidence: the theistic believer does not require proof for his or her faith. Why, then, should such empirical evidence suddenly become available to the atheist? Even as a thought exercise, the premise that some deus ex machina could swoop into the scene and thereby convert atheists into believers appears to contradict the concept of faith. Nice example with Pruisner, too! Prions are very odd macromolecules. ------------------
Dr. Joan Bushwell's Chimpanzee Refuge [This message has been edited by CharlesRiverBlowfish (edited Apr-17-2006).]
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maryk
Cool Runner |
posted Apr-17-2006 12:14 PM
That is a good point about the Origin of the Universe.Disclosure: I am a theist. And, I'll admit that I am wowed by intellect, and if someone like Einstein says he believes in God, I trust in his brains more than my own. My tendency is to give too much weight to the last argument I've heard.
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maryk
Cool Runner |
posted Apr-17-2006 12:20 PM
quote:
Originally posted by CharlesRiverBlowfish:
The foundation of religious belief is faith in the absence of empirical evidence: the theistic believer does not require proof for his or her faith.
We're not talking about faith, though. We're talking about why someone would choose to have faith. Or not.
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torque
Cool Runner |
posted Apr-17-2006 12:22 PM
quote:
Originally posted by cindyleigh:
Torque, please share with us your conversion story. What was it that brought you from atheist to agnostic to theist?
I guess my story is similar to others. I was brought up in an atheiestic household...not just atheistic but belligerently atheistic. The hatred my father showed towards religion was a religion all of it's own. I followed suit..because that's what kids do. No reasonable explanation for my father's hatred of the church other than "they're hypocrites". When I grew older, I realised that many of my father's views were developed by ignorance. Does Archie Bunker ring a bell? I started questioning what views I adopted from him, and not just atheism. I discovered that he was wrong on so many things and that I couild actually form an opinion of my own if I did the research. I guess you could say that I went from atheist to agnostic once I discovered that my father's "truth" was not resonably researched. I started thinking that maybe there was something to this God thing and like Korts, I struggled with finding Faith. I'm skeptical at the best of times and very careful what I believe in. But the more I looked to come to a conclusion that there ids no faith, the more it seemed to rear it's head. The pinnacle came after a few series of events that left me pondering my life. Some of your best learning is done when you're in crisis. What those events are doesn't matter. What does matter is that it forced me to examine an area that I was truly uncomfortable with and reason why I was uncomfortable with it. What ever "it" was, was essentially pounding on my door. I relented and open the door and haven't looked back since. But, I am determined to understand why I believe in what I believe. Like you, I need proof. In my journey, I have found more than enough proof to come to my conclusions. Don't know if that helps at all.
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xerosaburu
Cool Runner |
posted Apr-17-2006 12:24 PM
quote:
Originally posted by CharlesRiverBlowfish:
Well put, Cindy! This is what is making me ponder torque's position in this thread, and I did not articulate this particularly well in my previous post. The idea of offering "proof" and "evidence" to change an atheist's mind, or to solidify an agonistic's position, seems ludicrous. The foundation of religious belief is faith in the absence of empirical evidence: the theistic believer does not require proof for his or her faith. Why, then, should such empirical evidence suddenly become available to the atheist? Even as a thought exercise, the premise that some deus ex machina could swoop into the scene and thereby convert atheists into believers appears to contradict the concept of faith.Nice example with Pruisner, too! Prions are very odd macromolecules.
Where then is the empirical evidence for macroevolution? There is none that qualifies as empirical evidence. There is inductive forensic evidence that suggests possibilities, but nothing testable.
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cindyleigh
Cool Runner |
posted Apr-17-2006 12:26 PM
quote:
Originally posted by CharlesRiverBlowfish:
Nice example with Pruisner, too! Prions are very odd macromolecules.
A memorable seminar, standing room only, Pruisner's visit to Stanford..I think it was 1998...just after he returned from Stockholm. Paul Berg, Joshua Lederberg ...all the critics...in the front row....applauding vigorously. What a morning!
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torque
Cool Runner |
posted Apr-17-2006 12:26 PM
quote:
Originally posted by maryk:
That is a good point about the Origin of the Universe.Disclosure: I am a theist. And, I'll admit that I am wowed by intellect, and if someone like Einstein says he believes in God, I trust in his brains more than my own. My tendency is to give too much weight to the last argument I've heard.
Yes! This is my thoughts exactly! When a man with the brains the size of the universe talks, I listen.
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cindyleigh
Cool Runner |
posted Apr-17-2006 12:32 PM
quote:
Originally posted by melitoo:
So are Taoism and Confucianism also considered atheism?
No, I wouldn't think so. From this site:
http://www.religionfacts.com/taoism/fastfacts.htm ...there are 20 million Taoists in China, and 5-6 million Confucianists. I am unclear if Confucianists are atheists, I don't know that much about the religion but from what I've read it doesn't appear to be a theist-based...more like a life philosophy...so perhaps they are not mutually exclusive?
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melitoo
Cool Runner |
posted Apr-17-2006 12:35 PM
quote:
Originally posted by cindyleigh:
No, I wouldn't think so. From this site:
http://www.religionfacts.com/taoism/fastfacts.htm ...there are 20 million Taoists in China, and 5-6 million Confucianists. I am unclear if Confucianists are atheists, I don't know that much about the religion but from what I've read it doesn't appear to be a theist-based...more like a life philosophy...so perhaps they are not mutually exclusive?
So why was China used as an example disproving a correlation between atheism and lower birthrates? I'm so confused... 
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colby5402
Cool Runner |
posted Apr-17-2006 12:37 PM
quote:
Originally posted by CharlesRiverBlowfish:
The foundation of religious belief is faith in the absence of empirical evidence: the theistic believer does not require proof for his or her faith. Why, then, should such empirical evidence suddenly become available to the atheist?
I'm not quite sure where you got that idea, but I think it's a little silly. The proof that those who believe in a god might need and/or have can vary across a whole realm of religious beliefs, from Islam to Hinduism to JW to Christianity...And generally, those who believe in a god of some sort, feel that the evidence for that god is compelling enough to make the judgement that said god exists. Evidence, mind you, is not proof. Just as in a court of law, Amy might produce evidence pointing the finger at a particular culprit (which is different than having a video of the perpetrator commiting the crime ie: proof) drawing a jury of that person's peers to convict because the evidence is compelling enough to draw a conclusion. Just as in the same vein, those who do not believe in a god think that there is not enough proof for a god to exist...well, you'd hope they came to that conclusion because they really LOOKED. It's an important enough question that it should be researched...because if, in fact, there is a god...well...a lot can hang on the answer to that question. C
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cindyleigh
Cool Runner |
posted Apr-17-2006 12:41 PM
quote:
Originally posted by melitoo:
So why was China used as an example disproving a correlation between atheism and lower birthrates? I'm so confused...
Because there are 1.3 billion people living in China...the majority of which are atheist, not Taoism not Confucionist not theist. China has a birth rate crisis, despite over a billion atheists. Are they really atheists? Who knows for sure, as the state suppresses religious practice. It just popped into my mind as an example of a country that suppresses religious practice, the majority of its population practices no religion (in the open)..and it has a population crisis. I don't know about birthrate, as the state also suppresses family planning with its one-child policy. I can give myself as another example. I'm an atheist, yet I want to have children.
edited to add...the original correlation I referred to was between atheism and childlessness..not birthrate.
[This message has been edited by cindyleigh (edited Apr-17-2006).]
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xerosaburu
Cool Runner |
posted Apr-17-2006 12:42 PM
If you get down to it, the evidence of science is a presumption that because others experience an analogue closely resembling that of others, that this is "real".Nothing else to be done about it though, because one would have to present an argument for the rejection of the consensible over something else. Then you have the true atheist who is a person who claims to know what "real" is. Smart people are more likely to be philosophically agnostic, and practically something else knowing all the while the impossible nature of knowing versus being.
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Zapatista
Cool Runner |
posted Apr-17-2006 12:44 PM
quote:
Originally posted by maryk:
That is a good point about the Origin of the Universe.Disclosure: I am a theist. And, I'll admit that I am wowed by intellect, and if someone like Einstein says he believes in God, I trust in his brains more than my own. My tendency is to give too much weight to the last argument I've heard.
"It was of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but expressed it clearly. If something in me which can be called religious then it is unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as science can reveal it" Albert Einstein-The Human Side "I do not believe in the immortality of the individual , and I consider ethics to be an exclusively human concern with no superhuman authority behind it." The Human Side "I cannot imagine a God who rewards and punishes the object of his creation, whose purposes are modeled after our own- a God in short, who is but a reflection of our own human frailty. Neither can I believe that the individual survives the death of his body, although feeble souls harbor such thoughts through fear or ridiculous egotisms." Albert Einstein - NY Times April 19, 1955. All quoted in Atheist Universe by David Mills page 21.
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pigeye
Cool Runner |
posted Apr-17-2006 12:48 PM
quote:
Originally posted by colby5402:
Just as in the same vein, those who do not believe in a god think that there is not enough proof for a god to exist...well, you'd hope they came to that conclusion because they really LOOKED. It's an important enough question that it should be researched...because if, in fact, there is a god...well...a lot can hang on the answer to that question.C
It is only an important question to those defending their belief.
It is those who believe who have the burden of proof if they would
go forth and convert the heathen.
You have your faith, good for you. Your faith, however, does nothing to convince me that I should share in it. Finally, I am a little confused at the premise of this discussion. Why is there the tacit assumption that those who would explain the world rationally have thought about it less than those who blindly accept the word of those who wrote the bible? (Or torah, or quran, or <your religious text> ). Can someone explain that for me?
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grimupnorth
Cool Runner |
posted Apr-17-2006 12:52 PM
Old joke, I know, but...Did you hear about the dyslexic agnostic insomniac? He sat up all night wondering whether there was a dog.
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