posted Mar-15-2006 11:17 AM         

quote:

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Originally posted by bdot:
I've been doing my running with walk breaks. The program I have followed has been working to 10 mins run followed by 1 min walk. I've only been at the 10 min stage for 2 weeks now (just starting the second week actually). Before that my HR was staying lower. I can usually can on a conversation or at least short sentences when in the 158-160 range.

I don't know what my max is but my resting is 52-54 (as measured the last two mornings).

When I say I am not fit I should qualify that. By a runners standard I am not fit but I am not a complete couch potatoe . I walk my dog each day for an hour, occasionally hike and do yoga once a week.

Thanks for the advice...for now til I get more accustomed to running I think I will stick with the conversation pace and work on getting my HR down and slowing down if I can without walking.

B.

[This message has been edited by bdot (edited Mar-15-2006).]

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That sounds like a plan. Just make sure your pace is truely easy at 160 HR. It's easy to run on the border of aerobic and anaerobic but this is a mistake. You wouldn't be doing anything for either system. Maybe consider starting at say 157 HR just to be on the safe side.

When I started running I had to do a run,walk method. In time you can stretch the run intervil's and shorten the walk intervil's till your just running.

Good luck and plz post your progress.

posted Mar-15-2006 11:47 AM            

Iguanamind,
No doubt. Our temperatures in S Tx are shooting up rapidly. It will be some slow running the next six months down here. I think of it this way, I'm going to see some huge drops in pace come Oct/Nov.

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Clay
 

posted Mar-15-2006 12:00 PM         

quote:

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Originally posted by runawayjesse:
I started MAF training 11 weeks ago and my MAF is 144(was 145 but I got older), that is true MAF 180-age-10 for me. I never had to walk but my pace was always very slow. In 11 weeks and mileage increase by nearly 100% my pace went nowhere. I'm starting to toy with the notion that it is possible to "run to slow". I have no evidence to back this up at this point though I'm working on it. Now, on week 12 I upped my HR zone by 10 bpm and I'm going to hold it their for awhile to see if my pace improves.I'm obvisiously faster than before. The effort at this HR is still very easy and the pace is wayyy better. I guess I'm in search of a HR zone where I see improvement.

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I ran exclusively at or below MAF (for me 180-37=143; I set my HRM alarm for 138) for 10 weeks, doubling my mileage to ~40mpw in the mean time. My MAF tests got slower Frustrated, I set my HRM alarm for MAF+5=148. In the six weeks since then, I have maintained the same weekly mileage, and my pace at MAF has improved by 0:45/mile. I still usually stay right around MAF except on hills. But by increasing the effort slightly I have found a "sweet spot" where my running is still aerobic (easy breathing, no need for carbs, can go forever) and I am improving. I plan to stick with it as long as I see improvements.

Good luck.
 

posted Mar-15-2006 01:38 PM         

quote:

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Originally posted by msteed:
I ran exclusively at or below MAF (for me 180-37=143; I set my HRM alarm for 138) for 10 weeks, doubling my mileage to ~40mpw in the mean time. My MAF tests got slower Frustrated, I set my HRM alarm for MAF+5=148. In the six weeks since then, I have maintained the same weekly mileage, and my pace at MAF has improved by 0:45/mile. I still usually stay right around MAF except on hills. But by increasing the effort slightly I have found a "sweet spot" where my running is still aerobic (easy breathing, no need for carbs, can go forever) and I am improving. I plan to stick with it as long as I see improvements.

Good luck.

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Thanks for that info. This adds truth to my theory.

posted Mar-15-2006 01:42 PM         

Iguanamind, yes absolutely. I find my hr drops about 4 beats a minute if I can run in shade for a while instead of in direct sun when its hot.
 

posted Mar-15-2006 07:33 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by KudzuRunner:

On my long runs this spring, I've several times spent 63 minutes--most of the return leg on a 15 miler--averaging HR 174, which is right at half-marathon intensity, but (because I'm untapered, training hard, already had 7 miles under my belt, yada yada) averaging only 7:40-7:50 pace, which is signnificantly slower than actual half marathon race pace.

I know I've asked you this sort of question once or twice before, but I don't think I had this much HR/pace evidence to lay before you. So here's my question: Given what you've learned, which is clearly a great deal, how would you tweak--or radically revise--what I'm doing. Would you, for example, have me simply lighten way the hell up, so that I'm running the same mileage on the same days, but so that I'm sticking to some HR in the 140s on those three longer days? Is that Maffetone in a nutshell?

I'm all ears.

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Hey Kudzu! At the risk of making an almost silly generalization,
in the context of this form of training,
I will identify two categories of runners (there are way more, but
for this discussion, two will suffice!): (1) those who are relatively
new runners or those who have never done any solid training which
results in aerobic fitness and (2) those who have established
aerobic fitness after years (or possibly shorter) of good training
habits, whether through focused low HR basebuilding or even
more traditional multi-zone training where at least a good percentage
of mileage has been done "reasonably well" into the aerobic zone.
Right now, I am somewhere between these two. (Why I say that
is a long story in itself that I'll skip for the moment.) Suffice it to
say I think you are in category (2). One way to identify a true
"category (2)" type would be to answer this question: if you
were to run right up at MAF pace every single run, do you think
that would be pushing it too much? (in this case, define MAF pace
for yourself as being the pace at a HR of 185-age). For example,
take fredurie or DanMoriarty. From what I've gathered from their
posts, (a) they have a pretty decent pace at MAF and (b) they'll
run in multiple zones, some well below MAF HR, some right
around it, and some above to certain degrees (for tempo or vo2max
benefits). My guess is that you're the same way. Assuming
you're in category (2), I wouldn't change what you are doing at all
(at least not based on any advice from me!) - multi-zone training
with progression runs are probably the best way to go. I'm a big
believer that after one has the aerobic fitness that progression
or fast-finish long runs are some of the best things you can do
for endurance. For category (1) people, it is generally a struggle
to go slowly enough just to stay at MAF (and MAF for them would
be 180-age or possibly less by 5 or 10 beats, to add insult to
injury). For them, running anything less than MAF would be a wog
at best and in many cases a very slow walk. Now, if you felt that
you were between category (1) and (2), if you feel like experimenting,
you may just want to try putting in all mileage for a couple of months
at strictly less than the MAF value, track your pace and avg HR per
mile, and see where it takes you. If you are closer to (1), I would
say that you may see some nice adjustments occurring, but if
you are closer to (2), I don't know what you would see - you may
actually slow down (?). I am quite sure that any slow down would
just be temporary and once you resumed racing and/or training in higher
zones, you would at least return to where you were (I would guess
you would probably see some improvement in either way as long
as you put in some good mileage, perhaps with some increase).
Now, let's look at what I have done. For the most part, I have been
doing all of my training below MAF, in all sports, with pretty
high volume (you can be the judge of that from my running log).
Then I mix in races, mostly marathons and ultras, with a 10 miler
here or there. Also I avoid carbs before and during runs (I don't
think "during" really matters, just before). The more time I
spend below MAF, the more progress
I make. However, keep in mind that I've only been running for
2 1/2 years and I feel like I'm making up for a lot of aerobic
conditioning that I have skipped along the way. I don't think
that you are comparable, but it certainly would be interesting
to see how a few months of exclusively low HR training would
affect your running and whether there is any improvement you
can possibly make that way. I've been doing this as a bit of
a science experiment honestly, so I'm very interested in all
different types of data sources (perhaps guinea pigs is a more
honest term). I'm not sure I exactly answered your question,
but I certainly don't want to pretend that I'm qualified to tell you anything
outside of what I've done for myself. I'm happy to try to iterate
and experiment with what you are doing, based on what I've
learned. I assume you've mulled through the "FAQ" I cobbled
together.

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Low Heart Rate Training FAQ
 

posted Mar-15-2006 08:14 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Liam:
Hi all,

As the Moderator of this forum, I have been asked by the powers that be to keep an eye on the number of threads that we keep on teh server, as against archiving material (It is all still available, just archived). From time to time I archive off threads that haven't been read for a while, and to be fair, no one seems to notice.

This thread obviously takes up a LOT of server space due to its size, and I have been conscious of its importance as well as its length. Would anyone have a big objection if we froze the current thread and started an updated one. This would serve two purposes. One, it would free up some space on the Live System, and two, it would save people reading through a complete epic to get to the important points.

ANy thoughts anyone?

Thanks,

Liam

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I have absolutely no problem with it. It's a 9-headed beast.
We can start out a new thread just with the FAQ and go from
there. Also, I really don't like how angry it makes some people,
so if we were to put it into a nice, little compact package, and
start the questions anew, maybe it will relieve some of that.

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MyRunningLog

MyStuff

Low Heart Rate Training FAQ
 

posted Mar-15-2006 08:19 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by iguanamind:
Has anyone else noticed a significant difference in heart rate when the temperature is higher. The last two runs I did, including yesterday, it was very difficult to keep my heart rate under my MAF. The temperature was mid 80's both days. Today, I get up and I had a hard time keeping my heart rate up. The temp was in the mid 50's.

---

Absolutely - heat, humidity, hills, and other environmental factors
will all raise heart rate at a given pace, sometimes very significantly.

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Low Heart Rate Training FAQ
 

posted Mar-16-2006 08:15 AM            

Ive been trying to following the program for the past several months and all was going well. When the cold hit I took 4-5 days off. Its my second day back and my training pace has climbed nearly 1mpm (5.5 mile route - Slow pace)

Is it typical to loose that much aerobic fitness in a week? Or simply an indication that the body is still "stressed" and not 100%?

Being in the early stages of Maffetone, maybe I have a long way to go to be aerobically fit?

Any thoughts or comments?

posted Mar-16-2006 05:37 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by labhiker:
Has anyone noticed a significant change in running/training under your target MAF after a bought with the common cold (runny nose, sore throat, cough, ...)?

Ive been trying to following the program for the past several months and all was going well. When the cold hit I took 4-5 days off. Its my second day back and my training pace has climbed nearly 1mpm (5.5 mile route - Slow pace)

Is it typical to loose that much aerobic fitness in a week? Or simply an indication that the body is still "stressed" and not 100%?

Being in the early stages of Maffetone, maybe I have a long way to go to be aerobically fit?

Any thoughts or comments?

---

Yes, both from the time off and lingering effects from the illness.
My last nasty cold resulted in about 3-4 weeks of catching back up.
And, furthermore, in the early stages of such training, you won't be
"robust," hence you will be easily set back.

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Low Heart Rate Training FAQ
 

posted Mar-16-2006 06:56 PM         

Ran 7.8 miles today outside around the park. Did it 31 seconds a mile faster than last week under similar circumstances. Last weeks run was only 6.5 miles so that makes me feel even better. ( I tacked on an extra mile or so around the neighborhood, just because I was feeling strong).

Edited to say both runs were at exactly the same average heart rate of 124. Maf is 131, I try to keep it at 126 or less.

[This message has been edited by Cashmason (edited Mar-16-2006).]
 

posted Mar-16-2006 08:49 PM            

I did the same thing, started at MAF-5 for one week then went to MAF for a month. Finally went to MAF+5 and found that same sweet spot. One thing about it for me is that before, when I doubled mileage in 10 weeks, I got hurt. Now, I have to remind myself to keep the buildup in mileage slow, otherwise I would add 10 miles/week. That never could have happened at 7-9m/m pace training.

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Clay
 

posted Mar-17-2006 03:18 AM            

I intend to Lock this thread on Sunday, so if there is any info you require from it, please extract and start a new thread. Once locked, I will archive the thread, and the new one can continue the important work.

Thanks again, and keep on running,

Liam
 

posted Mar-17-2006 03:19 AM            

I intend to Lock this thread on Sunday, so if there is any info you require from it, please extract and start a new thread. Once locked, I will archive the thread, and the new one can continue the important work.

Thanks again, and keep on running,

Liam
 

posted Mar-17-2006 05:23 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Liam:
Thanks Jesse et al...

I intend to Lock this thread on Sunday, so if there is any info you require from it, please extract and start a new thread. Once locked, I will archive the thread, and the new one can continue the important work.

Thanks again, and keep on running,

Liam

---

sounds good, let's do it. I'll start a new one this weekend trying
to summarize a few things as a start.

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posted Mar-17-2006 09:17 AM         

I wrote in a few weeks ago for guidance on doing the aerobic HR training program. Even though I'm an active triathlete, I clearly had no aerobic fitness at that point. My MAF is 151, so I've spent almost 4 weeks walking 13-min miles and riding my bike on my mag trainer at HRs no higher than 142. I haven't gotten any faster on the treadmill (HR still shoots up when I 'run'), and I don't know about the bike because I can't measure speed on the trainer, but...

I did a time trial earlier this week, and I ran at a pace 45 to 60 seconds faster per mile than I had been before!!! Granted it wasn't a very long run, but I'm taking this as proof this method is working! Thanks for all your help.

 

posted Mar-18-2006 01:35 AM         

5 mile run on treadmill tonight at fastest pace since I started Maf. Progress still being made.
 

posted Mar-18-2006 06:20 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Cashmason:
Yay Kelly, good job!

5 mile run on treadmill tonight at fastest pace since I started Maf. Progress still being made.

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Nice to see positives, both on your side and Kelly's! I'll start something
a new later today ...

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posted Mar-19-2006 03:57 AM            

Liam